2banana - nobody said the guy you are talking about is running for office. he wouldn't get elected by either side. now start with your last point. How would someone who is fiscally responsible view unwed parenthood? probably negatively because they understand the negative effects on the mother, child, and family as well as the hidden costs borne by society.

A fiscally conservative man will end up with many of the same principles that a morally conservative man will. A fiscally responsible man will lead his life with this mindset, and propose laws accordingly. Note that fiscally conservative <> greedy pigman.

el, this is the commonality between fiscal conservatives and moral conservatives.

2b, As far as a man wedding another man, or two women, what is the harm to the state? Or is it because it offends your moral clause you don't want others doing it...

imhaz, i wouldn't even bring those test up in the discussion. as soon as they are introduced then they are game for discussion.

just keep talking about the debt.

kd's scenario is exactly correct. this is why 3rd parties are a bad idea. they split the vote and someone is elected without a plurality. 3rd party candidates are sometimes run as shadow candidates to draw votes from their opponent. They'll never admit to it but it happens.

reason - most of the tea parties i've read about do not have republicans speak. in fact they are adamant about it. as far as the obama is a muslim signs, they may have been plants. plenty of documentation about that from past events. If you let those little things keep you from participating then you don't think much of fighting for the right thing.

or your a troll.

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Ugh. It's pointless.

The argument is that unless we get the finances and corruption under control, we won't have the LUXURY of arguing about abortion and gay marriage!!!!! But nobody gets it.

Karl is right about this. Too bad too few see it. Time to buy more canned food I guess.

I agree with you. But let's say Karl's ideal party wins and we fix the financial problems. We then go back to arguing about bullshit and the crooks sneak back in the house again in pretty short order.

This whole argument is pointless. The problems are much deeper than this conversation indicates and have been building for close to a century. You can't really fix it now, the rot is just too deep.

A politician running for a major office such as the President cannot simply stay mum on the issues of Guns, Gays, Abortion, etc. because the people will wonder what the guy is hiding. Why is he being so evasive? What else is he hiding? They've stolen our money and gave it to the banksters, and the American people did what? Came out with a few signs and protests? Now...what if they come after our guns? Major problem. The people will DEMAND an answer on the gun issue, math or not, it WILL BE DEMANDED THAT THE GUY ANSWER THE QUESTION! Or else that candidate is fucking toast.

saluki - When people can't feed their families and don't have a job and are living hand to mouth they could give a shit about wedge issues.

I went to one Tea Party rally and I stopped going for this entire reason.... They talked about all of these "wedge" issues and I was immediately turned off... I figured there were more important issues to discuss like the rampant fraud in Washington and like...

Needless to say I have not been back to a rally...

dys, are you doing anything locally?

Karl wrote..

The only way to beat them is to refuse to play that game.

Starve the Beast -Campaign Trail Edition.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Zlow - when those hand to mouth outta work people become the majority voting populace, then the politicians will get worried. Unemployment stands at less than 10% last time I checked. Those with guns vastly outnumber your poor ol' outta work folks.

Karl,

You have hit the nail ON THE HEAD with this entry - it reflects exactly how I feel and think.

A year ago on Tax Day I felt I was doing my part, I worked like a dog to make dozens of signs for a local tea party tax day protest.

Here is a link to photos of my artwork:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sbarr/sets/....

But I was not entirely happy with the local organization to begin with. For one thing, I tried to tell people I am not going to get behind flat tax or fair tax or this tax reform or that tax reform plan B, until we elect people who RETHINK the role government should have in our lives and how much government is constitutionally allowed to spend. And somehow I picked up the vibes of Reagan false idol worship. People blame Jimmy Carter for 18% inflation. Well Reagan was all hat and no cattle. He talked tough but as far as I'm concerned he turned on the clock for the doomsday deficit device. I've seen the Grace Commission numbers.

In our recent June primary I was completely disgusted with the Republicans who won the primaries in California, and in my area. The man who won the Republican primary for my local state assembly seat was the founder of the local tea party and he stepped down as the local leader in order to run for the seat. I consider him a friend, so I emailed him and told him that I took myself off the tea party mailing list and that I cannot in any conscience support the Republican candidate who is looking to oust our current Democrat US Congressperson (stinker though she is, with her votes for big bailouts). Nor will I vote for the Republican candidate for California governor.

The tea party has allowed politics to push out principles. I don't like using my ballot to play ping-pong between two parties who like to trim spending on their least favorite programs and spend more on their own favorite programs.

So, except for two names, I'll be turning in a largely blank ballot this November. I simply don't have time to investigate all the people on the ballot to determine if they have integrity and they have conducted their personal and financial lives in a way that demonstrates that they understand why we have gotten ourselves into this economic mess.

