Mike,

J6P isn't looking that far down the road. If he is on Funemployment, he may be looking at getting a new job, but his immediate need is that next check from the .gov.

Threaten to take that away and what do you have?

If polls show the economy as the #1 concern, and you are portrayed as wanting to knock out the underpinnings (.gov support), what do you have?

The bottom half doesn't pay taxes, so what do they care? If you threaten to change that, what do you have?

All that being said, I support allowing the market to clear and starting over. That also makes me unelectable and there is no way to frame that for the general public to digest.

IF the GOP storms the gates in November on removing .gov support for the economy, they had better hope the damage is in October. If it is in January, that's the last election they win for a long time.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.

Just my opinion, but I don't think any Dem can convince J6P that anything they did worked. The only ones that will be convinced are the environmental / gay rights / abortion / civil liberties and other such collegiate nutters who don't care about finances either because they're already rich, or poor and living off government handouts.

I think most J6P see a lot of BS from both Parties and won't show up at the polls in November because they are left with the same old choices - dumb and dumber. "Fuck it, I'm not voting for anyone because they're all liars and assholes." At least that's how it is here in Ill-noise.

Quote:

Threaten to take that [unemployment check] away and what do you have?

Again, I think Joe knows it's going away anyway. Besides, he doesn't want to live at poverty level on $300/week forever either. He wants to get back to work, to have a normal life again, and yet he keeps hearing about more and more job losses. So even if that interview he went on pans out, is he even going to keep the f'n job if he gets it? Or is he going to be right back in the same insecure situation?

I just think if somebody radical came out against these guys, he/she could win on a strictly economic platform because it would get all the fence-sitters off their butts to vote.

This is all pointless conjecture, but from what I see, most people want to solve their own problems and don't look to politicians for anything other than in times of emergency. But now, politicians are the problem, so they're even less enthused to vote for anyone at this point unless they're radical and rail against the establishment.

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Intentional manipulation of markets is usually thought of as a crime, not a benefit, and should lead to indictments, not praise. -Karl

Ishmael now YOU are a Republican that I can support. (it is reassuring to see that the right in the US is not all composed of bible-thumping troglodytes, unlike what one might guess by looking at the most prominent members...).

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In Soviet Russia, the government regulates the banks.

Holy shit I just finished reading a page of posts on Free Republic.

We're fucked.

Karl, before I was sceptical, but this time you blew my mind, literally. Your ideas on the wedge issue expanded my awareness and changed my perspective. Wow. Thank you.

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Ignorance is Strength.

The folks in our tea parties stay out of the social issues period even though most are God fearing people.
They now we cannot win other wise. Over a year ago when we started our groups this was a big issue. We figured it out early on and for the south to recognize this is pretty remarkable. We all went to Glenn's rally also, but we all still agree for the election we have to stay on course. I guess the south isn't a stupid as some make us out to be.

Thanks again for the ticker I will pass it on.

VERY important ticker !

Guns are also in this category.

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For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 . For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero

Yes they are.

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The libertarians are besides themselves with the Tea Party. The Tea Party seems to have adopted the LP as it's own. These wedge issues are what divides a religious right tea party with a Libertarian.

Most hardline LPs believe in a firm separation of church and state.

lq - the sun coming up can cause a shitstorm with the freepers

I just read through the posts. A lot of people over there 'get it'. Some don't and I doubt any amount of talking on that board will convince them. thanks for the tip.

mann, you're still talking in circles and code.

Karl, Excellent ticker and I whole heartedly agree. Drop the wedge issues. Race, religion, sex, and on and on are used to keep us at each others throats meanwhile we are getting robbed blind. Great post and I wish I would of seen it sooner.

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KD Did you mean "The candidate that says this to the TV cameras and TO his opponent - wins:"

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For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 . For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero

Apathy is the answer:

http://theemptiness.info/2010/08/apathy-....

(not my blog)

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Why do you complain? It's the criminals who decide how proceeds of crime are spent, not the victims.

Generally agree about the wedge issues.

However, any rights specifically identified in the Bill of Rights and/or any other things specifically and explicitly set forth in the Constitutional should not be considered a wedge issue!

Ostriches, they're not, to the extent that you simply identify them as "The Constitution as written is the supreme law of the land; if you wish to change the enumerated rights and powers, do it through Constitutional Amendment."

Once you start playing the "nuance game" we're back to wedge issues again.

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My candidate is the one who keeps liberals out of my pocket and conservatives out of my bedroom.

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The cheeze in the mouse trap is always free.

I agree with what Karl is saying completely as far as politics goes; however, I think morals, ethics and integrity ARE a root problem.

Because then there's THIS. Which I think demonstrates what Eleua is trying to say here:

Quote:

An essay written by Beau Friedlander, the last editor-in-chief of Air America before it shut down this year, was posted in the Politics section of the Huffington Post today with the title, $100,000 For Glenn Beck's Sex Tape.

Friedlander says he will not use his own money for the hit, but that he will "broker" the deal.

It is time to pop the tea baggers' favorite balloon (so what if it will be replaced by another?), and with that in mind I hereby offer to negotiate a $100,000 payday to the person who will come forward with a sex tape or phone records or anything else that succeeds in removing Glenn Beck from the public eye forever. I am not offering the cash myself, but I will broker the deal and/or raise the money for what you bring to the table. (And it better be good.)

If you have the goods, or if you want to contribute to a slush fund to buy more takedowns (probably not tax deductible), please contact me at . . .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/beau-fried....

Note the "or anything else that succeeds in removing" Beck from the public eye "forever".

