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2023-03-25 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in Health Reform , 852 references Ignore this thread
No Cure, No Pay *
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Who's got the nuts to put this on the table in the upcoming elections for CMS and HHS?

No cure, no pay.

Not less pay, no pay.

How different would the last three years have been if Trump had stood up in March of 2020 and given this speech:

We have a novel virus circulating in our nation and indeed the world.  We understand little of it at the present time, but this is America, the land of innovation, and I'm convinced we have the capacity to understand what this virus is doing and how to stop it from being lethal.

We will not learn that in a day, and there are no certainties in life.  We are all mortal, myself included.  But, what we know from history, both here and elsewhere, is that incentives matter and driven men and women will find answers.  We have set foot on the moon and conquered atomic power for peaceful generation of electricity despite both appearing, at first glance, to be impossible.

But since incentives must never make failure profitable under the Emergency Authorities delegated to myself in the event of a public health emergency I am issuing the following constraints:

  • No medical provider will be paid by the Federal Government, and no private insurance concern that is regulated and authorized under federal jurisdiction, including but not limited to PPACA, otherwise known as Obamacare, VA and similar entities, for failure to reach a successful conclusion of a Covid-19 case.  Success means you leave medical care under your own power in essentially the same condition before you were stricken by this infection.  Death is the most-obvious failure -- but not the only one. Death within one year after infection from a covid-related cause, as but one example, is a presumptive failure.  CMS, the VA and all auditing agencies under Obamacare will be directed to examine all such events under which payment is made.

  • The Federal Government will act with all of its authority to facilitate the use by the medical arts of any and all available medical interventions applied to or upon willing patients to prevent, lessen or treat this disease, subject to the above.  No State government, licensing board or other entity shall interfere with the clinical judgment of a physician or other entity in this regard, provided that informed consent is obtained from the person with the illness.

  • The Federal Government will require, and all medical providers shall document via electronic means, which was introduced as a requirement for charting with the PPACA, all such contacts, all interventions, treatments or preventatives that are applied, and the resulting outcomes.  That data, de-identified, will be placed into a public-facing database that is searchable by any member of the public, including but not limited of course to clinicians, hospitals, doctors, nurses and laypeople.  Any attempt to obstruct, delay or otherwise tamper with this data flow and access shall be treated as computer tampering under existing United States federal law and prosecuted.  We trust that the people of this nation, the finest on the planet, will be able to sift through that which works, that which does not, and make decisions on an ever-refined basis until the risk of this novel virus fades.  I call upon Congress to mandate this on a permanent basis and will veto every bill that comes across my desk until it is passed.  We have the capacity to empower everyone, from the lowliest service industry worker up the line, to evaluate and choose countermeasures and treatments for all manner of disease and disorder.  We can do this and we will do this -- right now for this virus, and forevermore for every medical malady that befalls humankind in this nation.

  • For the duration of this public health emergency any countermeasure in the form of a drug that currently requires a prescription and is desired to be used by a member of the public for his or her own personal use shall be made available over the counter at all licensed pharmacies.  This shall not be construed to permit the dispensation of opioids, their analogs, or other scheduled drugs that have substantial addictive capacity, such as methamphetamine analogs used for ADHD and similar.  Pharmacists shall check for drug interactions or known contra-indications should a member of the public desire such a drug and warn against any known interactions or cautions but may not refuse to dispense the drug.  A pharmacist who so dispenses an amount suitable for personal use is immune from all sanction, civil or criminal, for so doing and the outcome of such use and shall label all such dispensations as "at personal risk" conspicuously on the bottle.  Any pharmacist refusing to dispense, or any corporate entity refusing to so permit shall be personally, severably and corporately liable for manslaughter should the person seeking that drug subsequently die from Covid-19.  

