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Purplefang
Posts: 485
Incept: 2010-03-28

Oklahoma
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Delta may be the free vaccine we need. Delta may not be mandatory, but I don't see how the spread of delta can be stopped. The government just needs to get the hell out of the way. Life is an infection party whether we like it or not. The fittest will survive.
Georgi
Posts: 41
Incept: 2021-07-07

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@Purplefang - yeah exactly. I would suggest a first two shots with OC43 and HKU1 to gain some cross immunity. Then the 3rd shot of delta plus ivermectin to soften the hit. Is there actually a medical facility that can offer controlled low dose infection. If I need to take a jab in order to provide for my family then I would go for the OC43-HKU1-Delta regimen.
Ktrosper
Posts: 4682
Incept: 2010-04-06

ft collins co
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TG wrote..
The infection may stay local to the respiratory tract, and if it does then so does the potential pathology.

Muscle soreness over the entire body a sign that it went systemic?

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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates
The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle
Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero
I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D.
Tickerguy
Posts: 177007
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Not necessarily. Same thing happens commonly with the flu. Your body does quite a bit when fighting infection.

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Ahhz
Posts: 384
Incept: 2011-06-12


Online
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@Georgi
Quote:
What I meant is, there are a lot of hospitalizations and deaths after the 3rd shot meaning that for some reason these shots are not working even if they are as fresh as it gets.


Bolding is mine and I'm just spitballing, but "fresh" shot may be the answer. I didn't see the paper so I don't know if they gave the people's 3rd shot date. Since 3rd shot protocol is new-ish and just being rolled out, I'd bet that the hospitalizations are due to getting that shot and not having enough time to build back enough antibodies before being exposed to a real version of the coof.

All vaccines (AFAIK) have a ramp-up time between injection and protection. The coof version also has a nasty decay rate, so... timing matters

Aztrader
Posts: 8678
Incept: 2007-09-10

Scottsdale, AZ
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Maybe you know the answer to this.
If a vaxxed person donates blood to a non-vaxxed person, do they spread the spike protein?
Tickerguy
Posts: 177007
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Presumably yes but at what concentration is unknown. Dose matters as with all poisons.

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Georgi
Posts: 41
Incept: 2021-07-07

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@Ahhz , you are right that this could be the reason. In the first comment regarding those data I was hypothesising that the data could be explained by some combination of the following:
1. It is about the delta after all. The 3rd shot is not helping much because the delta variant is able to escape the spike-only antibodies induced by the vaccines
2. Israel is in the middle of the 3rd dose administration and they are doing it against all bast practices during a disease wave. Maybe the events after the 3rd dose are people getting the boosters but the infection happened within the 1-2 week span after the injection so that they were not able to mount the antibody protection from it.
3. For some reasons the boosters are not having the same (short-term!) protective effect. Or even ADE?
4. The boosters do actually cause bad reactions and disease, as @Blackcrow suggests

The second point is precisely this - maybe the 3rd shots are too fresh. Regarding the first two they consider one being vaccinated 2 weeks after the second shot. Not sure if this holds for the 3rd one as well.
Heartlander
Posts: 726
Incept: 2021-02-25

Kansas
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@Tickerguy

So if I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying there simply is NO advisable vaccine for Covid, simply because there is NO non-problematic vaccine for ANY coronavirus? Just the nature of the beast?
Tickerguy
Posts: 177007
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Half-correct @Heartlander -- there has NEVER been a successful, long-term immunity-inducing vaccine for any coronavirus.

But in THIS CASE for THIS virus it's even worse because the spike protein is pathogenic standing alone. Since ALL of the current vaccines encode for or (in the case of Novavax, which is not yet approved) directly inject it you must take the risk of systemic, disseminated pathology centered in your circulatory system and its endothelium with ANY injected vaccine for same.

The exact characterization of that risk is poorly understood if understood at all simply because they didn't look. Where that crosses over for an individual person with respect to the risk of infection CANNOT be adequately computed at this time as the data has deliberately not been sought or collected. I can't even give you a good guess, EXCEPT that for healthy children and adults it almost-certainly falls on the wrong side of the risk:benefit equation. As you add morbidities it gets harder, and one of the worst things is that we have no way to know whether the repeated jab risk produces no worse danger than the first two, less (if you don't get hit the first two times you probably won't) or, the nightmare, an exponential acceleration. Without knowing THAT you have no way to calibrate whether getting on the "jab boosters every X period of time" makes ANY sense; it may be that it NEVER works on a risk:reward basis for ANYONE, but without that data there's simply no possible way to know.

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Jwm_in_sb
Posts: 3330
Incept: 2009-04-16

California Desert
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And that issue entirely separate from the continued degradation of the immune system through repeated Jabs correct? This is monstrous...

Mitchell2
Posts: 1
Incept: 2021-09-01

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Hi Karl
I've been lurking a while, but this is my first post. I've been very worried that people who got vaccinated were back to square 1 in terms of immunity after the vaccine generated antibodies wore off, generally understood to be after a 6 month period. A new study, albeit done by vested interests, shows 'durable cellular immunity for at least 6 months after mRNA vaccination with persistence of high-quality memory B cells and strong CD4+ T cell memory in
most individuals'.
Here is the paper https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/....
Jstr
Posts: 32
Incept: 2021-05-19

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@Tickerguy (or others), re B cells:

I thought about it some more, and am now wondering why the vaccines do not induce them. For all that is wrong with the vaccines, the result is still SARS2 coronavirus parts in the body that the immune system deals with; so why wouldnt it create B cells? Is the exposure too atypical? Are longer time spans required than the vaccine antibodies are active (their concentration high enough)?
Larryboy
Posts: 28
Incept: 2012-12-29

Windsor Colorado
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@tickerguy. Do you have an opinion on @tonythetiger use of nebulated hydrogen peroxide? Free pdf book at rvr.medfoxpub.com. It sounds too good to be true
Hungrylion
Posts: 7
Incept: 2021-04-30

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Inevitable Pathway?...

