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 What *IS* This Nonsense? (Electric Cars)
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

Pie in the sky greenie bullshit Whewt.

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Icarus 411 posts, incept 2010-11-11

As long as cheap liquid fuels are available, nothing will look like a good alternative. But, if they aren't available, many alternatives like electric vehicles (and even bicycles) will suddenly look pretty good.

Eightysixthebs wrote..
1) Run power lines over the interstate the same way they do for other mass transit systems.
2) Have the car tap into this with a hook like you see on a city bus.
3) The car uses the power for long distance while on the interstate and charges the battery for the shorter hops "off grid".

Agreed. And bring back the electric trollys for mass transit.
Forget the battery-pack exchanges, forget the charging stations, forget the range limitations.
And, on a humorous note: The interstate highway of the future:
inline
http://www.russellfair.com/midway/bumper....

But the problem isn't really the continuation of some form of motorized individual transportation. An over-sized golf cart can do that. The problem is that everybody is always in such a damn HURRY to get to everywhere that they want to go.
They can't drive 30-40 mph around a place like metro Atlanta...they have to go 70-80mph, and so the current crop of "alternative" electric vehicles are designed to do the same. And thus they end up being not much of an alternative at all.

Mannfilm11 wrote..
In my opinion, urban design will be a lot more important in the realm of energy than electric cars.

Agreed. And you have some good ideas, by the way. I wish Disney had put you in charge of building a real EPCOT. smiley

However, none of the alternatives will take place until it is a matter of necessity. After the cheap, liquid hydrocarbons are gone. (Emphasis on "cheap")

Diogenes 978 posts, incept 2007-08-03

Best solution is algal fuel produced at sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
Can produce fuel for diesel and regular petrol vehicles and does not interfere with food production.

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The only price discovery that is happening in todays markets is the price wich a society pays when it allows its markets to be run by corrupt bankers.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

Actually the best alternative I've seen thus far is synfuel from coal with thorium producing the process heat.

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Bohemian 9k posts, incept 2010-07-27

Genesis wrote..
But at $41,000 per copy, will it interest American drivers?


You forgot the $7,500 .gov rebate for buying from Government Motors! smiley Wait till they nationalize the banks, hahaha. We'll get free iPads for deposits like the EU is doing to attract customers.

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"The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice; you have owners. They own you. They own everything." - George Carlin
Icarus 411 posts, incept 2010-11-11

Genesis wrote..
Actually the best alternative I've seen thus far is synfuel from coal with thorium producing the process heat.

You've mentioned this in other Tickers, but I can't remember if you've stated a "price of oil" where this becomes economically viable, especially since it will require quite a bit of new infrastructure. (the thorium reactor plants, etc.)
Where would this become economically viable vis-a-vis oil price?
I assume current transportation infrastructure....cars, filling stations, etc. would not need modification.
Thanks.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

Well considering that if you assign half of our defense budget to protecting energy supplies our current per-barrel oil price for imported barrels is $200 each.......

(That's not an unrealistic figure either; in fact, it might be low.)

The thorium reactor plants produce electricity; we get several benefits:

1. No more imported petroleum of any sort.
2. No more need to defend the world for this purpose.
3. Between 3-5x our current electrical output
4. Little or NO growth in coal consumption from our current path.
5. A decrease in CO2 output approximately equal to that produced by the coal (it's still emitted, but the oil it replaces is not burned. The thorium use to produce the heat and electricity, of course, emits no CO2.)

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Bohemian 9k posts, incept 2010-07-27

Karl, you are probably the only person on the planet actively talking about thorium reactors. I don't disagree with it, but when will some politician pick up the idea? Ever?

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"The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice; you have owners. They own you. They own everything." - George Carlin
Duc888 8k posts, incept 2008-11-06

Quote:
Not sure the math works on that Duc, as much as I'd like it to. I have a kubota built into a genset on our boat. It's about 18hp and delivers 5kw. (41 amps at 120V, 100 amps at 48V or however you want to slice up the wattage). In short, 18 hp cannot create 60 hp or there would be no energy problem.


kubota > charges a shit ton of batteries > batteries run 60 HP DC motor.
Nuke_engineer 2k posts, incept 2007-08-19

The next RE bubble.....Bolivia!

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Trading and investing is understanding about people, emotions and corruption of government, corporations, banks and people using propaganda, lies, mathematics and bankster logic working against you.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

The 8kw genset on my boat had a 3 cylinder Yanmar diesel and if I remember correctly the engine was rated at 14hp. Rated at ~0.9gph at full load (and that was about right in my experience with it.)

