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2023-11-16 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in Health Reform , 373 references Ignore this thread
How To Get Both Broke AND Dead
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Here we go again....

PHILADELPHIA, Nov 11 (Reuters) - Novo Nordisk (NOVOb.CO) on Saturday said the heart protective benefits of its wildly popular Wegovy obesity treatment are due to more than weight loss alone, according to new data presented at a major medical meeting on Saturday.

Early data from the Danish drugmaker's Select trial released in August demonstrated that Wegovy, which has been shown to help patients lose an average of 15% of their weight, also reduced incidence of heart attack, stroke or death from heart disease by 20%.

Uh huh.

The FDA approved this stuff for Type II diabetes in 2017.  It is now five years later, more or less.  The 2mg (higher) dose was approved less than two years ago.

There is no long-term data on these drugs because nobody has a time machine.  The mechanism of action is known but we have very poor fully-systemic understandings of the human body and in particular the endocrine system.  We like to claim otherwise but that's a lie.

The drug has a known adverse impact on the pancreas and there is some evidence it can damage or destroy the kidneys over time.  Destruction of either the pancreas of kidneys will kill you, and before you die you will be severely and permanently injured -- all at great medical expense, of course.

In addition to this there is some evidence the drug has a risk of causing heart attacks and strokes, so how is it that it is now claimed "protective"?  Can both be true?  Sure; one can be true over the short term and the other when used for increasing lengths of time.

Of course the problem with the "short term" benefit is just that; it doesn't last and to keep it you have to keep using it and take the longer terms risks.  How does that balance out?  I don't know, but from what I can see not only does nobody know nobody wants to know.

Here's what I do know, because its irrefutable fact: The increase in metabolic syndrome, Type II diabetes and its complications, all of which are very bad, very expensive, ruin your quality of life and may eventually kill you are environmental and thus are absolutely subject to your control.  They have to be because genetic differences don't occur over this sort of a timeline -- ever.  Therefore it is being caused by one or more things that have changed in what people do.  The strongest correlation lies with the ridiculously-increased level of consumption of both fast carbohydrates and vegetable oils of all sorts, none of which were in common use even 50 years ago and 100 years ago for all intents and purposes did not exist outside of those who were extraordinarily wealthy.

Nobody consumed a thousand kcal of sugar a day unless you were a King (who were notoriously fat -- go figure) because nobody else could afford to do that.  In addition animal husbandry for recorded time has intentionally fed grains to animals of all sorts for the explicit purpose of fattening them up, which it very-reliably does irrespective of their species.  Indeed but for such forced-feeding fois gras would not exist!

I foolishly watched a college football game the other day on network television.  Virtually all the ads were for pharmaceuticals and all of them featured glowing, beautiful scenery and imagery.  Nowhere was the dude who took whatever and then had a heart attack shown with the Paramedic on top of him pounding away on his chest!  The industry calls them "side effects" as if they're neutral (side, not forward or reverse) when in fact they're all ADVERSE effects, that is, things you don't want to happen.

Is there a place for possibly quite-dangerous drugs in medicine?  Sure.  Steroids, for example, are extraordinarily nasty drugs with a whole list of really ugly adverse effects that can screw you blind.  But in certain circumstances they can also save your life.  The same is true for many antibiotics; some (absent allergic sensitivity) are pretty benign but not all; fluoroquinolones, for example (all the ones ending in "-floxacin") have a very significant risk of causing tendon ruptures.  These can be long-term or even permanently damaging; the Achilles, for example, is a rupture that can result in permanent compromise particularly when it comes to any sort of athletic activity and the injury can come months after you stop using the drug, suggesting that the damage, once incurred, may be permanent.

Nonetheless if you have a bacterial infection these drugs treat and don't use them the bacterial infection may kill you.  Is it thus worth it?  Well, dead is worse than compromised athletic activity, right?  Oh by the way Zpak and cephalosporins have also shown up as associated with this risk, although the strength of that risk is less-qualified.  Note that there is now a black box warning on these antibiotics -- which did not come until 2016 although that class of drug was put on the market 20 years earlier!

Simply put until time passes you can't possibly know what the long-term impact is since nobody has a time machine and yet everyone rushes to the new shiny thing as soon as someone pops up with it in the medical field.  This frequently leads to a trail of dead and permanently-damaged people.

Don't be the lab rat folks.  In 20 years perhaps these drugs will prove to be as good as they first appear.  Maybe.

