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2023-10-10 09:35 by Karl Denninger
in Musings , 1018 references Ignore this thread
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.... and I don't care.

Postulate: There are no rules of war.

Corollary: There are no "war crimes."

Oh, I know, the molly-coddling UN-style bullshit is that there are.  "Geneva Conventions" and all that.  429 "articles" of "law" related to war and every single one of them is self-serving bullshit.

War is Hell.  War is supposed to be Hell and anything that makes it less-Hell is Satanic in its implication, implementation and thought process because doing that incites more war.

War should be recoiled from, not embraced.  Papering over the horror of it with threats of "prosecution" is not only a joke its a trope and should get everyone involved hanged right here and now so as to prevent the next war.

Humanity and technology are largely responsible for this, incidentally, and that's really nobody's fault.  People have minds, they use them, this results in innovation and the consequence of that is detachment between action and result.  Its no different, really, than what goes on in my home or yours every single day.  You don't stoke a fire manually nor open and close windows to regulate the temperature in your house or apartment; you push a button or turn a dial and a machine takes care of it.

A hundred or so years ago it didn't work that way.  If it was cold you made a bigger fire in a fireplace or stove.  If it was hot you opened windows (and hoped there was a breeze.)  You did it, you paid attention to whether what you did was sufficient, and then you stopped when it was.  You learned over time, from infancy in fact, how to stoke and build said fire so it was sufficient but not 95 degrees in your house, and to keep the coals going overnight so in the morning you still had some residual heat and didn't have to light it again.  If you wanted light at night you lit a candle or oil lamp. When you were done you blew it out.  You didn't dare leave either unattended lest they burn your house down.  Today you flip a switch and all that happens if you leave it on is that you get a somewhat-higher bill from the power company.

Well, war was the same way.

If you wanted to kill people in size you had to go do it face-to-face. You had to see the horror of what you were doing. Plunge the sword or dirk into the other guy's body, feel it go in, see the expression on his face and watch him die.  Of course you had to do this while he was trying to do the same to you, which adds quite a bit to the drama, does it not?

Innovation seems to come with war first.  Go figure; nobody likes losing a war because historically it has meant losing your life.

Pushing a button on a bombsight, mashing the FIRE button while staring at a radar scope or sniping someone from 1,000yds out is a whole different thing than going man-to-man (mounted or not) with swords, pikes or dirks.  Today we don't even look through the bombsight -- we program a GPS or IMU in the front of a missile, push a button, often from afar, and then from a satellite high above the earth watch the resulting wreckage.  We don't even see the dead bodies those acts generate most of the time.

I have no respect for anything in the Geneva Conventions or any other so-called "laws of war" and if you manage to incite me sufficiently that I decide to go to war there will be no rules whatsoever, except for me seeking to make you dead before you can make me dead.  So-called "rules" or "laws" of war are directly contrary to everyone's interest in not engaging in war in the first place and were enacted and put in place by assholes who never have to face the horrors of their own acts and are trying to sanitize them so you'll allow said assholes to commit more of them without turning on said leaders yourselves.  Every government official involved in that and in "respecting" same deserves to be forced onto the front line with nothing more than a dagger or bayonet; no ammunition, grenades or other similar things that will give them the ability to inflict death at a distance beyond the reach of their own hand.  If you really want or are willing to engage in war then do it hand-to-hand and deal with the horrors of blood running down your arms and legs -- and hope that is the other guy's, but it might quite-possibly be yours.

Let's think this through at a very-basic level: Does the prospect of your wife, daughter or son who decides to go fight being raped up the ass and then decapitated by the opposing party in a war make you more or less likely to engage in said war in the first place?


In the context of the current mess over in Israel and Gaza I do not care if Israel flattens Gaza to a literal smoking ruin.  War sucks and like it or not that's what this is and Hamas made the decision to initiate hostilities, so the IDF may as well get on with it.  They gave fair warning to "uninvolved" civilians to get the Hell out of there.  They made that decision and I respect it.  It is a fact that derogating or outright ignoring everyone's right to self-defense and the defense of their loved ones is why the Hamas attacks were successful and why Hamas was operating in Gaza to begin with.  There were and have been two groups there over the last decades; those civilians who support Hamas and those who were defenseless as a direct result of government policy prohibiting "at will" arms ownership.  The former are complicit and the latter were prohibited from slaying the terrorists in advance of their operation and it was the Israeli government that did the prohibiting because they consider "Gazans" to be less-than-citizens.  Evidence?  They call those who live there "Gazans", not Israelis!  Does Israel call those people living in Jerusalem Jerusalans?

