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2023-09-18 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in Musings , 253 references Ignore this thread
The Gospel Is Corrupt
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Oh I know, now I did it.

Peter approached Jesus and asked him,
"Lord, if my brother sins against me,
how often must I forgive?
As many as seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.
That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king
who decided to settle accounts with his servants.
When he began the accounting,
a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount.
Since he had no way of paying it back,
his master ordered him to be sold,
along with his wife, his children, and all his property,
in payment of the debt.
At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said,
'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.'
Moved with compassion the master of that servant
let him go and forgave him the loan.
When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants
who owed him a much smaller amount.
He seized him and started to choke him, demanding,
'Pay back what you owe.'
Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him,
'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
But he refused.
Instead, he had the fellow servant put in prison
until he paid back the debt.
Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened,
they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master
and reported the whole affair.
His master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant!
I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to.
Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant,
as I had pity on you?'
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers
until he should pay back the whole debt.
So will my heavenly Father do to you,
unless each of you forgives your brother from your heart."

So let's analyze.

A King had a Treasury (collected via taxes and various fees) which, he on occasion, loaned out with the expectation of being paid back.  This Treasury, being not in circulation, had no economic impact on supply and demand -- and thus on price.

He made such a loan (or, more likely but the Gospel does not say, a series of such loans) but he was imprudent, and in fact the borrower had no capacity to pay.

This loan, being made in the first instance, was highly inflationary; it added to the supply of circulating currency in the realm, which of course shifts the supply and demand curve and thus results in higher prices.

But, if the loan was prudent and could be repaid, when it is paid the curve shifts back in exactly the same amount, so the inflationary impulse is temporary.  This is a question of balance and timing, but not ultimate effect.

That person to whom the King made the loan in turn loaned part of what he was loaned to another, and that second person could not pay either.  The original King, discovering that he had refused to continue to "pay it forward" and leave the inflationary impact in the economy took out his wrath on the original borrower -- despite the alleged original point of the Gospel (and the First Reading, from Sirach, stating that one must not utilize wrath at all!)

Hypocrisy strike #1; apparently the ban on wrath and anger do not apply to persons in political power.

But the much-larger hypocrisy was found in what Jesus allegedly taught regarding said King in that his "forgiveness" of the loan was no such thing at all.  The King, by his actions, forcibly screwed every other person in the kingdom by placing an inflationary impulse into the kingdom's economy in the form of increasing the money supply without any work being done of equivalent value in exchange for it.  Further, as King he can re-tax it to refill his Treasury for which he is not required to do any work and if he does he screws the people not once, but twice!

This, allegedly, "Christ commands."

Well, if he really did and this is not an abomination of Christ's teachings by man, then he in fact commanded you to screw not just your neighbor but, if you're in a position of political power, to screw everyone else for the benefit of the favored few, or the one -- specifically said person in power.

The correct response of the people who are under such a "King" is to decapitate him for the deceptive act of screwing each and every one of them by subterfuge and fiat, a punishment assessed upon them without the precedent of a crime.

Of course were Christ to have taught that -- a King who deliberately tampers with the economy to benefit a favored few who he allegedly claimed were "servants" or "patrons" yet in fact got to cheat in the economy compared to everyone else; they got fabulously rich while everyone else got the scraps, should be dragged out of his castle and decapitated in the middle of the town square -- we won't have all the economic problems we have today..... would we?

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Rickylc 3k posts, incept 2009-02-09
2023-09-18 07:48:27

This should be fun, lol.

We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Invisiblesun 834 posts, incept 2020-04-08
2023-09-18 07:48:34

I lean more towards God being deflationary. When Jesus turned water into wine the supply of wine increased with no input cost other than filling barrels with water. And Jesus fed thousands with a few fishes and loaves of bread. His medical care was also free and superior to that provided by the professional doctors.

The main motive for killing Jesus was he threatened the incomes and profits of the religious leaders. What they demanded to be paid for, Jesus offered without money or price.