If you had a 18hp engine only producing 5kw you got robbed somewhere along the line.

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Wb6yyz 242 posts, incept 2009-03-16

Everyone keeps thinking in terms of a road trip lasting hundreds of miles. But the length of an average car commute according to http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistat.... is 15.3 miles one way. Even if you can't recharge at your job, that's still only 30.6 miles, well within reach of existing battery technology and overnight charging at home. Some are going to argue that the data is lopsided, however the site referenced above breaks it down further. Adding up all the responses for 1-25 miles one way, show that electric cars as they now stand are practical for 85% of commuters. Most households own multiple cars, only one car needs to be long range. Those who are unable or unwilling to own more than one car can always rent a petrol or diesel powered car for road trip vacations or other special trips.
Whewt 2k posts, incept 2008-03-17

Quote:
Pie in the sky greenie bull**** Whewt.


Noted - this is from a 3/23/2011 Better Place press release.

Quote:
As part of the deployment plan, Better Place exposed the locations for the first nine of 40 Battery Switch Stations that will be deployed by the end of this year in locations across Israel including: Hadera, Modi'in, Mahanaim, Mitzpeh Ramon, Be'er Sheva, Yavne, Beit Shean and Bilu Junction. To date, Better Place has signed 400 agreements with parking lot owners across Israel to deploy thousands of charge spots with the first 200 sites already under construction. In addition, 27 municipalities have signed agreements to ensure that Better Place charge spots are deployed in central locations in their respective cities.


Just like Doom with a date, Pie-in-the-sky with a date is better. In the next year, we should be able to see if this is real or not. One thing that HAS happened is they have passed legislation to incentivize electric vehicles.

http://www.shalomlife.com/eng/15122/arti....

Quote:
Israelis have to pay a premium on cars due to the 90% purchase tax on regular cars. As an incentive to go green, Israel has reduce the purchase price tax on electric cars to 10%, which will create significant savings.


90% of Israeli's drive less than 45 miles per day. With confined geography, a 70% savings for purchase of an EV, and the political will to end dependence on Oil, Israel seems to have the best shot of any to make this work.






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Except for the math, it's all going to work out.
You don't think about the Ban Hammer...You just swing it!!!

Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

Again, this is a wildly-lopsided figure. Take that ~15 mile trip in Chicago in the middle of the summer and while you ALLEGEDLY have a 40 mile range I GUARANTEE you won't get there.

Why? Because you're sitting in traffic with the AC on to avoid being cooked to bacon temperature and your battery will go flat. Now what?

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Flaps10 7k posts, incept 2008-10-17

My numbers are working backwards from A) the rating of the genset and B) what I know the engine turns out to be. I noticed the exact same engine turning up on Lugger, Northern Lights and two other brands of genset (After turning wrenches for a while you learn to recognize things in the dark). A guy at a boat show identified it as a Kubota 18hp, so in my application it's loafing.

I still say the math doesn't work. 18hp cannot sustain 60hp output. And that torque figure is at full stall, not pulling a 31' Airstream up a mountain pass. Ain't happening.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

Well true.

Here's the thing though - I get ~14hp to run my car @ 60mph on level ground. So a 20hp engine could do that, plus have a few horsepower for a trickle charge. In the city when at a light the entire 20hp can go to charge the batteries, and when they have a charge they can contribute to the acceleration.

Now the question is this - is running that engine either (a) not at all or (b) at its peak BFSC sufficiently better to compensate for the indirection of driving a generator? I don't know - it might be and it might not.

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Phantomace 6k posts, incept 2009-03-16

What is the package size of the genset you guys are discussing?
(L x W x H, approx. weight?)

ETA: For example, I know the 13hp gas compressor set I have here is about 500 lbs +/-.
But, that is the engine, the compressor head, and the air tank all in one unit. So, would a 20hp unit (larger engine) with a generator instead of pump and tank be, say, half that weight?

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"That was a little trick I call math. Oops, now I'm not emotionally invested..." - Dilbert
The only good thing I have to say about Barney Frank is at least he's not breeding...

Reason: add
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

8kw Marine unit is ~30" x 18" x 24" approximately, ~450lbs.

Same thing in a 10kw has a ~18hp motor, pretty much the same size (another inch or so on each dimension) and another 100lbs.

Fuel consumption on the 10kw at full output is almost exactly 1gph.

Note that they pay almost no attention to mass on a marine unit. There are probably land-intended units that are lighter.

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."