But this much I can tell you for certain: Getting the vegetable oils, which never existed in nature in any material consumable quantity, along with the fast carbs out of the group of things that go down your pie hole will not hurt you as none of them contain anything essential to human life and nutrition.  Further, we know fast carbs have an intended and expected effect of making you fat because we have used carbohydrates this way all the back to biblical times (e.g. "the fatted calf") for the explicit purpose of making animals fat.

Want to change the world?  Make it unlawful for a restaurant or other facility that serves food to the public (including schools) to use vegetable or plant-derived oils without a "black box" warning on the menu and/or prior to taking one's order and specific identification of each and every such oil used and ban them entirely where minors are served.

Oh, and while you're at it?

Tell me again why every so-called "public health" official, never mind hospital administrators, physicians and nurses, isn't swinging from the gallows.  Here's a 58.8% effective method of reducing your risk of winding up in the hospital or worse from Covid and it has a zero risk associated with it.  Yes, you read that right, zero.  Yet the authors call this "small potential benefit" -- yes, a 6 in 10 reduction in going to the hospital (which of course precedes you going to the morgue) is now classified as "small" so the fear is maintained and you'll take a shot.

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Comments on How To Get Both Broke AND Dead
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Rollformer 3k posts, incept 2013-02-13
2023-11-16 08:13:55

I have been learning to cook. My mother refuses to cook appetizing food, so I am picking it up for myself. The bias against animal fats on the internet is astounding. Such is the effectiveness the propaganda against fat has been. Thinking of buying a tub of lard for my sauting and meat-browning needs.
Invisiblesun 853 posts, incept 2020-04-08
2023-11-16 08:46:15

Virtually all the ads were for pharmaceuticals

I see the same thing. Pharma ads dominate, followed by the usual truck commercials and then select beer / alcohol and Walmart ads.

Watched the 1993 movie "The Fugitive" the other day and I marveled at how thirty years ago it was culturally acceptable to tag pharma as evil. In the name of pharma profits a defective drug was marketed and then the doctor hoping to keep those profits conspires to kill any who threaten the money train.

The story is the same today. But now we are supposed to love Pharma destroying our health. Now everyone is in on the scam. Pharma has captured the political, legal, media and educational industries. America is a "Pharma town".

This could not happen without Americans loving their drugs. Pharma won its propaganda battle because it convinced a critical mass of people they needed pills and shots. The drug dealer succeeded in getting people hooked and dependent on more drugs. Only a new generation of Americans will break the addiction.

Or death. That also stops addiction.
Theswiss 4 posts, incept 2023-05-12
2023-11-16 08:46:48

I learned to cook at home, both my father and mother cooked, fish, meat, vegetables, and when we were old enough, a small glass of wine from time to time (no, I didn't become an alcoholic, but a glass, or two goes well with good food, most of the time I just drink water, on rare occasions a good single malt). Since the 'vid, have greatly reduced going out for diner (masks, QR codes...), even on holidays, we prefer to rent a small apartment with a kitchen, and just go out once or twice during the week. At least we know what we eat when we cook ourselves.
I am not into so called "organic" food, especially if the argument is: "it's better for the planet", for me it's just a marketing gimmick.
On the beef side, is there actually a health benefit in grass fed/finished vs grain fed?
Tickerguy 200k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-11-16 08:47:16

@Theswiss nope.

"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Misemeout 52 posts, incept 2021-09-12
2023-11-16 08:48:38

I've been using a tub of beef tallow. It certainly makes things taste better. I've also been in the habit of gargling saline when I'm sick, because I felt like it helped. It's nice to have some vindication.
Mjeff87 3k posts, incept 2021-11-22
2023-11-16 09:24:51

Just like both of my grandmothers, and their mothers, I keep a jar of bacon grease on the counter. It's liquid gold. Also a room temp stick of butter right next to it in a covered butter dish. I trust a cow more than a scientist. My wife is a registered dietitian....and she eats more of both than she knows she does.

Si Vis Pacem, para Bellum

You'll get less than you desire, but more than you deserve
Ndp 187 posts, incept 2021-04-21
2023-11-16 09:48:31

Just finished up a couple slices of bacon and two eggs fried in the fat. The benefits of working from home today. Despite this unhealthy diet that's deficient in essential carbohydrates and beneficial plant oils, I have low blood pressure, low resting heart rate, and weigh 165 at 5' 11". Go figure.

Funny how fungible words like benefit, large, small, safe, effective, rare, and uncommon can be when "science" is involved. In my training as a statistician, I was always taught to use very precise language and to clearly define terms and parameters if there was any possibility of misinterpretation. I guess times have changed.