But in fact Israel's government effectively did disarm its own citizens because of this very position, that is unforgiveable and entirely and reasonably charged against the Knessset and Bibi himself.  Every single one of the dead is dead because they had no arms with which to resist and those not interested in such happening in Gaza had no way to effectively assault the attackers before they breached the lines from behind and it is the Israeli government that made it that way.  Going into a town to rape, kidnap, murder and plunder where everyone has a gun is a losing act; every window becomes an elevated platform from which you are shot at from all sides!

Unless, of course, there are no guns because they're illegal and everyone is a "nice, law-abiding citizen" -- except those who aren't really "citizens" so we can't actually let everyone buy and have all the guns they want because "some are lesser" and might use them to bad ends.

The problem with such niceties is that the invading horde, terrorists or those who are intent on "gimme dat!" don't give a wet crap about laws, any more than common criminals do.  A government thus can either let the people even the odds as they see fit, declaring that in fact everyone is equal in the most-basic of ways or it is a fact that said government deliberately posts up their citizens as shooting gallery targets.

Human history is full of brutality, like it or not, and so is nature. Not all animals kill only for food; the common housecat kills birds for both food and sport, and will do so even if well-fed at home.  We claim to be "superior" but we're not; we're animals, and the "superior" often is really nothing more than "kill it because it thinks differently than I do" in respect to religion, government structure or simply because someone thinks you're ugly -- or have a fat wallet.

Denying facts does not make them untrue and in the context of war it just makes you dead.

That which reduces the experience of the horror of war makes it more likely that you'll engage in war.

And if you don't think that's objectively bad, well, let me be the first to call you the monster.

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Imhotep 1k posts, incept 2013-07-18
2023-10-10 09:54:54

I guess it's time for me to bring a weapon or 3 back from the farm. I do have a handgun at the house, but would like to have one of my ARs there as well.

Mjeff87 4k posts, incept 2021-11-22
2023-10-10 09:54:57

Not an "unpopular" stance with me one little bit. I wonder if bayonet training is even done in BCT in this day and age...or if any of our little snowflakes even know what one is to begin with.

Israeli government is now allowing citizens to draw long rifles from their "training centers" and issuing 50 whole rounds to households. It's something, but too little/too late. And what good does 50 or even 500 rounds do for someone who doesn't train to shoot?

Si Vis Pacem, para Bellum

You'll get less than you desire, but more than you deserve
Jerry_d 42 posts, incept 2022-05-12
2023-10-10 09:55:10

agree -- but watching the mental gymnastics people are doing, especially compared to the Ukraine conflict still going on, is actually popcorn worthy.

And I am DYING to see what Joan says!

Ocdawg 569 posts, incept 2019-03-14
2023-10-10 09:55:19

Karl, I agree with every word

IMHO, the worst part has been the complete lack of response from the senile C-cksucker-in- Chief... a new low I thought not possible. An utter disgrace and embarrassment to the world

One of my best friends (life-long) is 2nd generation from Israel... if he asked me anything, I am there. It is time, once and for all, to do the RIGHT thing:

AN EYE FOR AN EYE, nothing less

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."- George Carlin
GO DAWGS!!! Quietly reloading.....
Invisiblesun 882 posts, incept 2020-04-08
2023-10-10 09:55:34

Let it proposed that any war supported by American assets requires 20% of Congress to join the fight with their boots on the ground, where ever the battle is taking place.

Now let's see for real how enthusiastic Congress is about supporting war.
Off_grid99 57 posts, incept 2022-02-03
2023-10-10 09:58:44

Spot on KD! As a former nuclear missile jockey, I fully understand this. I was one of few guys trained to enter coordinates and push the "launch" button during the Cold War with the Soviets. Glad I never had to use my training. I agree, I never understood the concept of a war crime. Does the method of killing really matter in the end, dead is dead. War crimes only apply to the loser. I moved to the middle of nowhere hoping to get away from most of civilization, but that seems impossible anymore. Seems our government just wont leave people alone anymore, and because I'm a middle aged white guy, I'm now the enemy. Hell no, I'm not going to sit back and take it.
Winesorbet 1k posts, incept 2010-08-23
2023-10-10 10:10:58

This Ticker is 100% spot on. Being saying this forever. It's the reason we keep having these skirmishes instead of long lasting peace.