Sad but true.

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Susan

Who gets to define what is good, moral, charitable, evil, etc.? You? Me? MTV? A Saddam? A Stalin? Any popular elected official?

To ancient Aztecs - cutting out the still beating heart of a human sacrifices (including children) was the highest order of good.
To a large percent of Muslims - killing, raping and enslaving infidels is the highest order of good.
To Hindus - Attacking, ignoring, prejudicing against and letting die for people in lower order castes is perfectly good.
To certain Pacific Tribes - eating your enemy was the highest form of good.

And I could go on for pages...

The works we think are "good" in America are good works from a Christian viewpoint:

Matthew 22:37-40 -- Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

And Jesus also said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Luke 6:31; Luke 10:27 (affirming of Moses) and Matthew 7:12)

But by no means has this "philosophy" been accepted the world over as "good or moral." Not by a long shot.

What makes murder inherently wrong (to Christians) is not that it feels wrong, but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others inherently right is not that human reason says so, but that God does: "Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."

What is "good or evil" without God? Without any footing for moral actions - anything can be rationalized as good or evil. You can just make it up as you go along. Good actions can be whatever society thinks it is with the popular culture at the time. If that be in Nazi Germany or Pol Pot's Cambodia or North Korea - that means doing "good" is slaughtering millions of people and sending millions more into misery. But, by their own human standards at the time in history, they were all doing good. Doing good to communists is talking everything you have in order to help the "common good".

We grew up and live in a country founded in Judeo-Christian values, so it may seem obvious to you what is "good." But that is due to the Judeo-Christian influences on all of us (even if we don't believe in God or have never been to a Church). To others without that kind of influence, doing "good" can be radically different.

saluki - real unemployment is around 18%. some places it is pushing 25% or more.

if you think you've got the guns to stop the zombie invasion you are sadly mistaken.

if you think you can enforce a moral will on others via the barrel of a gun i guarantee you there will be plenty of guns on the other side of that discussion.

I do not see the point of making any sort of obstruction to the plan gen has outlined here.

There is nothing to loose in throwings one weight behind it, considering that other method failed.

Let's note, also, that tea parties always were an "open ideologie" movement. They never had a specific mission which put boudaries on where they could ideologically go.

All replicas of the original cell that were done could then choose to campain for whatever the hell it liked. Fundamental problem no 1 is the lack of ideological structure and restrictions. Think that it's already hard for people to respect the consitution in spite of the clarity of its language. What can happen when there isn't even that?

2banana - yes, the country is founded on judeo-christian values. but we are not a christian country. you are certainly welcome to move to another country where cutting out the beating heart of a man is a good thing. or flying airplanes into buildings full of innocent people is a good thing. or mutilating the genitalia of an 8 year old girl is a good thing. or cutting off the hands of thieves is a good thing.

2b, thanks for clarifying your position.

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Americans need to stop claiming stupidity to get out of responsibility. -Tsk

Zlow - Not a troll. I was there and those are not little things. I will continue to fight for the right things by speaking out to all the intelligent people I know and don't know. I will continue to write the current occupants of elected offices as I've always done as well as those running for public office. I will continue to participate in my local community groups that are focused fighting Govt waste, fraud and spending and taxes. I will continue to write letters to the editor and media outlets.

It's very simple I abide by this idea....

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson


Spending, Fraud, Corruption are not party issues, they are not liberal or conservative or libertarian issues. It's about the LAW.

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"He that goes a borrowing goes a sorrowing." .....
"No man's life, liberty or fortune is safe while our legislature is in session."
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

reason -

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What is "good or evil" without God? Without any footing for moral actions - anything can be rationalized as good or evil.

Pray tell, how can You know whether or not a Person really has any spirituality upon which to predicate their 'moral footing' if 'moral footing' is truly predicated thus?

Stop getting taking in by this hokum.

Morality based on Religious Dogma is as variable as Religious Dogmas are.

I don't require Dogma of any kind to perceive and identify right and wrong when I experience either of them.

God gave You five senses.
Stop waiting to be told by God how to use them -and use them.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Thank you Throxx! This point needs to get repeated every time this line is trotted out.

You can never know whether someone is lying about their "faith in God" until they act. Thus, you can only truly judge based on actions, and then there's no point to consider *why* someone acted morally, only that they do, God or not.

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Just as being tolerant of others' religions doesn't make you a Deist, being tolerant (but not accepting) of others' social constructs doesn't make you a libral.

Amen. I have a hard time convincing people of this...

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"(The Fed) is in the business of imposing false values." - Jim Grant
"When the fear of losing money overcomes the fear of being thought stupid, that's when you get capitulation." - Art Cashin

Good Ticker Gen: but to really be effective people first have to take aim at the political professionals. They make millions for winning. The stakes couldn't be higher. I believe political consultants get 15% of everything for a political campaigns.