Finally, no party in this nation shall violate your Constitutional right to free assembly, engage in interstate travel, worship or commerce -- not now, and not ever in the face of this or any other disease, disorder or virus.  The Department of Justice will bring immediate prosecution against any and all actors who attempt to do so and place all such persons under immediate arrest.  This does not prohibit a state or local health authority from enforcing a quarantine upon an actually-ill and contagious individual but no person shall be deemed guilty by association or inference in that regard and any intent or attempt at mass-declarations are hereby deemed void and whatever federal force is necessary to prevent that from occurring will be used.  We will vigorously enforce the law against all corporate and State actors who take any action whatsoever in violation of the Constitutional Rights of the citizens of this nation, without exception.  There shall be no forced medical treatment in this nation -- not now and not ever.  This is not Nazi Germany and never shall be.  If you have the absolute right to engage in risky personal sexual practices that could kill you, and the Supreme Court has found that indeed you do, then you have the right to refuse any medical treatment or prophylaxis; if other persons are threatened by your mere presence as a result of your decision to refuse or accept some medical intervention they have every right to take the protective measures they deem fit for their person but have no right to force it upon you.  If a prophylaxis will protect you then it will protect those who choose it, and those who do not are free to make that decision just as we allow people to consume any amount of alcohol they wish even though we know that in excess it is dangerous and even lethal.  In a free society individuals make these decisions and accept the consequences.  This is America, that is the precept on which it was founded, and for as long as I am President that principle shall be upheld and enforced with every authority at my command.

America is the finest nation this planet has ever known.  I took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic; that oath was neither a suggestion or mere political theater.  May God bless America for as long as we respect the foundational principles of our great nation, and for as long as I hold this office I shall do exactly that.

Trump was no man and unfit to be President.  He was a scared mouse believing that a virus was an evil cat about to eat him and everyone else.  That was false, known false within weeks as soon as Diamond Princess occurred and not a thing has changed since.

That speech above, perhaps with a declaration that if we found that another nation was the source due to malfeasance or worse they would be held fully accountable for the final toll of cost in both treasure and money, is what a person who is fit to be President would have delivered.

Trump's failure to do so cost over one million American lives, most of which should not have been lost.  Biden's failure to correct this course publicly before the election and immediately upon taking the office confirms he is no more fit than Trump and equally liable. 

This may have been speculation in March of 2020 but no longer is; it is all now known to be fact.  While retrospection cannot change the past it must guide our future and any person who wishes to sit in the left seat of this nation from the election of 2024 forward must deliver this speech's equivalent right here, right now.

Where is the candidate that will deliver this speech and demand it be backed with force of law, not just a threat to do so by Executive Order, down the road?  Were this to be policy there would be no market for "cancer treatments" that don't actually cure cancer.  You'd have to find answers to whatever is going on or you don't get paid.

The doctor who puts you on Statins and then 10 years later we find no change in all-cause mortality would have all of the funds paid by any PPACA or government program (e.g. Medicaid, Medicare, etc.) clawed back along with all the funds paid for the drugs.  No cure, no pay.

Is "Ozempic" the answer to obesity?  I don't know -- but if it isn't, and the all-cause rate of death does not go down in people using it for "weight loss" the same thing happens.  No cure, no pay.

Can you choose to do it anyway?  Sure!  You most-certainly can; this is a free country.

But if there is no cure, then no subsidized, socialized and forced payment scheme will fork up a single nickel, and during the period of time when something new is going on that we do not understand very well, such as Covid, the people choose -- not the government, not the hospitals, not the doctors and not the pharmacists.  Those who try to prevent you from choosing take personal criminal liability if you are prohibited that choice and then die.  If a threat to your person is in fact lethal then you have every right to make the decision as to which countermeasures you will use and which you will not in a free nation.

You choose, and you accept the consequences since, in the end, all such consequences are always personal.

No?  You won't stand up here and now and enforce all of the above?

Then we deserve to fail as a nation, and fail we shall.