Observe, however, that Jesus mostly respected property rights. In the story of the good Samaritan the inn owner was compensated for his service. Also, the persons who increased their talents kept the profits. However, Jesus and his disciples would feed themselves from the fields they did not own.

Cosmicpatriot 36 posts, incept 2021-07-30
2023-09-18 07:49:12

Just curious, why do you assume the loan in this parable (which were always told by Jesus simply to highlight a single point, never to establish a broad pattern for living) was made with fiat currency and not surplus from collection of taxes?
Peterm99 9k posts, incept 2009-03-21
2023-09-18 07:49:25

Excellent ticker!

However, as you are obviously aware, "faith" frequently has little or nothing in common with logic and common-sense.

I expect the inevitable faith-based counter-arguments to the ticker to be quite entertaining.

". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance b
Cmoledor 2k posts, incept 2021-04-13
2023-09-18 07:49:30

Hmmmm. Deeper teachings. Hmmm. Definitely going to contemplate this one.

The whole world is one big fucking scam
Full throttle till the end. Ocdawg
Take the stick you tried to beat me with and go fuck your own face. Ishmael
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-18 07:53:27

@Cosmicpatriot -
Just curious, why do you assume the loan in this parable (which were always told by Jesus simply to highlight a single point, never to establish a broad pattern for living) was made with fiat currency and not surplus from collection of taxes?

I made no such assumption; in fact, I presumed otherwise since at the time in question fiat currencies were not widely in use.

A Treasury full of gold coins (aka what a King is probably sitting on) was collected from alleged "surplus" (maybe yes, maybe he starved his subjects to death in the process; we do not know) but it is not in circulation and, being not in circulation, has no impact on price or the economy as a whole.

When the King PLACES said into circulation he CREATES inflation. Now if he lends it and it is repaid, when it is repaid the inflation is exactly balanced by deflation, and if the rate of interest is correctly (and fairly) calculated so as to match improved productivity (which tends to happen in all economies over time) the net impact, over the entire transaction, is zero.

BUT -- if he places it into circulation and never recovers it then he deliberately screws the people who don't get it; the man who gets it first is enriched, but the price impact on those who do NOT get it is equally-severe, their income does not increase, and THEY get fucked.

"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Don1999 4 posts, incept 2023-09-18
2023-09-18 08:33:58

Good morning. I have always understood this parable to be about forgiveness in general with money only used as an example. The general idea being we have been forgiven by God so much more than we could ever repay we must mirror that type of forgiveness in our fellow man. One caveat is that someone must understand that they need forgiveness. It is hard to forgive someone who does not seem to want it
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-18 08:35:57

@Don1999 the problem is that this set of readings is pointed to as evidence that "wrath" (otherwise known as "you fucked up and now you're going to pay for it!") is not something humans should ever do.

Note: EVER DO.

Except, of course, if you're the government.

Then its perfectly fine, according to Jesus in the Gospel.

Well, in addition said readings make clear that not only does the government have a "right" to use wrath it has a right to fuck people who did nothing wrong in the first place and the people must submit to this injustice.

Uh, no.

Fuck that shit.

"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."

Peterm99 9k posts, incept 2009-03-21
2023-09-18 10:11:11

Definitely not trying to defend the religious beliefs involved, but it appears that there is an economic counter-argument to what you wrote.

Assuming for the purposes of this exercise that the economy is essentially static during this period, when the king initially confiscated his wealth from the people in the form of taxes and stored it in his treasury, he removed the entire amount from circulation, thus creating deflationary effects. Any amount that re-enters into circulation (via loan forgiveness or whatever) does NOT result in increased inflation from the initial state, but merely serves to restore the value of the money towards the pre-taxation/confiscation state. If he returns everything in his treasury back into the economy, that merely results in returning the value of money to exactly the same level it was prior to the taxation taking place.

Of course, the observation that the manner in which the money returns into circulation will benefit some at the expense of others is valid, but that is a different issue.

". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance b
Don1999 4 posts, incept 2023-09-18
2023-09-18 10:11:11

It is hard to reconcile. Yes one small sin(f up) is worthy of condemnation according to the scriptures.God gives the state the power of the sword in our lives,but he tells us that he will ultimately just justly and demands that we trust him. Remember according to him we are created for eternity and this life is a vapour and we should give it in service of him ( Jesus) who gave his life to restore our relationship with the father. That being said we are also required to desire Justice in this life. I have had and continue to have real difficulty threading this path
Cdfrey 2 posts, incept 2023-09-18
2023-09-18 10:11:11

Suppose there was nothing in the treasury to start with. Then suppose 1000 gold coins were collected in tax that year. Would this be deflationary?

Then suppose that same 1000 gold coins were given away for free that same year. Would that be inflationary?

Wouldn't these both cancel each other out?

I don't understand why the source of the treasury's gold can be ignored, regardless of how long it was since it was collected in taxes.
Wis/min 5k posts, incept 2009-08-14
2023-09-18 10:11:11

The point of this parable seems to be about forgiveness in that because we have been forgiven so much we ought to be able to forgive others.

Spitcher2 149 posts, incept 2018-05-17
2023-09-18 10:11:11

Well, at least the scriptures accurately reflect that regulatory capture has always been a problem since the beginning.
Nelstomlinson 961 posts, incept 2011-12-21
2023-09-18 10:11:11

God's wrath is righteous. Ours isn't, because we're sinners.
Nashville 162 posts, incept 2018-02-27
2023-09-18 10:11:11

Very timely as I was just watching Sams DEBT CLOCK ticking toward $32,800,000,000,000. Thats a lot of Sheckles?
Boredfree 1k posts, incept 2021-09-15
2023-09-18 10:11:11

Looking to the bible for financial advice? Start a religion!

When religious types tell us God provides, what is provided?

Why should a person tithe money to a church? Shouldn't God provide for the church, or is it God that provides the suckers, um, parishioners to pay said tithe?

Organized religion is another beaurcracy suppressing and repressing anything challenging it. Even the Gospel.

I gave up on religion in my youth. I found church full of hypocrites and assholes who loved telling others how to live while they lived like sinners. That was 1970's California, which is telling...

Despite lacking a religious organization I feel I've grown more spiritual as I've aged. I see miracles everyday and I'm thankful to be alive. Does there need to be more?

The problem is most people want to point a finger rather than their thumb when dealing with challenges.
Nashville 162 posts, incept 2018-02-27
2023-09-18 10:11:11

The debt clock shown on Fox Bid-ness this morning doesnt match this one which appears to be about $150 Billion higher.

Im going with the higher one. Maybe the difference was just discovered in a shipment to UKR?
Zek157 270 posts, incept 2009-03-05
2023-09-18 10:11:11

Year of jubilee is an interesting concept that forgave loans and restored lands to original family/owners every 50 years (after 7 Jubilee cycles). Biblically speaking the family spendthrift asshole wasnt supposed to be able to screw his family forever through bad decisions. Debt also had a sliding value over the years until it was forgiven. I would think this also would have washed out excess money from they system?
Cdfrey 2 posts, incept 2023-09-18
2023-09-18 10:11:11

tickerguy wrote..
the problem is that this set of readings is pointed to as evidence that "wrath" (otherwise known as "you fucked up and now you're going to pay for it!") is not something humans should ever do.

Note: EVER DO.

Except, of course, if you're the government.

If we put together Matt 5:7, Matt 18:35, James 1:20, James 3:1, and Romans 13:4, I think we can say:

* the merciful, and only the merciful, get mercy
* if you don't need mercy, you can be as wrathful as you want
* if you're in leadership, part of your job is to show no mercy to evildoers
* those in an unjust government are in great danger

Edwardteach 386 posts, incept 2021-05-01
2023-09-18 10:11:11

"United Conference of Catholic Bishops"

Heh, I see the problem...