It may be lower if the candidate has the wattage to choose among many consultants but for those who don't have that power which is most, consultants make huge money. Think Tanks have much to gain. Lobbyists have much to gain. The Staff members of politicians have much to gain. Reputation first then big bucks as a lobbyist. They are as important as getting a former elected official. The elected official may draw clients but it's the former staff member who get things done.

The legal profession has much to gain. I could go on, but just listing all the people from the media to anyone who makes money off campaign dollars would take 100 lines and on each side they have a counterpart on the other side. The side that wins the most gets paid the most the next time out.

There are few where sides don't matter as long as they can be a conduit, a well paid one for the message. The media. Think of all the national and local ads that will be run. Controversy sells, corruption doesn't, because talking about corruption limits "access". Access is seen as Power in the media. They do not want to piss off the people that open doors for them.

Go after the professional political class and that is step one of many to get to the central issue of corruption. It's huge onion with many layers to peel off until the core is reached. Otherwise it's religious issues on the right and Gay issues to Abortion on the left. Many other small things too will be blown up too , anything to use up a 24 news cycle. Corruption? No. Off limits. Media who go there, will never get in there again.

Only after corruption has been dealt with head on by both sides collectively after taking the political professionals out of the picture can there be honest debate about what kind of society that we want. The urgency couldn't be greater and frankly that is what the pros are counting on. When you have more money then you can ever spend then you really don't care if another 4 trillion in debt piles up between now and the next cycle or how many homes are lost or how many people die because of toxic policy or how many dollars in hard earned savings are lost by people who lived conservative lifestyles to make their own security. None of it matters.

All you have to do is ask yourselves when have you ever seen lasting cuts in govt that weren't taken over by other spending which increased the over-all debt and have done a significant majority of people in the country one iota of good.

The Tax code is one big favor book. People who have been after simplification have been shouted off the stage on both sides. Spending large sums of money means power. A person making 170G a year can be a swing vote on a few hundred billion? That's serious power. That's why it's a bubble that can't be pierced until the political pros who lead the pols around by the noses are dealt with.

I'm not even sure how you do that because most of them aren't any more recognizable than the movie agents in Hollywood which may be why recognition is a good place to start. A listing of who made what on which campaign could be an explosive list and a damn good start to finding out who is driving the train. Other than that, look for the same old s**t on a different day. People who hate liberals like people here who shouted at me assuming I was a liberal, and I shouted back are being pushed on both sides by pros that knows what emotions to drive. It's market tested, poll tested, BP tested, and refined and tested again and that becomes the new message guaranteed to tear at old scabs.

They are good too. Underestimating them is a huge mistake. You'll know that when one works you over good. Good luck.

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"Bring out your dead"-a new alternative to Health care reform

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You obviously just have a wingnut Tea Party there in Niceville.

Out here in Calif (and from what I can tell, around most of the country), Tea Parties are 100% fiscal conservatism and limited government.

That's probably because a social conservative's views on social issues are more "devout" than a social liberal's views on social issues. I guess this is because most social conservatives derive those views from religion.

Social conservatives have a real problem with letting those wedge issues dominate their political opinions generally speaking. As many have said the politicians know this and use it against them. Therefore, they cloud a movement originally about fiscal conservatism.

Out in Cali, a more socially liberal environment, there isn't that domination and they are able to focus on fiscal issues.

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"(The Fed) is in the business of imposing false values." - Jim Grant
"When the fear of losing money overcomes the fear of being thought stupid, that's when you get capitulation." - Art Cashin

Quote:

but to really be effective people first have to take control of their local political chapters. aim at the political professionals.

ftfy

Zlow_hand wrote..

dys, are you doing anything locally?

Unfortunately I'm not... Unfortunately what these Tea Party members are focusing on is not an immediate danger to our country in my mind.

They spent a good 15-20 minutes discussing sex education in middle school and how some forms of materials were promoting homosexuality... I just shook my head and left.

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If you allow these issues to become part of your campaign, you will not only lose you will cause the party that most-agrees with you to lose.

One loses the precise second he agrees that his rights are subject to anyone else's approval, and joins the Great Herd on the drive to the ballot.

-- It's all downhill from there; and all that remains to be decided is the degree of loss which you will endure.

"...To even submit the matter to a vote represents a grievous assault on the very idea of rights...." http://groups.google.com/group/alt.curre....

"...They know the whole fucking charade would fall right over if they could not claim to 'represent' us...." http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php?id=P....

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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy

dys - sorry to hear that. that crap is not going to help the tea partiers at all.

there are plenty of places to help out if you are so inclined.