Let's Burn A Bridge....
The Market Ticker - Cancelled - What 'They' Don't Want Published
Logging in or registering will improve your experience here
Main Navigation
Sarah's Resources You Should See
Sarah's Blog
Full-Text Search & Archives
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions. For investment, legal or other professional advice specific to your situation contact a licensed professional in your jurisdiction.


Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility; author(s) may have positions in any firm or security discussed here, and have no duty to disclose same.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

The Market Ticker content may be sent unmodified to lawmakers via print or electronic means or excerpted online for non-commercial purposes provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media, to republish full articles, or for any commercial use (which includes any site where advertising is displayed.)

Submissions or tips on matters of economic or political interest may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Considering sending spam? Read this first.

2022-09-16 13:53 by Karl Denninger
in Editorial , 481 references Ignore this thread
Let's Burn A Bridge.... *
[Comments enabled]

So CDC, NIH and others are over-reach and bullshit extraordinaire.

I was asked to speak on this briefly today.  And did.

Then the conversation went toward "smart meters" and the overtones of "5g."

Jesus, cut the shit folks.

So-called "smart meters" are nearly all Zigbee-style devices which is a quite-common option for home automation.  This is a mesh technology and typically runs in the same bands as your WiFi router does, with less power in terms of ERP (effective radiative power) than your cellphone -- and not by a little either, given the wild difference in distance between the device and you.

The reason the power companies use this is because it can be certificate-based for security and thus is quite secure from interception or tampering, which is a really big deal when you're talking about people's power bill never mind being shut off if you don't pay.  While they could have designed their own why re-invent what already exists and is available to anyone who wants to use it when that is perfectly-suitable to the task and quite secure?

Here's an ARRL document on them, which is entirely accurate by the way.  902 Mhz is very close to the Z-wave US frequency (908 Mhz) and I've had that stuff all over my house for over ten years.  You probably have too, since it was one of the earlier "cordless phone" frequencies (nowdays most are on 2.4Ghz.)

FCC power requirements limit such a meter to one watt of RF power.  For comparison your cellphone is tower-controlled as to power level but, because you walk around with it near and on your body (which attenuates the signal thus can cause the power required to go up) its limited to 600mw, or 0.6w, which is the maximum for a handheld device.

A common ham radio HT or "walkie talkie" has both a 1W and 5W setting.  I own two.  My ham "base" transceiver has a base power level settable of up to fifty watts but the power I'm allowed to run depends on the band I'm operating on and, depending on the band and the power limits associated with amateur radio use on same I can run a linear amplifier behind that and boost the power to ten or more times that level.

I also used to work on Ku and C band microwave transmitters and in fact did control software for some of them; the C-band klystron units, in particular, had rated power outputs into the kilowatt range, with TWT units typically having rated outputs around 300-600 watts.  These were continuous ratings, not "burst" or "pulsed".

All of RF is, as you learn if you ever study it, subject to the inverse-square law.  This is why the local FM radio station frequently runs somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 watts of output power yet at your radio the signal level received by the antenna is tiny.

Thus while your meter may emit 1 watt and your cellphone is 6/10ths of that the meter is almost-certainly a hell of a lot further away from you than the phone just as your FM radio or TV is from the transmitter and thus the actual power you are exposed to is a tiny fraction of that from your cellular device, laptop connected via WiFi (which of course is transmitting) and similar.

In addition the meter transmits on a periodic basis because all the others within "listening range" have to not be transmitting at the same time or they will "step on" each other since they're all on the same frequency band.  The "mesh" is what makes this work; in short your neighbor "helps" your signal get to one of the utility company's antennas and vice-versa.  This is, of course, wildly different than what happens when you use a cellphone, PDA or laptop where your transmission is for you -- and only you.

In short the argument is bullshit unless, of course, you have no electronic devices in your house and do not live anywhere near a transmitting radio or TV station, nor do you have a transformer (which also emits EMF) on the pole or pedestal outside your home.  Well, perhaps not if you're Amish.  For everyone else?  It's crap.  Period.

The other argument is "dirty power."  Guess what I own?  A Tek digital storage oscilloscope, with which I can trivially look at the power quality coming from my AC outlets just as easily as I can use it to design, diagnose and fix electronics.  I have.  The claim is nonsense.

Why do power companies love smart meters?  Because they don't have to send people out to read them, so their costs are lower.  In addition nearly all (if not all) have a remote disconnect capability.  This cannot be used to shut you off for load management as its not designed to be used on a regular basis (it has a rated connect/disconnect under load life of perhaps a hundred cycles) so in terms of a "rolling blackout" that's not how they'll do it -- if they try they'll be buying a lot of new meters when the contacts fail.

But if you don't pay your bill, well, that's a "once in a while" deal and yeah, they can and do use it that way since now they don't need to send someone out to remove the meter from the socket and potentially meet the deadbeat with a 12ga shotgun who's rather interested in them not removing it and thus shutting their power off.

