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 Reality vis-a-vis Energy And The Economy
Supertruckertom 8k posts, incept 2010-11-07
2022-01-03 18:23:56


Preparing to go Hunting.
Thegreatunwashed 289 posts, incept 2021-09-13
2022-01-03 18:24:04

Serious question - would it not be extremely dangerous to launch a boat off a ramp with an electric vehicle? Of course if done correctly only the trailer should get into the water, not the vehicle. But, a simple search of boat ramp mishaps will tell you that that is not always the case.

I will have NO survivor's guilt, except a bit of shame for all my Schadenfreude.
Indianarube 1k posts, incept 2020-03-22
2022-01-03 18:24:13

A ban hammer a day, keeps the morons at bay.

Keeps everyone else on their toes too.
Ulquito 3 posts, incept 2015-04-01
2022-01-03 18:26:51

Zach the tin man. UFB! Hammered in just 5 minutes. LMFAO
Mjeff87 4k posts, incept 2021-11-22
2022-01-03 19:24:48

Hanssnachs wrote..
Nature bats last. She bats 1.000, too.

Yes. Yes She does.

Si Vis Pacem, para Bellum

You'll get less than you desire, but more than you deserve
Bluto 3k posts, incept 2021-07-10
2022-01-03 19:25:01

It is really about transitioning to a two-tiered society. The ultra-rich, and the rest of us.

The elites hate the fact that we can travel. They just want us to stay at home (under "lockdown") and go into work and make widgets for them. No vacations. No time outside. No play time.

We've already seen travel between countries limited (or even banned in many cases). Intra-country travel has also been banned in some places like Canada and Australia.

And even in the US, National Parks out west are starting to implement restrictive reservation systems to limit and deny access.

EVs sounds great in theory, but the range is limited. Exactly what the controllers want.

".... Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" -- James 4:7
Drifter 2k posts, incept 2016-02-11
2022-01-03 19:25:15

You guys see the vid of a guy blowing up his Tesla?

I might do the same for my '12 Leaf-- basically just a local car now. What they don't tell you about EVs: winter sucks your battery; your battery will degrade over time; the faster you go, the quicker your battery drains; it cannot be your primary driver; and, if you want to replace your Leaf battery, it's over $8,500 now.

Bought mine used, knew all of the above: in my situation an EV works and has paid for itself in fuel savings. However, when the battery is toast, wtf will I do with the car? What fool will put $8,500 into a 10 y/o car that they paid $8,500 for?

Only green thing about an EV-- no oil changes. That's it.

Wish we could get some European cars over here. Drove a VW Up, diesel, for two weeks. My god what a fun car and the MPG was insane-- 55mpg.
Bluto 3k posts, incept 2021-07-10
2022-01-03 19:26:08

So I listened to one of these scammers once when I asked for an estimate to get solar on my roof. I already knew what the peak efficiency number was for a SOUTH facing roof with stationary panels.

My roof is east-west, so I ask this ******* the efficiency number, and what does he give me? The number for a SOUTH-facing roof!

So basically, right off the bat, we are at 2X the cost just because of how my roof, and statistically speaking half the roofs in the US are facing. Of course, he doesn't tell me this, but I know I will only get 50% of the power, at best, of what he is quoting.

The other things that never get discussed are these items:

-- Up-front cost of tree trimming so sunlight reaches the roof
-- Recurring cost of tree trimming
-- Recurring cost of cleaning the panels from dust, pollen, etc... The latter is really bad here in Florida since peak pollen season is March, which is then followed by our three driest months, before the rainy season starts in June, but then you get more clouds with the humidity
-- Significant cost of removal and re-installation when the roof gets replaced

And that is just is for the solar panels. We aren't even talking about the batteries.

".... Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" -- James 4:7
Tommygunner 15 posts, incept 2021-12-05
2022-01-03 19:26:46

Not only does Net Zero carbon violate the Laws of Thermodynamics.
It breaks the laws of supply and demand.
I have posted before that there is simply not enough raw materials being produced at todays numbers for the developed world go green. Cant be done. Many New mines must be brought on line to achieve the Net Zero so called "Goal".
Just copper and silver alone. The world would need to double production by 2030 to even start to meet the demands of EV production, and build the electrical infrastructure needed to support Zero Carbon. Then you have bans on natural gas heat. That means more demand on the electrical grid to run heat pumps, electric heaters, air conditioning, ect. All of this crap takes metal. Lots of metal.
Copper production from existing mines is set to go into deficit in 2025. The largest copper mines in the world are running out of cheap to produce high grade ore.
Mined silver, needed for solar panels, controls, solid state, Batteries, ect. It already in deficit. Mined silver does not quite meet today's demand. The shortfall is made up with recycled silver. Much of the silver produced in the world today is a byproduct of copper mining. Without an increase in copper mining. Silver production will decrease.
Mining is met with hostility here in North America. By the time an new mine makes its way through the courts and protests. It can take 20 years from discovery to production.
Mining in other countries has its problems too. With the Nationalizations, closings, and high taxation of mines in Socialist countries, like what is happening in South America. Production will fall. In the unstable third world you have extortion by armed militias, and the possibility of a shooting war breaking out on mine properties.
Mining companies are reluctant to go in, spend billions, and develop new mines that they might have to write off.
Metal production is a dirty, polluting business. It consumes huge amounts of energy, from ore extraction, to the finished product.
Without metals and a massive increase in mining. Net Zero ain't happening folks. I have yet to see a copper tree.

The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it wont be needed till they try to take it.
Neil 4 posts, incept 2021-12-21
2022-01-03 19:30:20

Peak oil, "ice age is coming"!
"The ****in rain Forest is disappearing by 250,000 acres a year", followed by a million acres a year!

All 1970's environmental-case horse****!

Hop along to the 90's... "the earth is warming"!
Al Gore effs people in the A,( let's forget about his jet and or his big ass electric bill) somewhere about 5-8 years ago the global warming will cause an ice age...

It's all total bull****!

I say let's all head to a swamp next spring and stomp the **** out of some frogs and then see if the area does just fine this year, let's build a bridge in said sawmp n see if the wild life actually gives a **** or two.

Oh, oh but look we can do anything we wish as long as we agree to pay other humans money.

Ice age, heating up no matter just pay some rich people some money oh and the government don't forget your ignorant face diaper and you can do anything!

Say you too might be able to start some one's house because you're wealthy and you think their house pollutes too much!!

Patrick58 300 posts, incept 2019-08-08
2022-01-03 19:54:05

Another superlative post TG.
Agree 100%. I'm an ex-non mil nukie who worked on a few BWR's, and a new PWR (a long time ago). Ignorance is bliss until the light switch doesn't seem to work, as well as the coffee maker, electric clock, and that furnace won't fire up.

It's going to get interesting when the rolling blackouts commence, particularly when the temps get into the single digits and the electric blanket doesnt heat up! (Time to drain the pipes!)
Debtfree2200 1k posts, incept 2015-10-29
2022-01-03 20:04:55


If done correctly.....I fish freshwater and at many of the ramps around here I need to go all four tires of my truck in the water to get the boat off. If the water level is at a certain range, I have to drive quit a bit into the water to float the boat. I made sure to put in a two way vent for the rear diff high up next the gas filler cap because of this. Front, Transmission and diff were already vented high.

I would think there would be a problem if an EV truck had to go in past the rails repeatedly since there's a difference between rain water and soaking it.
Goldbrick 7k posts, incept 2008-01-23
2022-01-03 20:09:35

Hot damn, the first ban of the new year!

"The higher I go, the crookeder it gets." --Michael Corleone
Keenan 538 posts, incept 2013-01-11
2022-01-03 20:20:49

Here in my neighborhood of frequently cloudy western Pennsylvania I note a number of homes with recently installed solar panels. Even worse than the gray skies, which reduce photovoltaic power output, I've never seen any of these owners bother to remove winter snow from the panels.
Austin 271 posts, incept 2008-10-22
2022-01-04 08:16:32

a bit of humor
Traelin0 563 posts, incept 2021-01-28
2022-01-04 08:16:41

If someone can't understand every single iota of what you just wrote, Karl, then they have no ****ing business holding public office. Current or future.