For example, the degree of efectiveness and benefit appear to operate on a sliding scale. Expensive, on patent treatments are super duper double plus effective if they show even the slightest hint of benefit (or just manage to not kill you outright within a narrowly defined window). On the other hand,cheap and easily obtained interventions are only mildly beneficial and likely quite dangerous even if they produce miraculous results.
Andrew 284 posts, incept 2014-09-24
2023-11-16 10:06:45

"so this new drug has maybe off label benefits but its new and untested and untried so side effects're going to let us know one way or the other as test subjects".

Seems this is the new model of things, let the end user do the final "trouble shooting" as it were.
Printlife 310 posts, incept 2018-05-22
2023-11-16 11:04:45

The long term healthy things don't cost anything, but, don't make anybody any money. Optimize sleep, a cool, dark, silent room. Improves sugar metabolism, and brain health. Avoid carbohydrates, improves lipid profile, possibly avoids atherosclerosis. Can we dig up Ancel Keys' corpse* and skull fuck the bastard? Exercise, keep moving or you will die.

On a lighter note, I have found that a covered butter dish keeps the room temperature butter from going rancid. The clear plastic top version works great, the ceramic version with a bamboo lid always tilted up, drove me crazy.

*Source of the 7 countries study that provided the clear correlation between saturated fat consumption and heart attack, EXCEPT, the data was collected on 21 countries but he discarded most to falsify the results. Also associated with the massive study that had the results hidden for 27 years until the researcher's son provided the 9 track tape with the data. Saturated fat is fine, the polyunsaturated fats (seed oils) are the problem.

Vaccination required? Not if we leave.
Now in Florida, heart rate dropping, nicer people
T2 691 posts, incept 2008-11-17
2023-11-16 11:05:54

My sister works in the pharmaceutical industry as a sales rep. Theres a constant push by the companies to come up with new drugs that do the same thing as the older more proven generics since theres no money in generics. These new drugs will need the test of time to find out their true efficacy and safety profiles, it once thats known itll have already become generic and the companies will have moved on to some new variation of the drug where they tweek the molecule this way and that to keep under patent, and the cycle repeats itself.


In California, no one can hear you scream.
Off_grid99 49 posts, incept 2022-02-03
2023-11-16 11:06:15

The Jardiance commercial with the obese fat pig woman dancing makes me want to shoot my tv every time I see it. Sad that we've come to this as a culture.
Ostriches 347 posts, incept 2009-10-28
2023-11-16 11:52:35

Ah yes, the pharma commercials.

My favorites are those with "the gays" slinging Prep and HIV remedies.

Armed now with these remedies many of "the gays" now feel they are 100% protected from getting HIV. So, they, apparently, take these drugs and feel at liberty to then go out and bareback f*ck by as many partners as they can in a single weekend.

I guess it doesn't work for the monkey pox, though...

The wonders of science...
Workerbee23 284 posts, incept 2021-09-15
2023-11-16 11:52:55

@Theswiss - the only difference between the two, for me, is the taste. If you've grown up eating grain finished beef from the grocery store, eating grass fed beef can be quite a surprise. Also, the color of the beef can be very different.
Beef I bought from a local farmer/rancher was much darker in color. Grocery store beef tends to look very pink. This beef was RED. The colors were't even close.
Winder 177 posts, incept 2016-02-15
2023-11-16 12:31:45

Having raised cattle the last 20 years, it is very difficult to get a nice steak from a totally grass finished animal. The fat just isnt there. Fat is flavor. I gave up and just ground them up for burger meat which is fine. Only got the tenderloins and ribeyes out.
Rebbepete 40 posts, incept 2009-03-03
2023-11-16 12:31:54

My wife has high cholesterol and arteriosclerosis. Her weight is low, we eat healthy, just genetically, her liver makes the stuff and diet and exercise don't help.

We already turned down statins, thanks to the bad side effects they had on her.

Now her doctors are pushing Repatha, Praluent, Leqvio or Nexletol. The phrase used is "clinically proven." I guess that's equivalent to "safe and effective."

My momma didn't raise no fool. I looked up the user reviews on the drugs, and, thanks, but no thanks. It looks like (surprise!) the drug companies either did poor clinical studies, or stopped them too soon, since some really nasty side effects occur after a few months of use. Since they're all injections, the side effects last, not hours, not weeks even, but months, years, or permanently.

I used to trust doctors, but Doctor Welby sold his soul to the devil a long time ago.

Although the way up leads through the valley,
It is only through the trials in the valley
That we appreciate the heights
Tickerguy 200k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-11-16 12:33:06

If I hear clinically proven one more time, I may very well shove a shotgun in the mouth of the person who says it and pull.