Confusion can often come from using a crummy translation that tries to be "helpful" by glossing over or outright omitting pertinent details.
But here's a hint: Jesus isn't giving a lesson in economics or fiat currency here, he's talking about SIN, and the reality that none of us can earn forgiveness for sin. Forgiveness is a free (and generous) gift from God. The point of the parable is if God is willing to extend to us such generosity, then we ought to be willing to be similarly merciful and generous to our brothers for the comparatively minor offenses they may commit against us. The wicked slave is this illustration was not, so the master (God) rightly withdrew HIS mercy.

Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin command here.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-18 10:17:50

Ah, except @Edwardteach it was not God who withdrew his mercy, it was a King -- a man.

And not only that, when said man did that he LIED, because forgiveness is not revocable.

Therefore he committed not one but TWO sins, leaving aside screwing the entire realm, the larger of the two being a direct sin against the 10 Commandments (thou Shalt Not lie.)

You can also argue quite-cleanly that he stole the entire lent balance, since he had previously forgiven it -- it was therefore not owed, and he unjustly imprisoned the original person and forced him to pay a sum to which he was not in debt.

All of this was injustice, and all of it committed by government, therefore according to Jesus, it was all ok.

You really believe that?

Then go take six more clotshots, idiot.

PS: Note that I didn't need to go into economics to reach that conclusion; if you do then its even worse, because exactly how is it that a King came upon gold in the first place? HE didn't dig it out of the ground! He either conscripted labor (for his enrichment) or he took it from a conquered people who had previously been conscripted (he stole it.) Unlike fiat currency where he really can create it out of thin air, there is no such thing with pieces of gold or silver.

"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."

Guerin 172 posts, incept 2021-09-26
2023-09-18 10:23:50

The author of Sirach earlier in the same chapter says "I have hated many things, but not like him, and the Lord will hate him." I don't think any fair reading of the Old Testament would suggest justified anger and wrath are out of bounds, no matter what the 60s crowd who arranged these readings would like to convey.

Debt forgiveness is found in multiple places. From the concept of the 50-year Jubilee forgiveness of debts to the Our Father itself (which literally reads "forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others" in the Latin text), to Jesus paying the otherwise unpayable debt of sin.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-18 10:28:44

@Guerin a private date that is forgiven incurs cost on the forgiving party and it has no NET economic impact.

I loan you one million dollars I have previously earned and is my economic surplus. You do not pay it back and I forgive you. You gained one million dollars but I lost one million dollars; the net impact is zero. This is a choice, and a valid one.

However, when the public treasury is implicated one of two things has occurred -- either the held economic surplus by the government (held for emergency purposes, which is legit) has been placed into circulation without emergency AND THEN LEFT THERE when there was no emergency, specifically for the benefit of the person WHO DID NOT HAVE TO PAY IT BACK and by doing so the party who got it both received benefit and in doing so screwed everyone else in that particular realm in an exactly equal amount, or the government directly emitted credit which is not paid back (that is, it had no surplus to draw on) and in doing so directly fucked everyone else out of said value as in the first example for the benefit of the person who didn't pay.

Private debt forgiveness is a net economic zero.
Public debt forgiveness is ALWAYS theft from the many for the benefit of the few, or the one.

The latter deserves summary execution in each and every instance.

"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."

Joeh 21 posts, incept 2023-02-10
2023-09-18 11:26:40

My Priest handled this homily well.
Forgiving isn't forgetting. Forgiving isn't blindly walking into harmful situations. Forgiving is not absolving the offender from justice. The SC church shooting years ago comes to mind. In my area Amish carriages are periodically hit by careless drivers resulting in death is another example. Forgiving is relieving yourself of the overwhelming hate and need for vengeance and leaving it in the Creators hands. I pray I'm not put to that test. There are many folks I don't deal with at all as a result of the shot. I have not forgotten. Have I forgiven? I do not want them around my family with their "how was I to know" or "nobody knows for sure..." or "you just made a lucky guess" BS statements.
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