Period, end of statement. We need to dump the paper pushers and enlist the doers.
Wakesetter 44 posts, incept 2010-06-08
2022-01-04 08:16:47

@TG - Honing the culling skills for 2022???

Just curious, what was the body count for 2021?

"Parasites cant sustain prosperity." - Doug Casey
Purplefang 717 posts, incept 2010-03-28
2022-01-04 08:16:59

The allure of getting something for nothing is very powerful. I am sure in their minds sunlight is free, wind is free. All the government has to do is mandate we go green and get everything for free. Government mandates are free too. It's magic. Legislators put words on a page and vote. What could be easier than that? Free solutions to every problem. Not only can we solve our problems with more taxes we can double our free **** with deficit spending. Everything is fun and games till the magical thinking kills the real source of the available energy. Nothing is a barometer of the magic horse **** better than Telsa's stock. Up 13.5% in one day to a magical $1.2 trillion market value. It makes me sick. I see fools who will only see the light when they are freezing in the dark. Why are our expenses going up faster than our paycheck? I wonder.

@Keenan - that's funny about the snow on their solar panels. They never thought they would have to get off their ass and do any work to get their free energy. In the winter the amount of electricity coming from the panels is probably not so impressive.
Prof_dilligaf 556 posts, incept 2021-09-02
2022-01-04 08:17:18

"But for those who are, I have seen some who are very pro-hydrogen claim that using hydrogen metal hydrides allows for safe storage and use."

Did you know that there are different "colors" of hydrogen and some of them are considers as "bad" or even "worse" than fossil fuels? Because like the coof and the vex, what they say it's all about is never what it's all about, which is in one way or another to eliminate your ability to resist, like limiting your mobility and access to necessities.

Of course, given a few years of their Net Zero utopia, and we'll be hearing about the new "miracle" of the hydrogenation of coal for the manufacture, and maintenance and replacement of all their "renewable" wunderwaffe.

Tonythetiger 1k posts, incept 2019-01-27
2022-01-04 08:17:28

Tickerguy wrote..
renewables are largely unreliable as well so you must add massive storage costs which makes them even more uneconomic

Don't forget that even if you could run everything on wind and solar, you still need to build and operate backup systems to provide electricity when the renewable sources don't. Since the worst case is having ZERO renewable power (night time with no wind) the backup systems need to be big enough to run everything all the time.

So adopting wind and solar as 'primary' sources of power comes with an added cost of ALSO building a hydrocarbon based system big enough to run everything anyway.

The costs for a truly functional and reliable "renewable power grid" are going to be at least twice the cost of current hydrocarbon based systems, and at least half that capacity will sit there unused most of the time.

On the basis of sunk capital costs alone most renewable energy makes no sense.

PS. For those who haven't seen it before, the development of liquid metal batteries for power storage at scale is making some significant strides. Time will tell if it is capable of making intermittent sources practical or not.

"War is when the Government tells you who the bad guy is. Revolution is when you decide that for yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

You can vote your way into Communism, but you have to
Rangeishot 4k posts, incept 2021-11-18
2022-01-04 08:36:51

Drifter wrote..
Wish we could get some European cars over here. Drove a VW Up, diesel, for two weeks. My god what a fun car and the MPG was insane-- 55mpg.

Friend's daughter drives a 2013ish diesel Chevy Cruze. He spent about $3K to uncork it -- tune, no DPF, no SCR / DEF -- she regularly sees 70+ MPG on her highway commutes. But we're in FL where you can still get away with that. Heck, his Chevy 2500 pickup will manage 50s on the highway. I wish I could get something like that into our Jeeps. It's a shame what the econazis have done to diesel power.