BTW, there's a classic Star Trek on this exact topic. Watch it, it's brilliant.
Greenacr 991 posts, incept 2016-03-15
2023-10-10 10:11:07

America does not win wars anymore because we do not embrace total war. Karl nails it again.
Village-idjit 1k posts, incept 2010-06-09
2023-10-10 10:12:01

My dad went thru the Battle of the Bulge in Europe. He never talked about it, though I've read many books about the cold, snow, fog, the German onslaught. He had his Sherman tank knocked out by a German 88 anti tank weapon. He and one other guy escaped out the piss hatch at the bottom of the tank. Yeah... frostbite, bayonet work, machine guns mowing guys down.. war is not neat and clean, and we've forgotten that.
Boredfree 2k posts, incept 2021-09-15
2023-10-10 10:13:08

I told my brother who fought in Iraq (and other places) that whatever he did, stay alive. If that means doing something awful and illegal to remain breathing, so be it.

Come home alive and we will deal with consequences then.

How is it the political class which came about from protesting the Vietnam war are the biggest cheerleaders for these modern conflicts?

I'm quite surprised by the number of posters who want Isreal to 'win' this. I say the world would be better off if the whole region was converted to glass.

Fuck the warmongers on both sides. Fuck you and fuck your stupid violent gods.

People who lust for war are lower than gangbangers and should be treated accordingly.

The problem is most people want to point a finger rather than their thumb when dealing with challenges.
Shadowmask 6k posts, incept 2021-05-24
2023-10-10 10:54:15

While it sucks for everybody over there right now, I don't care who wins this one.

Don't worry war hawks, we have an invading army inside our borders already. And if things don't go well, it won't be other people's kids dying, it'll be you and yours.

The learning curve for being dead is steep, but everyone gets it down pat on the first go usually.--Thystra, March 28, 2023
Aquapura 4k posts, incept 2012-04-19
2023-10-10 10:54:26

Yeah, war isn't pretty. Civilans do end up as collateral damage, whatever that means. Should the Red Dawn come to the heartland I sure as shit will be picking up arms as the alternative doesn't sound very appealing and dead-is-dead so might as well take some of the f'ers with me, right?

As for the bleeding hearts who talk about humanitarian crisis, cry me a fucking river. Read the history of Germany immediately post-WWII. The civilan death didn't stop because the shooting ended. People starved because the country was destroyed. I wasn't around then but I'll take a good guess that many of the allies that fought the Nazis didn't have much care post war that Germans were suffering. I'm all for having compassion within reason, but the "west" has become cucks over the past 70 years. To the point that we are slowing being destroyed because of our can't we all get along worldview.

While I had reservations about our escapades in Iraq back in the 00's, if it truly was a "war for oil" like people said - then just fucking admit it and go take the fucking oil. To the victor go the spoils. Same applies to any other conflict. In my lifetime I'm not really sure what war is. It's been far different than what I learned about in Western Civ. My bet is the nooze will show some dead Palestinians and pressure will come down on Israel and this little skirmish will end without any resolution. Rinse and repeat. We would all be better off in the long run should these conflicts get to the full and nasty resolution.
Jdough 300 posts, incept 2012-05-04
2023-10-10 11:28:30

@Aquapura said:
Read the history of Germany immediately post-WWII. The civilan death didn't stop because the shooting ended. People starved because the country was destroyed. I wasn't around then but I'll take a good guess that many of the allies that fought the Nazis didn't have much care post war that Germans were suffering

I can confirm this from what I heard from relatives who lived through the war and post war period in Germany. There were also Nazi remnants who were actively attacking perceived collaborators with the Allied occupation forces. Actual Nazis, not the mean tweet kind. They also told me that even into the 1950's many houses didn't have heat / utilities.

Explain it to me like I took an experimental genetic therapy for a donut - Anonymous
Unwashed 193 posts, incept 2023-06-23
2023-10-10 11:29:05

100% agree, but I also believe the soldiers know exactly what you are saying.
I join the US Army in 1978 and became a medic and they issued me a Geneva convention card to show I was a conscientious objective, lol and this was in the wake of Vietnam. My answer, smiley. I was attached to an Armor Division and my vehicle was an APC, we trained 6 months a year, not consecutively, prior to going to field I was in line at the armory to draw my .45 sidearm and M16. FUCK them.
Andrew 314 posts, incept 2014-09-24
2023-10-10 11:29:19

Israel's gun laws make NooYawkCity look like a Libertarian Paradise.
You can apply for a Permit to own a pistol.
It's an arbitrary process, and subject to bureaucracy, one can be denied for even having been accused of a crime.
And that's "ownership".
There's talk of loosening rules, and that includes a Permit holder to be allowed 100 rounds instead of 50.
(shooting at the range is fine but "take home/use" ammo is limited currently to 50.)
The only bonus, an "ownership license" is a de facto "carry permit".
But there's a range of places one can't carry to as it is.

