It is a complete turnoff medic to have to listen to all that preaching in politics. Who cares about peoples religious views. I don't know what they were thinking bringing all the religious talk to the rally. I am so glad I didn't go to this one. I think most of us who have supported the Republican party over the last 10-20 years have showed a lot of patience with the religious wing of the party because we have things in common but the tea party I thought was about fraud and the rule of law. Wake me up when people start demanding jail for the fraudsters. Until then, I no longer let it get me down. I have no control over the rule of law in our country so I focus on the small groups around me and taking care of my family the best I can. We will vote absentee ballot this year so we can really research the candidates and a candidates religious views or affiliated party will have no impact on who we vote for in the election. We consider ourselves independent voters from here on out.

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Starve the beast... any beast!! We can vote with our wallets every day.

It is really a shame that the Tea Party movement lost it's course and has become another right wing racist group, at least that's how it appears to me.

"racist"?? Oh come on.

It is really a shame that the Tea Party movement lost it's course and has become another right wing racist group, at least that's how it appears to me.
===============
that is nonsense even bringing up racism

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Starve the beast... any beast!! We can vote with our wallets every day.

JV, I would agree that it would be a turn off if Glenn did share his religious views, but he didn't. Don't get me wrong. I get what you are saying. Saying that you have faith in something bigger than Obama or Bush or whoever you think runs the government or that the country is in a dark period is not a religious view. At least to me. But I think that comes back to my point. Would you really vote for more of the same and allow those that committed fraud to be re-elected because the person you were going to vote has faith? Christian, Jew, Baptist, Catholic, I don't care.

I think that leaders who have faith and will do what is right have a lot more appeal to the public than we think.

Maybe I am not articulating this correctly. Simply put. I am NOT going to NOT vote for someone because they have faith. There are leaders with faith in all parties. I am going to vote for people that can right this nation.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

Quote:

It is really a shame that the Tea Party movement lost it's course and has become another right wing racist group, at least that's how it appears to me.

There are a few among us. I rest my case.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

Wb6yyz, please provide examples to back up your use of "racist".

don't feed the trolls

That term is a special pet peeve o mine ;)

Quote:

While the two groups are pointing and shouting the powers that be are robbing us blind.

Hear, hear! I've posted just about the same thing in the past.

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The man who wouldn't die.

Republicans want a small government. Small enough to fit in the bedroom. - C. Crumling

Just read the Free Republic comments on KD's piece.

They really don't like anybody who isn't 100% on-board with the ENTIRE religious conservative platform. One wonders who they actually like. A poster was called a troll simply because she stated that strategy counts in elections and focusing on the fiscal issues was the best strategy to win. At least there's an actual discussion going on here.

Also, according to a lot of posters TF is a bunch of liberals who only care about money, apparently .

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'The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.' -Winston Churchill

".gov - One huge-ass game of good cop, bad cop." - Harr

Quote:

don't feed the trolls

Exactly. Wb6yyz demonstrated how easy it is to derail the message. Just throw in some "charge", i.e. racism, and you instinctively start to defend and it takes you off message. You see this in troll threads all the time. The difference now is that the trolls are the D's and R's.

heh.

Mr. Denninger is correct, you lose playing that game.

The TEA Party (or rather, their Repub pol supporters) blew it very early on. Unfortunately.

The message of Fiscal Responsibilty and prosecuting the fraudsters would have appealed to *many* Americans of every political stripe.

My first realization that this would not go well was when Mike Pence went out to greet a group of the earliest TEAs who'd gone to the Capitol. He greeted them with something like "How wonderful to see so many *Conservatives* gathered in one place!"

Was Pence soooo politically unaware that he didn't realize that to most Democratic Voters, and MANY Independents, the word "Conservative" has NOTHING to do with Fiscal Conservatism or small government?

Did he not know that, even for an Ex-dem or a wavering Dem, the word Conservative means basically: RW Nutcase, or , as Obama himself said during the Primaries "Bitter people who cling to their guns and Bibles"?

Pence saying that to the group was a guarantee that most of the Dems present that day just turned around and LEFT.

It doesn't matter whether or not the definition of Conservative is actually what these Dems and Independents believe it is. What matters is that they really believe that. For Pence to make such a guffaw was a crying shame.

Of course, it went downhill from there in many areas. What could have been a widespread movement is becoming marginalized with too many references to all things Republican.

I get that there is no way that the Left will EVER get us back to Fiscal Responsiblty.

I also get that, even tho they've been blowing it left and right , the Repubs or some offshoot of the Repubs is the only hope we've got.