"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Ckaminski 7k posts, incept 2011-04-08
2023-11-16 12:36:00

Get a metal strainer and ajar.

Pour your bacon fat or beef grease into separate containers after extracting the garbage.

Use judiciously. No need to buy anything.
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-11-16 12:36:42

Ah yes, the pharma commercials.

My favorites are those with "the gays" slinging Prep and HIV remedies.

Shortly before I binned my TV service, I remember the one for one of the compounds that was supposed to prevent HIV transmission. It featured an obvious transgender individual as well as a couple of gay men. So I looked up the statistics. Apparently transgenders (MtF of course) have HIV infection rates comparable to gay men. I also learned that more than half(!) of black MtF transgenders are HIV positive.

Armed now with these remedies many of "the gays" now feel they are 100% protected from getting HIV. So, they, apparently, take these drugs and feel at liberty to then go out and bareback f*ck by as many partners as they can in a single weekend.

They can do that if the want. But consider that all of these drug work by inhibiting RNA synthesis in cells. Lots of bad things happen when you do that since the maintenance of your body requires continual RNA synthesis.

Its all in the mitochondria.

Soylent Green is people!
Aerius 1k posts, incept 2008-03-19
2023-11-16 13:09:30

Heh. "Lab rats". It's funny because that's what one of my friends said when we were at another friend's wedding around 15 years ago and the drinks had been flowing freely.

There were a bunch of folks gathered 'round the bar telling tall tales of sexual escapades and STDs when someone mentioned he was vaccinated for HPV, then everyone started talking about all the vaccines & medications they were on. I was thinking "holy shit, these people are doped to the gills" and that's about when my friend said "damn, what are you guys, a bunch of human guinea pigs?"

That term stuck, and it's now what we call anyone who's dumb enough to take any pharma product that hasn't been out for at least a couple decades. Since the pharma companies barely pretend to test their drugs these days, I ain't touching any of it until long term animal testing has been completed using human guinea pigs.
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-11-16 13:09:45

but Doctor Welby sold his soul to the devil a long time ago.

That's an understatement if I ever heard one.

Its all in the mitochondria.

Soylent Green is people!
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-11-16 13:09:51

This discussion reminds me of a certain CA Assembly member who is gay. Most of you have likely seen him in articles on the 'Net and possibly on the news. He is tall, thin, bespectacled, has dark hair cut short, and looks every bit the gay that he is. He was one of the prominent advocates of the lockdowns and the covid-19 shots. He has also pushed all the legislation in CA mandating the more that 70 vaccines the kids receive these days to attend both public AND private school. He is the same guy who pushed the FDA to drop the ban on gays donating blood and ended the law that required HIV positive people to admit such prior to engaging in sex acts with others. He is also pushing the normalization of sex with minors as well.

One wonders if there are things that should be done to this individual that cannot be mentioned in an online forum such as this.

Its all in the mitochondria.

Soylent Green is people!
Jadedamber 112 posts, incept 2019-07-30
2023-11-16 13:10:22

Beef trimmings are $1.50/lb at my local Safeway. I buy 6 pounds at a time. The butchers look at me like I'm crazy, but one of them uses lard as fish bait. The beef tallow is good for cooking (DUH) and for making soap.
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-11-16 13:10:42

There is a certain concept of sovereign immunity, if that's what its called, that has to be eliminated.

If a company that I own or am an officer of manufactures a product that harms or kills someone, my company can be held liable through the normal process of tort law. I can be held personally responsible if the injury or death was due to criminal or gross negligence on my part. I believe this same principle should be applied to policy makers in any level of any government.

Its all in the mitochondria.

Soylent Green is people!
Ocdawg 527 posts, incept 2019-03-14
2023-11-16 13:10:53

Since my infection 4 months ago and subsequent hip destruction, I could not exercise/barely walk over that time. So to be sure I passed all pre-op, I cleaned up my diet even further. Managed to drop 7 lbs. (even without all the cardio/weights during "normal" days) prior to last week's hip replacement. Was up walking 3 hours after surgery.

My blood is the best in 12 years. A1C is 5.2 and resting pulse is still 68-70 (58 when during my normal spinning). BP is 122/68. Only vices= good tequila and vodka. Added more fish, less red meat, maybe once a month if that.

Statins kill (f-cked up my calves & legs with cramps on top of messing up normal functions) for the 8 weeks I took them. I believe in NONE of the "health solutions" out there. Pharma couldn't give a flying f-ck about your well being.

What ever shit you put in your pie hole... expect shit in your body... and turn to shit you shall...

29 in a row, but the quest for the Three-peat ends...


Reason: spelling
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