What I was asked to speak to was CDC overreach and my view that the agency should be destroyed, as their malfeasance and misfeasance, all of it intentional, goes back decades and is well-documented as is that of the FDA and NIH.  AIDS was one of the most-egregious examples but hardly the only one prior to Covid, never mind the CDC's refusal to actually act within their authority and seize and destroy contaminated items in interstate supply (such as E-coli contaminated food), which under statute they are empowered to do.

Nonetheless I refuse to have my name associated with bullshit and, while I'm polite enough not to call it out while on the Zoom, it shall not pass without my commentary here, on the record and exempt from roll-off.

Go to responses (registration required to post)

Comments on Let's Burn A Bridge....
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Page 1 of 3  First123Last
Shadowmask 4k posts, incept 2021-05-24
2022-09-16 14:01:19

This is right up there with "EMF at home are bad for you."
Rollformer 2k posts, incept 2013-02-13
2022-09-16 14:05:07

So, is Alcoa a buy or not? You make the case that the tinfoil is unnecessary, but at the same time it seems there is quite the demand for it.

Inquiring minds want to know.
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 14:06:38

It probably would have pissed them off had I donned this...


(Yes, very old picture and I was a LOT fatter when I took it.)

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?

Workerbee 4k posts, incept 2009-03-18
2022-09-16 14:14:38

Good for you Karl.

It's a fucking pain in the ass to stand against the newest cultural woke bullshit, but to be inadvertently aligned with tin bullshit...

'Keep pushing fuckers, you'll find the trip wire eventually'
~ Quik49

'This is the part where you find out who you are'
Abelardlindsey 1k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2022-09-16 14:32:13

Good lord!

Who the hell was this with?

It's all in the mitochondria.

"It's the future, and...you're not."
Shadowmask 4k posts, incept 2021-05-24
2022-09-16 15:10:12

@Rollformer better buy Alcoa quickly, they're having supply chain problems...
Wayiwalk 509 posts, incept 2016-11-09
2022-09-16 15:10:18

"Mine is not just a tinfoil hat, it's a CROWN!" - attributed to the president of the Tinfoil Hat Society

The Lockdowns Will Continue Until the Morale Improves!

I keep thinking, "it can't get any worse" and then it does!
Emupaul 135 posts, incept 2013-04-17
2022-09-16 15:11:33

I don't know how smart my electric meters are. I know the electric company reads them remotely.

Over the cell network? Not likely. I have a couple of friends that live further (farther?) from town than I do and they have no cell service.

Way back when you read your own meter, you filled in the blanks on the payment part of the statement and mailed it all in with your check. This is back when having a bag phone was a "big deal". Once a year or so someone would come and read the meter. Keep you honest, right?

With the new meters, they offer debit from checking. Nice!

They went to checking your meters about every 18 months, then two years. Haven't seen them at all for about 15 years.

I don't know how the meters work. Some kind of X-10 stuff.
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 15:17:05

@Emupaul - The more-rural areas are typically 900Mhz and the higher-density 2.4Ghz, simply because lower frequencies travel better. The 900Mhz ones also run a bit more power (up to 1W) where the 2.4Ghz ones less.

Both are under Part 15, which is unlicensed and, this is important, they're secondary users, so if their signal gets interfered with tough shit -- and they cannot interfere with a licensed user OR they can be forced to mitigate.

In areas that are rural "enough" that they can't "see" a mesh and therefore get the signal back to a convenient place (e.g. on top of a power line pole in the area) they send a dude around in a car that interrogates them and thus "reads" them. In more-dense areas they don't need to do that at all.

The one useful thing YOU can get out of it is that most of them report hourly or thereabouts, and thus you can profile your actual energy use. This is of some value to you if you're trying to figure out whether something you're doing saves you energy. It also allows for "time of use" billing (e.g. lower rates off-peak) which a traditional analog meter of course does not differentiate.

Commercial metering has always had a "demand" component to it which, if you get into there, oh boy, bend over. Running a DC at my company I had no choice; whatever you draw you draw, and the chiller and systems require power on a 24x7 basis. Whatever the demand charge was, well, I had no option but to pay it since I couldn't realistically shift the time of use as some industrial users can.

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?
Beechdriver 1k posts, incept 2007-10-17
2022-09-16 15:30:27

The other nice thing about Zigbee meters is that the power company knows almost right away if your power has gone out. Saves me having to call.
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 15:31:13

Yep. If some asshole digs something up or a storm gets it they know almost immediately because the mesh path either changes or a piece of it "disappears." Thus the truck gets rolled....

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?
Bzelbob 301 posts, incept 2021-09-12
2022-09-16 16:05:26

@Tickerguy - Great read!

Had a conspiracy-minded friend worried that the smart meters would somehow "cook" him or give him cancer at his house.
I tried explaining it the way you did, but not having an electrical background he was still skeptical.

Then I mentioned that household microwave ovens use typically 2000 watts or less.
And the smart-meters use very small amount of broadcast power.
And you're at least 5 to 10 feet away from them at all times.
And they're not always transmitting...
So then I asked him how good a job cooking chicken the smart meter would do if it were a microwave oven.
He started to get it.

Folks really, really need to understand Inverse Square Law/Conservation of Energy.

