On Personal Responsibility, Part 4
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2023-09-16 08:44 by Karl Denninger
in Other Voices , 123 references Ignore this thread
On Personal Responsibility, Part 4
[Comments enabled]

Wow -- this new-fangled fishing courtesy of Ishmael is better than new math!  I didn't even have to start the boat this time -- just got in a cracked a beer.  I wonder if the beer is necessary?  Well, if its not that's ok; I'll claim it is because I like drinking 'em.... -- Ed

 

The first parts of this series explored responsibilities we have to ourselves: eliminating toxic people and time management.  But we don’t live in a vacuum. We interact with other people, including those we very much care about. 

How much responsibility do we bear for other adults and what should that look like?  This is something I’ve wrestled with for a long time. Before the knee-jerk reaction of no adult is responsible for anyone else, consider lifeguards. 

An electrician is responsible for properly wiring a circuit for safety.  Part of his job is looking out for others.  Ditto for police, medical staff, and even the illegal preparing your food.  Every time he washes salmonella off his hands he’s fulfilled his obligation. Society continues because Nice Productive People take their responsibilities seriously enough to prevent other Nice Productive People from rioting.

So spare me the histrionics of pretending you live on a remote island completely apart from human contact.  You’re reading this, which means you look to somebody else for your entertainment. And I better not waste your time.  

Clearly we do bear a certain degree of responsibility for others beyond the bare minimum at work. Watching loved ones struggle is particularly hard, and if they’d just listen to advice…Or so we tell ourselves.  Some are primed for guilt, including for things they didn’t directly cause. How many of us tried to convince others not to get the shots or to take Covid prophylactics and failed? Or tried for years to convince people to change?  Would different phrasing have changed their minds?  How much is our fault?  Did we try hard enough?

Similar questions keep me up at night.  

Recent Mass readings touched on this topic (Ezekiel 33:7-9, Romans 13:8-10, and Matthew 18:15-20), so divine intervention changed this guest Ticker’s focus and answered some of those questions.  

The first part of the Ezekiel reading is justification for managing someone’s life because it’s “for their own good.”  We want what is best for our loved ones. However it ends with

But if you warn the wicked,
trying to turn him from his way,
and he refuses to turn from his way,
he shall die for his guilt,
but you shall save yourself.

This states that another’s actions are not ultimately our responsibility.

Romans 13:10 is often quoted by itself.
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Love does no evil to the neighbor;
hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

This is one of my least favorite verses in the Bible because of the way it is twisted.  It is often quoted by itself as justification for unlimited immigration, doing away with the death penalty, or that expecting people to pull their own weight is a sin.  Put it another way, this verse provides camouflage for cowards to hide behind divine word and abscond from their responsibilities. An even worse interpretation implies duties that never existed.  So fuck you if you said this. Your words are partially responsible for a million deaths and counting.

How do we love our neighbor, and what are our responsibilities? It’s right there in the three readings: Warning, then allowing consequences.  Consequences are a natural result of actions, whether they are obvious or not.  Ideally, they are nonfatal.  Sadly, in the Coof Wars they were and are deadly. 

The Gospel reading laid out our responsibility:  warning people three times is enough.  First by ourselves, then with another, and finally with an authority.  If the neighbor hasn’t listened by then, they ain’t gonna.  But you have fulfilled your duties.

We have a duty to warn of consequences, but are not responsible for behavior.  Nor is it possible for us to change his actions.  All such change must come from within.

Allowing consequences to happen means we are under no obligation to shield them. Some people only learn from personal experience.  And sometimes it hurts as much to watch results arrive upon another as suffer them ourselves.  Knowing you tried won’t take away that pain, but these recent Bible readings tell us there’s no reason to feel guilty about another’s choices.

Go to responses (registration required to post)
 

 
Comments on On Personal Responsibility, Part 4
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Cmoledor 2k posts, incept 2021-04-13
2023-09-16 09:19:08

Sometimes people only learn from pain. Words and love arent enough for the stupids. Ill admit Ive been there myself.