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Cmoledor 3k posts, incept 2021-04-13
2023-03-25 08:54:58

Fail we shall. Or is it fail we have? I know. Im jaded. Cheers all

The whole world is one big fucking scam
Its a big club and we aint in it. But we damn sure pay the dues. Rangeishot 2/17/2023
God will NOT help anyone. Prayer is only worthwhile as a boost to
Blanca 585 posts, incept 2020-07-25
2023-03-25 08:55:03

Tickerguy wrote:
Trump was no man and unfit to be President. He was a scared mouse believing that a virus was an evil cat about to eat him and everyone else. That was false, known false within weeks and not a thing has changed since.
I am trying to think whether there has ever been an elected official/bureaucrat that has actually admitted a mistake. I remember RR said "mistakes were made" but he didn't own them. Given that many of our politicians are in elective office for decades, how do they manage to never make a mistake?

An adult admits his mistakes, owns them, and attempts restitution. A child hides them and lies about them when caught.

A few years ago I had an uncomfortable conversation with a boss. He was blown away when I admitted that I was wrong and wouldn't do it again. After that, we had a great relationship - he trusted me and I trusted him. Food for thought.
Prof_dilligaf 556 posts, incept 2021-09-02
2023-03-25 08:55:14

Is "Ozempic" the answer to obesity?

Has a pill ever actually cured any of the "lifestyle" diseases? There might be a few, but none come immediately to mind, and I'm willing to bet most of those would have side effects potentially worse than the original disease.
Oliver1655 385 posts, incept 2012-08-02
2023-03-25 08:55:19

Awesome !!

This is what true responsible leadership and true freedom looks like.

The local toll on people I know who have admitted being to being stabbed continues to grow.

Heart attacks, strokes, deafness, sudden appendicitis, reproductive harm, brain fog, lack of concentration and "thuddenlies" continues to grow.
Leber 149 posts, incept 2021-11-27
2023-03-25 08:55:32

Your approach (no cure, no pay) was common in traditional Chinese society.
People paid a retainer to a doctor, obligating him to visit your sick bed if it came to that. Upon care & particularly cure, people would pay generously out of gratitude, the wealthier they were, the more they would give. Obviously the practioner had to be wary of any iatrogenic effects, since those would cut off his path to any reward.
This traditional interaction carried over even to missionary doctors, who were already receiving a salary, but still received gifts of gratitude.
Incentives matter ... Western medicine has been organized to break the link between reward and cures.
Ocdawg 572 posts, incept 2019-03-14
2023-03-25 08:55:41


Alas... no such candidate exists and sadly we're too far over the edge... the "Let's forgive and forget" campaign is in full flight...


"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."- George Carlin
GO DAWGS!!! Quietly reloading.....
Generalee 268 posts, incept 2011-04-30
2023-03-25 08:59:12

People don't remember how long it took our beloved cdc to figure out the Hantavirus outbreak several decades ago. Why they never figured out the China virus says it all. Why is it that Claritin or xyzal get to be otc when Nasonex is off patent and still requires script. Everything is rigged by the money mongers on Wall St. and lawyers. Can't have free enterprise work for everyone, just the leeches.
Tickler 101 posts, incept 2013-09-12
2023-03-25 10:45:40

Our host chooses this path as we all choose to live in this squalor we call life...
"Then we deserve to fail as a nation, and fail we shall." ...

He has the precise vocabulary and evidently health to move forward as the leader should any of his fellow volunteers persuade him to be the chosen one. How would he use the hammer when roadblocks were placed before him? Would his brain trust and implementation team be able to execute targets beneficial for the resuscitation of America?

I will stand by his side or carry on with the goal if he becomes impaired if I were to be chosen as a worthy replacement (no FEAR for me).

I will not run for I can barely walk.
Workerbee23 301 posts, incept 2021-09-15
2023-03-25 11:13:48

Dr Pierre Kory did an excellent substack post in regards to a Scott Atlas article. A lot of info from behind the scenes during the pandemic fiasco.

What a Sh*tshow.

The problem with KD's post is it's logical and shows a (more) than basic understanding of human nature.

John Q Public no longer wants logic, rejecting it outright and understanding themselves and/or anyone else is definitely off the table. They have been trained (and chosen to accept that training) to believe whatever they're told and to completely put their trust into absolute strangers.