Vaccinated: Boosters every 6 months, 3 months, 1 month, 2 weeks, 1 week, ...DEAD FROM ADVERSE EFFECTS FROM VACCINE

Unvaccinated: Restricted access to places of social interaction, restricted access to food and gasoline services, restricted access to banking, ...DEAD FROM POVERTY

...or Tinfoil?

Hence, take up arms? Obviously, exactly what they want you to do.
Tickerguy
Posts: 177007
Incept: 2007-06-26
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@Mitchel2 - the Israeli data says that is bull****.

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Lemonaid
Posts: 14011
Incept: 2008-01-20

Metro Detroit
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Yup... When you have real world data contradicting your medical hypothesis... smiley

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"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." Ludwig von Mises
Susanlauren
Posts: 611
Incept: 2021-05-01

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@Hungrylion
Pathway No. 1 for the vaxxed may be a reality. Pathway No. 2 for the unvaxxed - I don't think so. Try off grid, barter and black market type society. Think grow your own food, chickens in the back yard, barter with local farmers and living like the Amish. A second tiered group will emerge. Also, if enough of the vaxxed succumb, do you think this game will be able to be continued?

Luciab
Posts: 54
Incept: 2010-11-19

Southwest, USA
Online
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@Tickerguy. What does it mean if I only got something like a headcold wuth lots of sinus pressure and only a small dry cough and I still can't smell very well. Are thise symptoms to mild to do me any good with natural immunity? 😪
Fumei
Posts: 2615
Incept: 2019-01-08

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What good is the off ramp if Zhina set a trap on the off ramp by using the spike protein in the poisoned as a marker for a soon to be released bioweapon?
Krzelune
Posts: 10425
Incept: 2007-10-08

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Patentleathershoes
Posts: 10669
Incept: 2007-09-13
A True American Patriot!
On the Daisy Chain
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Walgreens is selling the BinaxNOW. I ordered. two (limit, two per pack) that I will pick up tomorrow.

I am pretty happy about this development.

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"An unborn child's property rights are protected by law. His right to life is not." Ronald Reagan
Georgi
Posts: 41
Incept: 2021-07-07

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@Mitchell2 - thanks for the paper! As @Tickerguy says it seems to contradict the Israeli data, which I strongly suppose are sound.
Possible reasons:
1. In the paper they used both Pfizer and Moderna vaccines but did not differentiate the results. Israel was using Pfizer almost exclusively. The sample size in the paper is rather small - 61 individuals of which 45 did not have prior infection, so there is quite some variance in the estimates.
2. The Israeli data show that the more vulnerable group for vaccine failure are the 60y+ folks. There it is not simply a vaccine failure but rather a systemic almost total collapse of the protection. The paper does not state the age of the subjects. Maybe the vaccine is more effective for the younger, who doesn't need it anyways.

I expect the data for September and October to bring some light on this. The Israeli data is coming fast - last week of August is already available. Again on the 60y+ group the first indication is that the boosters are failing. We do not know for the rest as they are probably not boosted yet.

On a positive note, the vaccines seem not to destroy the already present natural immunity in the 16 studied subjects:
<blockquote cite="https://www.biorxiv.org/node/
"
Finally, this dataset presented an opportunity to investigate the impact of booster mRNA
vaccination in subjects with pre-existing immunity, in this case from a prior SARS-CoV-2 infection.
...
Boosting of Spike- and RBD-specific memory B cell and memory CD4+ T cell
responses was transient and returned to pre-vaccination baseline by 3-6 months (figure 6E).
CD8+ T cell responses were not boosted in SARS-CoV-2 immune subjects and decayed from
peak at a comparable rate to SARS-CoV-2 nave vaccinees (figure 6E). The boosting of antiSpike and anti-RBD binding antibodies was also transient and returned to near baseline by 6
months (figure 6E). Only D614G and B.1.351 neutralizing antibody remained substantially above
pre-vaccine baseline at 6 months (~6.8 fold increase), but these titers were also declining over
time.
...
Overall, these data suggest that boosting of pre-existing
immunity with mRNA vaccination does not enhance already durable memory B cell or memory T
cell responses. Rather, the benefit of booster vaccination in this setting may be limited to a
significant but transient increase in antibody.
"

So one gets durable effects from the vaccine if one had no immunity but nothing is gained by those who had one. This is puzzling, given that it is proven that natural immunity and the vaccine induced one are quite different.
The paper might be a BS after all but really the September and October data from Israel will tell.
Nickdanger
Posts: 981
Incept: 2011-06-12

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The Red Cross apparently doesn't allow blood plasma donations from those that have been vaccinated because it doesn't have the same immunity profile as natural infection related immunity. Interesting...

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/09/no_a....

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-- I'm in the control group

-- In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Conventional_wiz
Posts: 23
Incept: 2021-07-19

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Here is a story of doing opposite of the off-ramp. The full text is worth reading (pretty short) and jaw-dropping in the complete lack of logic.

https://coronavirus.duke.edu/2021/08/new....

In summary, Duke says 98% of students are fully vaxxed and 92% of employees. But then 2 weeks into the semester, their testing surveillance found 364 positive cases. 98% were vaccinated (all but 8). Hmm, an oddly specific number. Good news is majority were asymptomatic and rest had minor symptoms.

So what are they doing about this? They decided to mandate masks and make vaccination a condition of employment. Employees have until Oct 1 at 10am to comply.

Brain shrapnel everywhere. This completely defies logic and blows my mind. I shouldn't be surprised anymore... but wow!


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