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| UK About To Leapfrog US In Energy? in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Macksurf
Posts: 1
Incept: 2011-10-20
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Thorium has always been the safer feul for nuclear power. The ONLY reason it is not used is because weapons-grade fissionable material is harder to retrieve from Thorium than Uranium. Thorium was previously a bit more costly to use but it gets cheaper as more Thorium based reactors are built.
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Drhooves
Posts: 614
Incept: 2008-01-09
Central IL - "the land of crooks and windbags"
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Spell check - Leapfrog in the thread title?
"Nuclear" and "Radioactivity" continue to be boggieman words for the uneducated, similar to the mathematically challenged who think the government deficits don't matter.
The U.S. will be left in the dark unless we copycat the Brits.
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Gen says "it" is coming because:
"Balance sheets have two sides!"......and "You can't count a single dollar twice!"
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Ntb
Posts: 1039
Incept: 2007-10-11
UK - the flat earth middle bit
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I was quite surprised to encounter a Thorium documentary on Radio 4 last week. Looks like there's going to be a push into the mainstream. It's here if iPlayer works in the US: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01....Btw forgive the pedantry but isn't it leapfrog (or is that a US thing?)
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Science is interesting. If you don't agree you can f*ck off.
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Another major advantage for the MSR is that hastelloy doesn't turn combustible as well as react with water to produce hydrogen gas like zirconium does when it gets too hot.
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Asimov
Posts: 104657
Incept: 2007-08-26
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity. If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
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Onelegged
Posts: 271
Incept: 2009-11-13
NW Colorado
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One would think that U.S. business interests would be all ears on this. Like Gen said, being left behind in a technology sector of this type could prove to very costly. I think this could possibly end up being nothing short of a revolution in world energy policy. I am unaware of any other technology that promises this level of energy-density that isn't currently being utilized
I am sure that as soon as the politicos are lobbied sufficiently to provide 100% tax forgiveness and offer to pay for all R&D involved (plus whatever other sweetheart deals) with getting thorium on-line U.S. corporations will board this train. (sarcasm here!)
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The light at the end of this tunnel is a train.
Reason: I added text.
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Marcustullius
Posts: 224
Incept: 2010-06-12
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The country as a going concern can't afford to be left behind. The people can't afford to be left behind. The sphincters running this show can -- or at least they believe they can.
Three guesses how this will sort out...
Tully
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"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." (Samuel Adams)
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Andysvw
Posts: 1877
Incept: 2010-06-26
Tujunga Ca
Online
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The University of Kentucky is building a coal to liquid F/T + biomass research plant 17 million. Free coal too.
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Ghopper
Posts: 2317
Incept: 2011-06-11
Staten Island, NY
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This country makes key decisions based on lobbying cash.
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3611
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
Online
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You bring up a big point Karl and that is what the hell has the leadership of the US been doing the last 40 years? Make that 100 years. It appears to me they have been intentionally bankrupting the USA with the Federal Reserve and all the international banking outfits, Breton Woods and dragging ass in regard to energy. Hard to charge dead men with treason, but either the guys running things now are continuing the trend or if you kick them in the ass, you are sure to hit them in the back of the neck. The big problem is private industry. If this stuff works, why the hell don't they build it? Is government standing in the way?
Also, I have wondered for years if you could make energy out of air, seeing as a hydrocarbon is composed of the elements in the atmosphere.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8266
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
Online
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1248
Incept: 2011-04-14
Online
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We have not had "leadership", all we've had is react to the latest poll and get reelected. Even poor leadership would have formulated a coherent energy policy given a 40 year time-frame. All we've had is a giant circle-jerk of  s. Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Chris92346
Posts: 1316
Incept: 2009-03-25
Banned
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"Fear of Nuclear power"
Okay that is one and a big one. However what would you say are other disadvantages of this technology? Lets play devils advocate.
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Lemonaid
Posts: 9921
Incept: 2008-01-20
Metro Detroit
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TPTB want to arrest population growth.
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"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." Ludwig von Mises
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Larryl
Posts: 50
Incept: 2011-06-26
Pittsburgh, PA
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The U.S. is confronted with a huge infrastructure problem in that the power grids serving the vast majority of the country is operating well beyond design capacity. Which begs the question... does it make sense to heavily increase the load via automobiles?
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Ben
Posts: 6408
Incept: 2009-10-09
The Distant, Glorious, Past
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It's not just Democracies or Republics that have this problem. The UK and India have an energy policy. So does France, Germany and most of Europe. There is something about the US System that gets in the way of big decisions, lately.
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"Why are you going to learn French?" "Because I'm going to France," says Joe. "I'm from the future. You should go to China."
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Otiswild
Posts: 5677
Incept: 2009-03-09
Inside you, the force is!
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I'm thinking it's an uphill battle in the UK, their envirodouchebags are more strident and shrill than those in the US..
China and India? Not so much.
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Burya_rubenstein
Posts: 949
Incept: 2007-08-08
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Swarf_maker
Posts: 124
Incept: 2008-10-18
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Chris92346: Quote: However what would you say are other disadvantages of this technology? Lets play devils advocate. Beyond the fact that they do produce radioactive waste, even if only 1% of that of a PWR, there aren't a lot of disadvantages. First and foremost, there isn't an approved design yet - and that is no small hurdle. Second, LFTR breeds only about 10% in excess of its needs, so you need ten LFTRs of a given size running for a year to produce enough excess U233 to fuel an eleventh. The US has enough U233 to fuel one LFTR but has plans to denature this. LFTR can burn plutonium to start up but that means processing spent fuel from PWRs to extract the plutonium. (Or perhaps you could convince the military to part with some.) You are going to get a lot of resistance to that idea. Similarly, you could build fast breeder reactors to provide fuel to start LFTRs. Again not an easy sell politically. Third, because the U233 produced in LFTR is highly radioactive due to contamination with a small percentage of short half-life U232, it is not particularly good for making bombs. That said, it CAN be used to make bombs, particularly if you don't care about the welfare of the people you have handling it. Wind, solar and biofuels simply won't come close to meeting the demand for energy. Oil, Coal, and natural gas WILL run out. Demand for oil will soon exceed our ability to produce it, then it will start to get really expensive. This will feed into the general economy and you will see some huge price increases in food. (Waste?) Heat from LFTR could be used to power liquid fuel production for transportation and agriculture via the Fischer-Tropsch process. But note that F-T is by no means carbon neutral. Right now we have a problem. If we don't start working toward a solution very soon it could grow into a predicament - with no practical solution.