Conservation of Energy shall not be violated!smiley

"Threats are illogical. And payment is usually expensive." - Sarek of Vulcan
Tsherry 10k posts, incept 2008-12-09
2022-09-16 16:07:18

"Oh, not this shit again..."

Fuck Joe Biden with a GIANT RUSTY CHAINSAW.
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 16:08:00

This one was complete with a dude who used to swap meters and was all over the apology train for killing people with cancers and whatnot.

I had to shut my video off as "sarcasm-face" was about to turn into outright laughter.

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?
Emupaul 135 posts, incept 2013-04-17
2022-09-16 16:20:22

@Tickerguy I don't know.

I'm a mile from the paved road. In the middle of almost 40 acres. It's about 1000 feet from the gate to the house. Yeah, I was bored and measured it with my happy 100 foot tape measure. The dogs were helpful, too. Dang, almost 25 years ago.

I have a driveway announcer. There is no one coming unannounced unless they walk.

Cordless phones on 900Mhz? The few I had didn't work at the gate. Maybe almost half way... and about the same distance in any direction.

The new meter didn't affect my phones. Shrug. The elec CO-OP doesn't offer "The one useful thing YOU can get out of it is that most of them report hourly or thereabouts, and thus you can profile your actual energy use." That would be cool to see. Then again, House used 868 kWh last month.

I might have this dialed in.... Next would be a timer on the water heater. But I wonder if turning it off for a few hours will save more juice than it running on high to get back to temp versus leaving it alone.

I need to call the elec company to find out how the meter transmits.
Shadowmask 4k posts, incept 2021-05-24
2022-09-16 16:21:37

The apology train dude sounded sincere. He feels guilty for doing a job that "gives people cancer", and no one ever told him it's like installing a home wireless router. Thanks to this tin bullshit, he's probably shortening his life due to stress. That's not right, either.
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 16:21:26

@Emupaul - They CAN use PLC (over the power line) but in general they don't. There might be some that do for rural areas.

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?
Ckaminski 6k posts, incept 2011-04-08
2022-09-16 16:30:36

Anyone have experience with devices that talk to these meters for home automation?

I have two electric and one water meter.
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 16:33:55

The utilities won't give you the keying for it.

Water (and gas) meters typically are "interrogate only" and siphon off power with a little turbine in the meter to charge a battery (since they're not typically where you can get power), and thus to transmit on a routine basis would likely kill their power source.

Around here the dude in the truck drives by once a month..... (but unlike the days of old doesn't have to actually get out of the truck to read it.)

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?
Ckaminski 6k posts, incept 2011-04-08
2022-09-16 16:54:48

Boo. It would be nice to get real-time data, even if it's read only.
Avalanche 107 posts, incept 2022-02-12
2022-09-16 17:00:32

Thanks, makes me feel better about the idea of a 'meshed' power meter.... however...

How does this 'mesh' with the "we, the omnipotent power company, will 'balance' your load when we want or need to"; e.g., by TURNING DOWN your A/C on those 95-deg/95%-humidity days? ("That makes you suffer? Too bad, so sad... life is hot.")

I won't accept such a meter, because *I* am consciously and carefully managing my HVAC (yes, manually, with actual thermostat buttons ... I work from home! Depending on the season, I turn it down or up (to save power) when I leave for a few hours, but otherwise, I HAVE HVAC for my own comfort!

Control-nik? You betcha! Stay outta my house!!
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 17:00:22

Yeah, I've never seen a utility that will give you the keying for it, even read-only. However, our local utility DOES expose the power data on an hourly consumption basis via their web page. Its roughly a day behind which is no shock since the meters are NOT "always talking" and occasionally a report-in interval is missed due to noise or otherwise corrupted, so once in a while you might be a second day behind.

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?
Dan_e 87 posts, incept 2009-06-23
2022-09-16 17:04:55

Good on you Karl. Seems there's always one these days to make sure any reasonable counterargument gets heaped on the tin foil heap. Don't know if it's intentional or not, but it's damn effective
Tickerguy 188k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-09-16 17:04:44

@Avalanche - They can't at that granularity (individual device.) What they CAN do is bribe you to give THEM Zigbee access to YOUR thermostat, which is what they do. Weeeeelllll then they can control it, AND with some of them (including mine) you can even lock out local changes, so now you can't override it! I can do that with my software so.... yeah.

The other alternative they do sometimes sell is a remote switch that goes on the condenser outside; same deal. That's just a Zigbee 240V switch -- and they know if its on or not as it also measures consumption. I have a couple Z-Wave ones on things here (e.g. water heater.) Again, THEY have the keying and since its a mesh the meter can "see" the other devices. If the other devices share keying (from the power company) then they can interrogate and/or send commands.

The "smart meters" can be shut off remotely but again the contacts are NOT rated for frequent use under load and since they own the meter and get to buy the new one if it blows up they won't use it that way. The remote disconnect is there for the person who doesn't pay their bill.

NASA faked out a computer instead of running the test.
Then tried to launch and aborted instead of going "BOOOM!"
Did they abort the JABS after faking THOSE tests?

Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Page 1 of 3  First123Last