"There are too many agencies with the attitude that the entire federal government is a giant intelligence service, entitled to secret budgets without oversight."
-- Matt Taibbi
Mr_clueless 113 posts, incept 2009-06-04
2022-01-04 10:38:00

@Tickerguy, I remember a post that you wrote about lots of working-age people disappearing, with the only explanation being death.

Is the data from that post consistent with the numbers being reported here?
Mosaik 232 posts, incept 2021-09-10
2022-01-04 10:38:08

"That the eco-weenies aren't serious is reflected in the subsidy of electric transportation . . . instead of a crash program to insulate the living hell out of houses so as to cut energy expenditures. "

Agree totally.
I "attended" via Zoom, purely as an observer, a meeting of our local "100 Renewables by 2030" group. All the talk was of EVs and solar panels. Great for those who can afford them, plus get state subsidies for their vehicular and residential upgrades (of course all taxpayers subsidize these Bright Greens, as the author Derrick Jensen calls them in his book Bright Green Lies).

But my main point: No mention of conservation. No mention of Lovins's "negawatts"---the cheapest, most easily "created" power. Frequent mentions by the "2030" group of "your washer-dryer." Dryers are the biggest waste of energy in the average home. Someone who is serious about the environment would not be prioritizing running a dryer to create a hot wind to dry clothes---when a clean wind is blowing outdoors! Oh, and of course if you have a gas range you must buy a crappy new electric range that is not even any good for cooking on. But, main point again: more total energy and resources used to gear up for all electric. Not to mention the costs of disposing of the old appliances. And on and on . . . These people are the ones pushing offshore wind to run their green dreams, which will industrialize a large portion of our "marine back yard."

Jensen also points out that wind and solar do not "generate" electricity, but "harvest" energy, which itself can affect climate (esp. I believe harvesting the energy from wind). A 2018 article has also raised this point ( But I have not yet gotten to that point in Bright Green Lies to learn about it in detail.
Kgmqt 282 posts, incept 2013-08-19
2022-01-04 10:39:21

A modern gasoline engine is about 35% efficient in terms of taking the BTUs in the gasoline and turning it into movement.

0.6 * 0.95 * 0.75 * 0.9 = 38.5% efficient for the EV assuming the best case

So, for the electric you are figuring from the power plant to the wheels, but for ICE it is only from the fuel tank to the wheels. Do you also need to add in the distribution cost of the fuel from the refinery to the tank to be apples to apples? I know it is small, but should be added as well.

I think too many are getting hung up on the point in time efficiency of the EV. The amount of energy to drive a specific mile compared to ICE is almost always better. But how much energy is required to deliver the car to that starting point, including build, storage, overhead and how much energy is required to dispose of the car once it is complete. Those need to be figured into each mile as well.

The EV craze is very similar to the current pandemic. It really isn't about moving from ICE to EV, it is about pushing the self driving, autonomous, not really yours, car. But they can't sell that part, they need to use the EV part, not all the stuff that removes your control over your ability to travel by car.
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-01-04 10:47:02

@Kgmqt -
So, for the electric you are figuring from the power plant to the wheels, but for ICE it is only from the fuel tank to the wheels. Do you also need to add in the distribution cost of the fuel from the refinery to the tank to be apples to apples? I know it is small, but should be added as well.

I also could count the loss in the EV batteries overnight too (which isn't zero) but its in the same magnitude.

An OTR truck in the US is typically limited to 80,000lbs gross. Gas and diesel have somewhat less mass than water (~6lbs/gal for gas, about 7 for diesel) so the typical maximum load is around 10,000 gallons (you must of course also include in the gross the weight of the cab and empty tanker/trailer.) This is why your typical fuel tank at a gas station is sized at 12k/gal (some are multiples of this, but that's the usual "base"); enough to take a full load with the residual being sufficient so it doesn't run out before the truck gets there.

The average OTR truck gets ~6mpg so even with a 100 mile run from the terminal to the station (which is wildly above average) the loss there is well under 1% and thus can be reasonably ignored, just as you can reasonably ignore self-discharge overnight or over a couple of days in an EV -- even though it DOES happen and DOES count its not enough to change the figures appreciably.

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."
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