And, unlike many (former ) Dems, I know that the "scary, hate mongering nutty Xtian" meme is just a load of crap to garner votes. Fear mongering at it's finest.

But good luck finding a whole lot of Dems or ex- Dems like me out there who believe that Big Gov. is a LOT scarier than True Believer Xtians.

I had a survey call regarding our Dem Rep. a month or so back. When they realized that I was voting for the Repub, they started in with all the "he wants to get rid of abortion, etc." All the normal scare tactics. They played every Dem scare tactic in the book and after every single one I said I didn't care.

But just because they can't scare me anymore doesn't mean they aren't still scaring a lot of people with this stuff.

So yeah, The TEAs and the Repubs are blowing it with many many people by going off on this tack. For sure.

Quote:

I am frustrated that we seem to be over looking what needs to be fixed because it appears that there is a group of people pointing and shouting that we can't have religion. Ok, that's fine with me. But do not vote for what is right because the person that can right something has faith and you don't.

I think you're confusing the issue a little bit here! I basically agree with ^ this previous statement of yours. However, in the context of this discussion, you are basically making the "victim of [religious] persecution" defense without necessarily acknowledging the fact that religion was pulled onto the national stage to use as a TOOL by the very same group of people. ("You can't have it both ways") Also, we aren't talking about making a rational case to a group of free-thinking individuals who can take the time to logically separate the emotional rhetoric and political BS from reality. We are talking about advancing the ideas of economic freedom and personal responsibility (ie. what MUST be done), TO THE MASSES. In order to do that, the message must be able to reach (logically and emotionally) THE WIDEST AUDIENCE POSSIBLE.

Religion and Faith ARE moot points in politics and policy,IF AND ONLY IF we refuse to legislate based on them. As soon as we have politicians that promise to legislate based on specific religious beliefs, it's kind of ridiculous to cry foul when people make objections based on it. You can't use it as a weapon AND a shield!

In the end, it boils down to the fact that 'faith' based politics & public policy fails for THE SAME REASONS that 'liberal'/'socialist' ones do; they are based on completely NORMATIVE premises! Both, if taken to their logical conclusions here-and-now in the real world with real and diverse human beings, would result in some form of mob-rule where the rights of the few would be sacrificed at the altar of the "common good". Now I realize that that probably sounds very "Libertarian" to some social conservatives. But isn't that one of the main reasons for the founding of this country? To protect those who were marginalized by tyrannical oppression?

Karls point has been proved in these pages.

Christianity is a wedge issue; Jesus made claims about himself that force people to take sides. Those who believe his claims should not be surprised at others who have outright hatred for them as the claims of Jesus got him killed.

I dont have a problem with someone who calls himself an agnostic or atheist, and what they do in their bedroom is their business. For many calling themselves evolutionists/atheist it goes deeper than just personal libertarian decisions for them selves.

Part of progressive evolution is a belief that some people are more evolved and enlighten than others, they think of themselves as superior (kind of self-righteous attitude). The Christian believes just the opposite; we have no righteousness, which is why we need God. The Beck event was not about self righteous superiority of knowing right and wrong, but calling people to do the honorable thing and asking God to help them act to do so. I admit to being amazed that a non-tea party event created such uproar.

Look at how some here have judged the Beck event, the name calling used such as sheep, mindless gnats, mocking the beliefs of those that attended. There seems to be a superior (almost god-like) contemptuous attitude towards Christians and it has been on blatant display through these pages. My concern is that those who hold these beliefs may believe themselves evolved to the point that they may decide that we gnats shouldnt exist. Not a fear tactic, a rather obvious extrapolation. After all, our right to life comes from the government not from God, right?

I agree with Karl that the tea parties should not be a religious event or focus on these wedge issues. However, there are some disturbing signs on this site that no matter what we resolve on the economic corruption, there are bad times ahead for those who claim Christianity.

Ark wrote..

Was Pence soooo politically unaware that he didn't realize that to most Democratic Voters, and MANY Independents, the word "Conservative" has NOTHING to do with Fiscal Conservatism or small government?
...
And, unlike many (former ) Dems, I know that the "scary, hate mongering nutty Xtian" meme is just a load of crap to garner votes. Fear mongering at it's finest.

But good luck finding a whole lot of Dems or ex- Dems like me out there who believe that Big Gov. is a LOT scarier than True Believer Xtians.

Your ENTIRE post is right on the money!