I guess if they aren't strange men in a panel van with ice cream or a puppy, they must be OK.

Slightly off topic but interesting:

I'm not a fan of crypto in any capacity, but the author points out some interesting things that I haven't seen anywhere else in the "news". Things that make you go hmmm.

Fredx 79 posts, incept 2019-01-01
2023-03-25 11:14:20

Outstanding speech. However, had he given that speech I fear he would have been dead by Tuesday.
Raven 17k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-03-25 11:14:27

"Where is the candidate ...?"

Where are the people who would elect him.

Some logic:

Trump is a certain type of clinical narcissist. My friend calls them "Upper Lesser Type B".

Was watching a documentary regarding my home town players, their downfall and have read and researched other things regarding the targeting of organized criminals. The authorities almost always go after them when they are old men. They know what i know. It was stated in the documentary and in the other sources known to me that when these guys are old, they are terrified of prison.

This is why the FBI waits until they are old to start threatening them very hard with the hammer. They have behavioral scientists who advise them, no doubt from what i have researched. How does this apply to Trump?

They are both the same type with perhaps the org criminals of immigrant stock being one notch above which makes them even more pathetic and apt to wimp out. They and Trump are very effective bullies when they have the resources and a way to carve out their own little niches. This is what Trump did all of his life to be the bully but not have to face things.

Trump was an old man when he was elected thinking like the pathetic types described above.

Then Trump got a disease in his face and others possessed of NPD but much greater than him in ability to manipulate played his ultimate fear of death and disease well beyond high fastidiousness of a normal person.

So where does this apply to the voters as Karl and i mention. They are very much like Trump in actuality of condition or tendency which we all have. Many of the folks who have always liked Trump were wimps like him but could feel strong aping his style or supporting it. Many wanna be mafia types also shared this bully admiration. They are much more common than one realizes. My former community was a nexus of them.

The problem is that from celebrities, to pundits, to parenting, to performers, to athletes, to enforcers, all the way to politicians; a large part of society prefers the bully as an extension of itself.

The bully always folds when it needs to face something personally. Trumps only work out for society when times are good and the economy is flush with cash. No one bothered the casino mavens when there was lots of money flying around. When times got tight and they got old, then the weakness could not keep their coterie together.

Then the bigger bullies promised to protect everyone and the original bully himself just like a witness protection or plea deal.


Now we are living under bigger bullies. Others come after them, worse.

You will be there unless you start demanding accountability from yourselves and those with whom you associate.

Do not let those of us who figure that we will be the ones left to clean up the final mess to hold you accountable lest we decide that there is only one thing that you understand: oppression.

All great wrongs begin with a lie.
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-03-25 11:17:12

Nice excuse-making @Fredx; so you voted for the nut-less wonder? What if there had been an ACTUAL WAR? You know, a real one where a sack and pair of testicles were necessary or we were all going to fucking glow in the dark?

You voted to die, and it appears you'll be happy to do it again.

Well then when you die make sure you don't try to blame it on someone else.
You will though, won't you?

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."
Tappedout 318 posts, incept 2020-09-21
2023-03-25 11:26:32

What I refer to as a "McDonalds Drive Through" society has been the norm for quite a while.

You know...the people who call 911 because McD's is out of BBQ sauce for their nuggets....

Now imagine people being refused treatments and services because it's determined that the "cure" probability is under 0.5, and therefore more risk than reward for the med/pharma cartel.

Interesting theory though.....kind of like Communism and Socialism.

I don't know what percentage of people are a physical/health train wreck...I just know that it's a high percentage. And those people want their nuggets with BBQ and their insulin. Pronto, and cheap.
Tsherry 15k posts, incept 2008-12-09
2023-03-25 11:35:36

Outstanding speech. However, had he given that speech I fear he would have been dead by Tuesday.

OK. Sometimes ones' death reveals that the true purpose of that man's life is to serve as motivation for others to take action.