The stat I heard was something like 1% of people there are Permitted guns.

Every other gun you see is in the hands of conscript soldiers (who carry their M4 on and off duty), security guards, and on duty soldiers.
Once one leaves military service, they can apply for a Pistol Permit, but there's no guarantee it'll be granted.
Oh, bonus, it's said if you "use" said handgun your license is revoked and you get to start over in the "MotherMayI" OwnerShip Process.
Andrew 314 posts, incept 2014-09-24
2023-10-10 11:30:15

Joancrawford 935 posts, incept 2013-10-14
2023-10-10 11:30:28

My, my, how quickly the little dust up in Ukraine disappeared from the news cycle! Another war has been declared and I'm already seeing the "I stand with Ukraine" Fartbook profiles being replaced with the Israeli flag.

I'm completely disinterested in this latest excuse to send more of our money to yet another Jewish squirmish. The Palestinian backlash was inevitable in that they've endured mass ethnic cleansing from their homeland which is surprisingly never reported by our (((media))).

I was talking to a friend yesterday and asked her what Zelinsky must be thinking now that it appears the endless stream of cash has been momentarily interrupted. She said, "Well, we CAN'T just let Putin take over Ukraine! They'll just keep expanding their land grab!"

I didn't say anything about the Ukranians voting to be part of Russia. No, we must "stand with Ukraine".

Vietnam was what I consider the first arm chair war, with daily news programs televising day to day combat in Laos. Just another version of the childhood practice of "Let's you and him fight!"

Yeah, as long as I don't get my shins scraped or a black eye, I'll grab the popcorn while you two go at it.

I'm tired of being led around by the nose to support any of these assholes on either side. My only concern is if/when you come for me or mine, I'm going to inflict the massive amount of pain and casuality I can muster before I give up my last breath.

So when Miss Lindsay Graham and Chuckie Schumer tell me I need to support the latest cause, my response is, "Yeah, why don't you grab a bayonette and join the cause while I get more butter for my popcorn."

Time may be a great healer, but it's a lousy beautician.-Dorothy Parker

Boys don't make passes at girls with fat asses.-slightly modified DP
Baltgayveteran 328 posts, incept 2021-09-16
2023-10-10 12:13:56

@Aquapura: "Yeah, war isn't pretty. Civilans do end up as collateral damage, whatever that means...."

How about if the Russkies fire a missile at the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense building in Kiev. Across the street is a coffee shop which is within the blast radius of the missile. Did the Russkies intend to kill the people at the coffee shop? Hard to say since military people might be there to get coffee, but basically the Russkies don't care if any civilians there die. War is Hell
Optimus2861 92 posts, incept 2009-12-16
2023-10-10 12:42:19

Not just post-WWII Germany. Post-WWII Japan, too.

WWII was the last time that the western world fought a TRUE war. As in, we will kill everyone and bomb and destroy and burn and pillage everything in our path to victory until our enemies cry, "Uncle" and maybe even a little bit past that. The horrors of the Nazi and Imperial Japanese regimes made it easy to cast it all in a righteous light both during and after the fact, but make no mistake, the Allies did not fight the Axis with kid gloves or with a hand tied behind their backs.

Every war since then, whether Korea or Vietnam or Iraq I or Iraq II or Afghanistan or wherever, has had the western nation involved tying itself into knots to avoid fighting that total war. Partly because of nuclear MAD, of course, but also because the western world has completely lost the stomach for it.

Maybe Israel just rediscovered theirs. We shall see. If Gaza is a smoking pile of death and rubble by this time next year and Israel has loudly told any objectors to same to pound sand then they have. If Israel can actually achieve that outcome that is; I have no insight on that. Anything short of that outcome would seem to be undesirable to say the least on their part.
Workerbee23 301 posts, incept 2021-09-15
2023-10-10 12:42:56

Saw pics of some of the dead party goers, read a few eyewitness accounts. Some might call it morbid curiosity but I need to remind myself of the COST. A mother somewhere is having to see her child's body ripped apart with broken limbs, the only "crime" being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I'm too old to be drafted, but this mess is coming TO us and I need that visceral reminder of the costs. It seems to me the ME has become inured to the horror they inflict on each other. It's been going on for so long that it's just part of daily life and while that saddens me, it doesn't stimulate a desire to "help". They need to clean up their own litter box just like we do.