AFAIK, Obama is the most hated POTUS ever in my lifetime, yet I have not seen anything remotely like this coming from the so-called 'right' - but THIS....THIS was in a very PROMINENT (nearly MSM at this point) publication. Something horrible has happened to the values in this country. It's the same horrible that brought us our economic situation.

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"Obama is the dark-center of the anal fissure of a chancre infested, hemorrhoid laden asshole preparing to pucker and spew endless jets of diarrhea."--Chthonic

I agree Karl. I did not read all 6 pages of comments. I do think things like guns are wedge issues too. They are wedge issues because we allow the left to make them so.

So why did this happen? I believe that it comes down to the media. Media (IMO) is so corrupt that they force your hand on wedge issues.

Is it possible that if the media hates you and your values so much that you could still win with the platform you laid out? The corruption runs so deep, all the way to our 1st grade classrooms to the unions and board rooms. How do you combat this?

Maybe this will make my point;
Saying the Pledge Of Allegiance in school has become a wedge issue by a few because we have allowed it.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

Tm22721 -- you got that right.

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Hope is neither a good strategy or birth control methodology!

One thing on Beck. I knew some clown would come along some time and say all of these financial problems came about from our break with God and that is what he is doing.

These problems came about by US citizen ignorance, not paying attention and hubris!

This problem was man made!

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Hope is neither a good strategy or birth control methodology!

KD wrote: "Once you start playing the "nuance game" we're back to wedge issues again."

Bingo ! Focus is the key. Focusing exactly (and not beyond) what Karl has wrote should be the unifying cause and neglecting all other issues.

Once we are out of the economic woods (full of corruption as it now stands) we can go back to tackle other issues.

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For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 . For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero

I think lack of honor, ethics and integrity is a problem, too. If our laws are lacking, or dishonest people have found loopholes, then we need to pass new laws or revise the old ones, and punish those who break them. We are not seeing much punishment of thieves and cheaters these days.

I don't think we need to try to put those values into our legal code because some founding fathers were Christian, or the country was founded on Christian principles (imo, a coincidence), blah blah blah. Keep talking about it, and I am only convinced that the Christian Right is trying to tell others that if they're atheist or agnostic, they're immoral - which is patently untrue. Or that they're trying to thwart the establishment clause. Anybody remember that pesky little thing?

I notice a lot of those same Christian Righties trying to convince me that prayer isn't allowed in school; it is, as long as it isn't led by teachers or administration trying to shove their brand of religion down the kids' throats. Plenty of decent, moral, law-abiding atheists and agnostics around. They even have rights. Imagine that.

Start heading toward the slippery slope of even implying you're trying to establish a national religion or "national Christian principles" (or any other religious flavor), and I will be on the other side defending my right to be any religion or none at all. To the death, if necessary.

This is one of the issues that lost the last election, imo. Many, many people are turned off by the militancy of the Christian Right, Moral Majority, whatever you want to call it. In short, trying to sell me on any brand of religion with politics utterly turns me off, to the extent that it's hard for me to listen to the rest of the message. Stay out of my bedroom, stay out of my doctor's office, and stay out of my religious beliefs or lack thereof. Ain't nobody's business but mine.

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The man who wouldn't die.

Republicans want a small government. Small enough to fit in the bedroom. - C. Crumling

wow... it is so very nice to know that I am NOT alone!

Quote:

Out here in Calif (and from what I can tell, around most of the country), Tea Parties are 100% fiscal conservatism and limited government.

nope, not here in goood old New York!! They bleat on and on about all sorts of non-issues. I even joined my local tea party as a gay man (I am a middle aged straight female) and argued about gay marriage just for the argument!! "He" was not wanted, nor were his views...

I was not wanted because early on I pointed out the flaws in the candidate that they were backing... just last week the head of the organization came out against the candidate that they had backed... maybe it's looking better here, but not good enough!

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write-in: Beelzebub
When you just can't vote for the lesser of two evils any more.

KD wrote..

I know this is going to be unpopular, but it needs to be said. I've seen this happening in some of the local Tea Party groups, and it saddens me. The local Niceville branch here featured people talking about "natural law" as an important qualifying factor for political candidacy, as just one of many examples. There were times I felt like I had walked into a Baptist sermon.

I am not sure what was being said, since I wasn't there, but IMO this is the number one reason we are losing our republic. Natural law was the cornerstone of the enlightenment, of rational thought. It was the idea that each individual is sovereign with inalienable rights, or rights which cannot be defined by any kind of legal document or even a constitution. These rights are inherently ours, some say that God created man with these rights others say they are ours by our humanity. The core of this idea is the right to self ownership, you own yourself and all other rights are derived from this idea. If one should say that the constitution or bill of rights defines or gives us these rights, then those rights are subject to the governing authority, to give or to take.

What is the liberal agenda other than taking your property and redistributing it to others who have a greater need? In the bailouts, those with the greater need where the TBTF banks, their position in society was deemed more important or critical than a sovereign individual's right to keep their property and the wealth was redistributed to the banks via the bailouts. This is epidemic in political thought, the idea of collectivism or that the needs of the collective outweigh the needs or rights of the individual.

I have no doubt that those persons at the rally have this idea all muddled up and their concept of natural rights extends only in a religious sense. But IMO if we want our republic back, then we must once again embrace the idea of individual sovereignty and that the constitution limits government infringement upon our rights. These rights as I said are inalienable, non transferable by government they are ours simply because we own ourselves.

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There are so many rules no one knows which rules to follow. The only sure rule is more rules will follow. SQJ.

Individual sovereignty and the recognition of rights (as opposed to the granting of them) is most-assuredly NOT what the "natural law" folks are talking about in these meetings.

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