I'd like to extend your point about "Xians"; The reality is that the Dems/Progs/Liberals (whatever your label) are basically just as much "Xians" themselves! They just foster a belief that the state/majority knows "what's best for you". Rather than [insert deity].

Once you take out the emotionally charged language it's obvious that both are just thinly veiled excuses for centralizing control and wielding power.

Quote:

However, there are some disturbing signs on this site that no matter what we resolve on the economic corruption, there are bad times ahead for those who claim Christianity.

As long as the christians keep out of politics they will be just fine.

Ae, you realize you are talking about the majority of the country right? Am I to assume that you believe only Atheists, Jews, and Muslims should be in politics?

We also should not forget that regardless of whoever gets control of the house, we are still screwed financially. The real question is should we take the pain now or make the kids do it.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

How'd that work for Ross Perot?

Medicdan, the vast majority of the country has actually turned away from religion, most believe in evolution now. Check the polls.

Religion has no business inserting itself in politics, NONE!

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Look at Ireland. There was plenty of terrorism over there ALL IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

Really? It has nothing to do with an English presence in Ireland and the longstanding problems with that political situation?

Oh, yes...I forgot my public school indoctrination. The IRA is trying to extend the Pope's authority through bombs, but are too stupid to take that fight beyond the English controlled part of Ireland. Also, the entire UK foreign policy regarding Ireland is nothing more than making sure those Mics worship in an Anglican fashion.

You people are so conditioned in the concept of moral equivalency that our betters in the Left rammed into your heads regarding the Cold War, you must see Christianity as the same as the Shiite/Sunni squabbles in Islam.

When I was being indoctrinated in this subject at my U, I asked the prof about the political discord in Northern Ireland and if that could be the nexus of the problem. He emphatically said it was purely a religious issue.

Retard.

People are fighting over eating fish on Friday...right....

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-The facts do not care about your narrative. The "GREAT NOTICING" continues apace.

@AE You are wrong and I think at this point just trolling. Maybe your math skills are lacking. Most Americans have some type of faith. Nice try though.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

Ae wrote..

As long as the christians keep out of politics they will be just fine....Religion has no business inserting itself in politics, NONE!

So, Christians don't have a right to redress of grievances? How about other rights?

Should they be able to speak their minds on their own dime? Nope. Might offend someone at a TP rally.

How about owning guns? They might kill in the name of Jesus, so take their guns for the better good.

Search/seizure?
Unusual punishment?
Voting?

Tell me, what rights will you enlightened folks vouchsafe those "Bible thumping troglodytes" in the name of sound politics?

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-The facts do not care about your narrative. The "GREAT NOTICING" continues apace.

Quote:

There seems to be a superior (almost god-like) contemptuous attitude towards Christians and it has been on blatant display through these pages. My concern is that those who hold these beliefs may believe themselves evolved to the point that they may decide that we gnats shouldnt exist. Not a fear tactic, a rather obvious extrapolation.

Really? Let's be fair here. If you want to play the victim card, PLEASE provide some quotes that show us how you arrived at this conclusion. (That these people have such hatred that they might kill you if given the power!) Just for the sake of intellectual honesty....I mean, don't you realize that the non-religious USE THE SAME ARGUMENT! That is, I'm right, they're wrong. I'm sooooo right and they're soooo wrong that if THEY get power they'll want me dead! That whole outlook is a complete dead-end...a NON STARTER. Evoking it FROM EITHER SIDE is just as counterproductive and divisive. The truth is, being that we are all still alive NOBODY HAS BEEN PROVEN RIGHT OR WRONG in the religion debate.

Please take a look at what you are claiming: one-sided and unfair "hatred" and self-superiority. Don't fool yourself...the other side feels the same way about many of you! (BTW, not taking sides just calling a spade a spade)

Quote:

For many calling themselves evolutionists/atheist it goes deeper than just personal libertarian decisions for them selves.

Here is another subtle confirmation of the theme playing out here and the self-dillusioning power of "charged labels". Here you are basically equating belief in evolution with atheism! In that case, how detailed shall we start drawing these lines? Should conservatism about a SPECIFIC version or interpretation of the Bible? I mean, I was taught about evolution and the big bang in Catholic School. So, in your mind then is it justifiable to lump anyone who doesn't believe the creation story in it's LITERAL FORM in with the rest of the "godless heathens"?

Interesting how most here that have shown they have some kind of faith have all agreed that politics should not be about or run as a religion. Yet those with NO faith just can't stop harping on the fact that Christians should be no where near a government. Sure makes one wonder. ie; AE.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/