Westerners have become completely detached from reality. TV and movies have sanitized the reality of what death actually looks like, especially violent death. They only show you bodies that are covered with a sheet. Don't want to disturb people by showing what bullet wounds actually do to the body. Don't want to shock people by showing them the human body in the rictus of death. Do you think any of the Asian countries have this problem? They live in countries where violence is used on them by their govts EVERY DAY. As pitiable as the J6 debacle is/was, those folks are sheltered with 3 meals and a working shower/toilet. Think those "amenities" are a given in other places? Not a chance in hell.

One of my most profound memories is from looking through a Life book on WWII (I must have been in the 7th grade), seeing the mass graves, filled with emaciated, naked bodies. They were almost unrecognizable as human. Pretty profound at age 11. I can't imagine the cruelty that is needed to put someone through such a thing. That anyone could survive such treatment is truly amazing. Viewing such things should make you THINK about how a person can get to such a place, what kind of person you have to be to condone and/or participate in such behavior. TG is right, we have forgotten that at base, we are animals and most aren't smarter than the average bear.

Divorcing acts of violence from the repercussions of such actions is how we got here. Why else do you think Vets are loathe to talk about their experiences? They can't delete those memories of what they were required to do or witness, they are stuck living with them. Hence the immense volume of psychiatric and addiction problems they have.
I know I would do just about anything to defend my family. But the rest of this cesspit we call a country? How can I justify the damage I would be doing to myself for the sake of the fucking idiots who got us here in the first place? Maybe that is the demarcation line for those who carry the fight. Some can mentally justify and others cannot. Not a judgment, just an observation. Each psyche is built through our moral upbringing and life experiences.
My husband has the right view: if I can't have a gun, NO ONE gets one (true equality!)
If you want me or mine to fight, your ass needs to be 2 steps in front of me.
If congress or the assholes running the office of the president want to "fund" anyone, I want to see their personal donations. Congress can set up a little gofudme acct and brag about how much of their own money they're willing to give up for their "cause".

Otherwise, they can FUCK RIGHT OFF

Nadavegan 976 posts, incept 2017-05-03
2023-10-10 12:43:38

"I have no respect for anything in the Geneva Conventions or any other so-called "laws of war" and if you manage to incite me sufficiently that I decide to go to war there will be no rules whatsoever, except for me seeking to make you dead before you can make me dead. "

I have said this for years, which is probably why I am left to hanging around here for like-minded people :). People in real life don't think these things through and therefore default to "nice" or "polite". I have stated before - and this comes from someone who lives in the South and is at best tepid towards "Northern Aggression" - what Sherman did probably saved countless lives.

"In the context of the current mess over in Israel and Gaza I do not care if Israel flattens Gaza to a literal smoking ruin."

And vice versa. I. Do. Not. Care. How many civilians were killed, nor how many Americans were killed or captured. Unless and until we take care of our own borders and territory, science will not be able to develop an instrument with enough sensitivity to detect the shit that I give about all of this.
Tedstriker1809 37 posts, incept 2020-05-15
2023-10-10 12:43:42

This is the irony/hypocrisy that formed the basis of Apocalypse Now, when the Army needed to murder Col. Kurtz because he was too effective at winning.

"War Crimes" is only a method by which to identify combatants who are too good at their jobs and may upset the planned execution of a never-ending war.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and yu have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them" -- Frederick Douglass
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-10-10 12:48:22

Exactly @Workerbee23.

You piss me off enough that I actually go to war, that is, I'm not committing a criminal act and I'm not defending myself or loved ones from aggression -- I have gone to war -- and you can take all your "laws and rules of war" and fuck right off.

If getting you submit means I tear people apart and stack the torsos and limbs separately, so be it. If it means I stick the dagger in your chest face-to-face, so be it. If it means I blow your entire fucking town to bits and pieces of babies go flying, so be it.

Yeah, that's shitty. Well, duh. Of course its shitty. War is the most-shitty thing you can do! If you don't like that (and only a psychotic ASSHOLE does) then don't get people pissed off enough that they're willing to do it.

Cheapening what war IS leads to more wars because you've tried to take the horror out of it. That's backwards. The horror of war SHOULD BE in your face and it used to be before all our modern technology EACH AND EVERY TIME someone engaged in it. That's the BEST deterrent -- the certain knowledge that IF YOU DO IT it had better be worth it because you're going to have to deal with that horror.

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."
Miker 49 posts, incept 2022-01-26
2023-10-10 13:04:57

I'm assuming all hostages taken will all be sacrificed.

Just an observation, not a judgement. I mean....what else can be done? It's war. Wrong place, wrong time.
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