Killing Trump would have resulted in a bigger bloodbath than the First Civil War. That, in the end, would likely still result in fewer deaths than those blamed on Covid.

IQ plus a promethean mindset matters.-Eleua

1 Thessalonians 4:11 Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-03-25 11:35:21

@Tappedout ah but see that just means the price becomes the inverse of the probability. It makes things like RunDeathIsNear radioactive, since by the data that kills 20% of the people its given to by destroying their kidney function. Nobody in their right mind would administer it when one time in five it means you don't get paid AT ALL for ANYTHING you did during that hospital stay.

You miss the essential element of this which is that since ANYONE can walk into a pharmacy, say "gimme" and pay for whatever (so long as its not an addictive substance), and de-identified records will ALL be in a public-facing database where ANYONE can analyze conditions, what's done and the outcomes we will VERY quickly learn what works and what does not for any condition, and the risk of such is 100% on the person being their own doctor.

Henry Ford had a 60% success protocol. With minor modifications (e.g. swapping a non-Zpak antibiotic prophylaxis against secondary bacterial pneumonia co-infection, adding Budesonide when lung involvement begins and, for those who fail to respond to Budesonide when lung involvement starts, Hydroxyurea) would have within weeks to a couple of months made mortality from Covid an effective zero.

That's the data folks and no amount of arm-waving by anyone will ever change it. We now have the data, plenty of people tried to hide it, but it got out anyway. It was the hiding and refusal to allow people to run their own experiments of one with exposure of all the data that this generated that is WHY all these people are dead. The first couple of months, sure -- but by then we had a 60% reduction on the table and within a couple more months it would have been 90%+ and virtually ALL of the hospitalizations would have NOT occurred. These are facts.

If this is done and enforced the same will be true for most other conditions. People WILL choose on their own when "refused" because the doc doesn't like the odds but if it works it will be days before people know and once they know why do you need the doc, other than to diagnose the condition?

Do you want to fix problems or make excuses and further the armed robbery of the American people?

Sample sizes of 330 million provide VERY solid statistical evidence very quickly, and that evidence is by definition correct. For other than surgery-required interventions (e.g. trauma, etc.) the entire "medical complex" becomes 100% advisory on a "pay for opinion, but not treatment" basis and you choose, with all the data in front of you. That's how it should have been decades ago and this forces that on a universal basis because if you try to set "standards" they had better work or you don't get paid.

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."

Raven 17k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-03-25 11:51:07

While i am highlighting bully behavior, let me also mention something which i saw in white spades in my old community.

ALL, NOT SOME, ALL of the tough guy types, you know the ones who have been bullies since grade school, borderline criminals if not actually or hanging around with them, the in-your-face loudmouths who do their own thing regardless of who likes it, you get the idea; what did they do?

THEY WERE ALL MASKHOLES, locking themselves up, worrying, getting shots, worried about others touching them or being near them and giving in to the females in their lives imposing caution on them at all times. Once again, you get the idea.

I never saw so much fear in my life and enjoyed every minute of it.

Almost appreciate the authorities for this fucking mess even with my own losses due to said mess as it was the greatest entertainment and validation of who are really WIMPS.

All great wrongs begin with a lie.
Austin 271 posts, incept 2008-10-22
2023-03-25 11:51:26

''if Trump had stood up in March of 2020 and given this speech ''

oh come on ,, even if he had, every CDC FDA MSM , hospital , state , university hospital doctor , UN , WEF , would have clamored for the very actions that were taken. MSM in particular would have formed public opinion .

maybe jesus save you
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-03-25 11:55:00

So what @Austin?

Again, within TWO MONTHS of this starting THE DATA WAS OUT IN THE PUBLIC from Henry Ford and I reported on it at the time. If that data COULD NOT be censored and anyone could have walked into a pharmacy and demanded the goods, and as refined further the data was that this was a nuisance-level and easily-managed infection all those people would have been given the finger immediately.