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"Eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty." Andrew Jackson
Reason: Added: (Or perhaps...)
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Swarf_maker wrote..Similarly, you could build fast breeder reactors to provide fuel to start LFTRs There's no need to do that. LFTR can also use the exact same uranium that is currently going into conventional reactors. You'd only need enough fuel to run it for the first year because after that it would be self-sustaining with regards to U233 bred from thorium.
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Ghopper
Posts: 2317
Incept: 2011-06-11
Staten Island, NY
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Quote:"The U.S. is confronted with a huge infrastructure problem in that the power grids serving the vast majority of the country is operating well beyond design capacity." Well luckily a large portion of the 2009 Stimulus was going for just that purpose. What do you think? They blew it all on State bailouts? Ha! /sarcasm off
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Ben
Posts: 6408
Incept: 2009-10-09
The Distant, Glorious, Past
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"Second, LFTR breeds only about 10% in excess of its needs, so you need ten LFTRs of a given size running for a year to produce enough excess U233 to fuel an eleventh. "
This is an advantage.
Year 1: 100 reactors spawn 110 Year 30: 1745 reactors
Energy problem: Over
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"Why are you going to learn French?" "Because I'm going to France," says Joe. "I'm from the future. You should go to China."
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Ribbit
Posts: 1792
Incept: 2007-09-10
Wales, UK
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Otiswild: "I'm thinking it's an uphill battle in the UK, their envirodouchebags are more strident and shrill than those in the US."
Since before Climategate I've been having run ins with the very worst of these envirodouchebags, and promoting LFTR like mad.
Particularly small sized LFTR that can fit into a footprint the size of a 40ft container. This would allow production line manufacturing of them, and diversification of generating capacity - have an infrastructure that ties into the National grid, so that units can be plugged in on small sites where the power is actually needed, which would eliminate transmission losses.
Alongside them, mains water supply connections could be installed in many convenient places (especially perhaps near the coast), so that water desalination can play as important a role as liquid fuel creation.
Plus that source of high grade heat (cheap high grade heat at that), has all manner of other potential industrial uses.
When surplus water is available (which will be fairly often during periods of low demand), it can be pumped uphill to the reservoirs and large storage ponds that are near towns and cities.
As an aside, I don't know why Magneto Hydro Dynamic (MHD) generators aren't built into the water mains piping - the water is flowing through them anyway.
High grade heat and clean water, as well as power to drive growing lights and climate control, could have fantastic market garden potential using drip agriculture in greenhouses too. In places like the Sahara, which has vast amounts of water under the sand, LFTR, desalination, and drip agriculture, could provide a large part of Africa with cheap energy, clean drinking water, and plenty of food.
The Nile has 6 harvests a year remember. The Sahara would be at least as good (and could probably feed the World on its own - let alone doing the same in other deserts).
The pressure on population (presently needed, for getting water, fuel, and food, because it all relies on man, woman, and child power), would be very much in the down direction.
I started off getting a very hostile response to LFTR, from people that are more interested in problems and scaremongering (problems and scaremongering are their route to self justification and massive income), than solutions.
They started fading very much into the background when the logic of LFTR started sinking in, even with them, only having a brief flurry of attempted resurgence, after the Japanese Fukushima disaster.
I then spent a lot of time pointing out that LFTR would be perfectly safe to build even in places like Fukushima.
Somewhere else where LFTR makes a huge amount of sense, and where it would have a massive effect on the demand for liquid fuels, would be as ship propulsion units. If all container and merchant ships were converted to LFTR propulsion systems, just think how much fuel that would save (shipping consumes HUGE amounts of liquid fuels).
If a ship sank with a LFTR propulsion system, so what? It could either be left where it sank, with the ship, to no harmful effect, or, easily salvaged (especially if designed to be easily salvaged).
There's so many upsides with thorium, even a blinkered, agenda driven, agit-prop activist envirodouchebag can see them.
The very worst of them really hate LFTR, because bottom line, they hate and despise humanity, and can't stand the prospect of our species having a bright, cheerful, optimistic future, and will do (and have been doing) everything in their power to return us to the caves, on the way back to the trees.
They don't like admitting that though, and especially in public to themselves. So now, when confronted with LFTR, the almost sensible ones just shut the **** up and go away.
eta: some of the very worst, have been coming back onto blogs, and asking for more info on LFTR. There's a seed change happening.
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If the State was a Nanny, it would have been fired for incompetence, unreliability, and having its hands in the till, a very long time ago now.
Reason: typos
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Ntb
Posts: 1039
Incept: 2007-10-11
UK - the flat earth middle bit
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Quote:As an aside, I don't know why Magneto Hydro Dynamic (MHD) generators aren't built into the water mains piping - the water is flowing through them anyway. Most of our grid is pumped - it would be a net energy loss. If there are any gravity fed systems, you need a bigger pipe to accommodate the reduced flow from the drag created.
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Science is interesting. If you don't agree you can f*ck off.
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