Flaps10 7k posts, incept 2008-10-17

phantom,
I'll have to take a tape to mine, but it is installed under the workbench in the engine room of our sailboat. Probably 30-some inches long, maybe 18" wide and maybe 24" high. In this particular application it has a raw water pump pushing through a heat exchanger and then into a "wet" exhaust (far quieter).

If you're on dry land you'd need the one with a radiator.

Our is old school so you always know when it's running. When we're anchored we run it at night to run the reefers and watch a movie, then kill it until morning when we fire it up so we can shower, etc.

My neighbor has one which wheezed up. His replacement runs inside a dampened box. You can have a conversation next to it.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

I had an old Onan on my boat - without the sound kit it was LOUD. The Kohler I replaced it with didn't NEED the sound kit. You could hear it running in the salon as long as the AC wasn't on - if it was, the fan for the AC unit was louder.

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Phantomace 6k posts, incept 2009-03-16

Hmmm...
Wondering how feasible it would be to retrofit "all electric" short range cars with a light duty tow hitch and a standard trailer plug-in (like on my F150) and a 2 connection cable plug (Pos/Neg) into the vehicles charging circuit?
A person could use their car for typical "daily commute" use on battery power, and rent (or buy) a small towset for long trips. And, an enterprising designer could build in a little bit of extra capacity (for suitcases, golf clubs and what not) for those long trips. If you could get the gen-set down to 300 lbs, then I would have to believe the whole thing, loaded even with some "luggage" wouldn't be over 1,000 lbs, even way loaded maybe 1,200 max? And, since the plug is there, it could have electric brakes as well, alleviating some of the issues with towing it. Understanding that range from "battery only" would go down due to extra weight and wind drag, would it be able to appreciably exceed the losses enough to be viable?

Driving from Las Vegas to Cali for the weekend? Drop by U-haul and drop a deposit, stop for a few gallons of diesel on your way out. Only limit at that point is how far between fuel stations, which is the current dilemma anyway for gas/diesel powered cars, so the infrastructure is there. And, since it is being towed most of the time at some speed, it could be air cooled with a ducted feed, which would help keep the weight down -vs- a liquid cooled unit. Just put a thermal cut-off that shuts it down in traffic if the temp goes up too high.

Yeah, I know, sounds "hair brained", but is it really that far fetched?

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"That was a little trick I call math. Oops, now I'm not emotionally invested..." - Dilbert
The only good thing I have to say about Barney Frank is at least he's not breeding...
Heresiarch 42 posts, incept 2009-12-15

Quote:
Even if you can't recharge at your job, that's still only 30.6 miles, well within reach of existing battery technology and overnight charging at home.


Really?

What happens when you add in air-conditioning during hot weather or heating during sub-zero weather?

Plus stops and starts in urban traffic?

Plus running my stereo loud enough to sterilize frogs at a hundred yards?

I will believe the distances being quoted only when I see the results of minus forty weather testing with my heated sets, windshield washers, halogens and stereo going.
Phxkevin 382 posts, incept 2010-06-25

It took railroad trains about 80 years to evolve from steam to diesel electric (and beyond), and cars have evolved, but just not on the same scale. I have two cars, one is a 1989 and the other is a 2008. There is a world of difference in the technology, the weight of the vehicles and the safety features. The newer car is larger and gets significantly better mileage (and presumably is better for the environment). My point is that the early adapters will hopefully make electric (or hybrid electric) technology more workable in the near future.

I agree that fuel taxes (or the lack there of) will be a serious issue for the states and feds.

I toured an algae to diesel facility and was surprised that the most valuable parts of the conversion were food products and dyes, not the oil. Unless crude oil goes up a lot in real terms, I do not see algae as a salvation for the replacement of imported oil, but rather a supplement to the food supplies. Maybe algae can offset the corn and other food products to ethanol, specifically as a food stock for fish.

I drank a large glass of denial this morning and chased it with lots of caffeine. It has done wonders for my outlook.

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If youve ever cared about privacy while using the Internet ... you might be a terrorist.
Slate magazine
[url http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/02/02/communities_against_terrorism_ini
Pcaldallas 1k posts, incept 2009-03-02

How do people "plug in at home" without a garage? If you park on the street, are you planning on snaking an extension cord out an open window and on to your car? Same deal for people living in a condo or apartment building. Or perhaps the car folds down into a briefcase like on the Jetsons and you carry it inside to your living room.
Mrbill 8k posts, incept 2008-10-19

We're lucky if we can park on the same block on the street at night around here.
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