You are giving license to a PUSSY who was unfit for office in the first instance and SITLL IS. You're further giving those people agency to KILL YOU.

That makes YOU a pussy and unfit as well - as the head of a family or anything else.

Nut up or shut up.

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."

Cary 118 posts, incept 2021-12-26
2023-03-25 11:55:39

Anyone who has experience in the real world knows that you get exactly what you incentivize. For many years at my company I was involved in the design of some of the incentive plans for our front line employees. Now a few would always cheat and get caught and fired. Most wouldn't take that risk, but they were masters about figuring out any loophole or way to maximize their return. It was important to think hard about what was actually being rewarded and if that was what was best for the business. You would have thought someone like Trump, from the business world unlike most politicians, would have understood that. I know real estate is different, but I thought incentives were often part of construction contracts.
Beeline 16 posts, incept 2023-02-18
2023-03-25 12:15:15

Blanca, Governor Ron DeSantis is that man.

No, I am not trying to portray him as a saint. I am merely giving him the credit he is due for actually admitting that the lockdowns were a big mistake.

He made made some feeble attempts to fix some of the damage too.

Do I think that's good enough? No I don't.

What I do think is that anyone who was pro-lockdowns, pro-masks, pro-"social distance", etc. is unfit for public office.

I would consider, on a case-by-case basis, voting for someone who admitted he did the wrong thing.

I voted for President Trump twice. The second time, I did so reluctantly. I thought perhaps he would realize his mistakes, there were certainly enough people trying to tell him.

He just owned the entire covid response. That's the end of that.

Raven 17k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-03-25 12:27:20

"I know real estate is different, but I thought incentives were often part of construction contracts."


Real Estate is so full of BS and ill-logic that one would be amazed. Many "making it" in the profession can barely speak or write which themselves are basic hindrances to success in said.

Trump is a scam artist who moves from one scam to another until there is no other and no other for society.

HINT: there are still a few more scams for our society and you are not going to like them.

Oh thanks @Cary , you made my morning.

All great wrongs begin with a lie.
Beeline 16 posts, incept 2023-02-18
2023-03-25 12:27:47

I'm so tired of people telling me what would have happened had Trump done the right things.

Someone tried to tell me that "they" would have had him removed for not listening to the experts.

It was his team, they were his "experts", and Anthony Fauci and Deborah Birx had records of failure already.

No, Fauci was not already in place when Trump got there.

Trump could have removed him any time he wanted to. No, he did not "sideline" Fauci either.

If it were true that his hands were tied and unseen forces, some "they" were calling the shots, why didn't he quit and go home?
Tappedout 318 posts, incept 2020-09-21
2023-03-25 13:44:58

"Do you want to fix problems or make excuses and further the armed robbery of the American people?"

I'd love to fix problems.

The first problem that needs to be fixed, however, will only come with either all out economic collapse, revolution, some form of civil war, or combination of those.

Our country, both the political system and the people are broken. We have no viable candidates for leading the country out of this, and not even an acknowledgment of what problems need to be addressed.

We have a system that is a train wreck failure in progress, where no one who would propose the necessary changes could ever get elected, let alone enact them.

Those are not excuses. They are reality.

I love your theory. Makes perfect sense. I don't pay my local mechanic or body shop for anything but a "cure", as just one example, so why the med/pharma cartel? Because they have the power. And to take their power requires having more power.

That level of power only exists with the people who withdraw their consent to be governed. Any ideas on a realistic blueprint to get the necessary numbers on board? There's concept, and then there's execution. If the concept cannot be executed then it's akin to a fantasy.

At best, there will be a transition to what you describe as the funding dries up. People will be pocket picked by means testing and higher fees. The rich will get whatever they want. The middle class will make difficult decisions, and as always, the poor will be screwed.
Invisiblesun 884 posts, incept 2020-04-08
2023-03-25 14:51:29

It is time to make Trump own his failure. For it is obvious that without recognition and contrition of his mistake that Trump, if he gains political power over others, he will fail again in some way new way that causes immense damage.
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