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The whole world is one big fucking scam
Full throttle till the end. Ocdawg
Take the stick you tried to beat me with and go fuck your own face. Ishmael
Orangecrush 172 posts, incept 2018-09-29
2023-09-16 09:19:12

So very true. But we live in an emasculated culture that coddles, excuses, and even rewards bad behavior. Thus we have tens of millions of 6 year olds running around in adult bodies who never take personal responsibility. I am sick and tired of my tax money rewarding their bad choices. I completely believe in freedom to live your own life, with the caveat that YOU as an individual should bear the consequences (good or bad) of the choices you make.
Ronniemcghee 495 posts, incept 2012-07-28
2023-09-16 09:54:32

The construct of Responsibility exists only within the nucleus of a Law & Order cell ~
Chemman 415 posts, incept 2021-05-03
2023-09-16 10:19:20

"Ditto for police"

A number of Supreme Court decisions have delineated the responsibility of the Police. There one and only job is to solve crimes. They have no responsibility to step in and protect any individual even when they see the crime in progress.
Nelstomlinson 961 posts, incept 2011-12-21
2023-09-16 10:46:01

Quote:
Put it another way, this verse provides camouflage for cowards to hide behind divine word and abscond from their responsibilities.


The whole of Romans 13 gets used that way, far too often. Too many believe that if the devil gets control of your government, Romans 13 means you get to do whatever the devil says.
Onething@atime 138 posts, incept 2020-04-25
2023-09-16 11:58:52

The copywriter Dan Kennedy wrote somewhere that most adults are running around looking for a place to plug in their umbilical cord.
Evergreen 363 posts, incept 2021-12-26
2023-09-16 11:58:55

Good time to read Bastiat, as he boils it down fully.
Maurevel 1k posts, incept 2009-06-14
2023-09-16 12:59:41

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write this.
Maurevel 1k posts, incept 2009-06-14
2023-09-16 15:45:07

I used this test to gauge when I'd done enough: the relationship got strained.

At that point if I push it further, there is no more relationship nor influence.

If it is strained, there is another shot at influencing using what remains in the future.
Margbp 220 posts, incept 2021-12-02
2023-09-16 15:51:07

And some people have pain over and over and nothing will dissuade them from believing they have no agency.

I don't try to change anyone and fully believe they're responsible for their choices. But I am wistful sometimes knowing how they could change outcomes if they wanted it enough.

It is mind blowing to listen to someone lament their situation and absolutely have no clue as to their part in it. As if these things just drop down out of the sky on them.

People are fat because they value eating junk over health. Their kids hate them because they valued other things besides their kids. They have no money because they valued things & debt.

They make choices on what they value.

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It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his desires depend upon his not understanding it.
~Upton Sinclair slightly paraphrased

Reason: Added word -- junk and corrected spelling
Tritumi 2k posts, incept 2008-11-29
2023-09-16 19:49:58

On my third try, I ended by advising that I am out of the Jeremiah business.

Otherwise, it appears the person least likely to renew relationship is the person to whom I wrote "I forgive you."

Clearly, that if you want to melt down a liberal's mental state, forgive them.

They will never forgive you for that.
Raven 15k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-09-16 21:39:54

Nicely written and well said, compliments.

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Mission Complete

The truth is just too powerful to know. Those who hold the truth suffer more than those who believe the lie. -The Hall of Tears
Ronniemcghee 495 posts, incept 2012-07-28
2023-09-17 10:50:45

Yahweh didn't leave personal responsibilities to your own devices.
He taught you exactly what they were throughout the old testament.
Or did I miss something?

Raven 15k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-09-17 13:31:38

Yahweh also did not micromanage everything. Lots was left to human morality and common sense upon a foundation of the supernatural guidance.

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Mission Complete

The truth is just too powerful to know. Those who hold the truth suffer more than those who believe the lie. -The Hall of Tears
Ronniemcghee 495 posts, incept 2012-07-28
2023-09-18 07:58:32

@Raven ~

Left to human morality.

===

For example?

===

I guess it depends upon the definition of micromanage. I'm sure he had his reasons. Leviticus as a very, very, very, small sampling:

16 The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached the Lord. 2 The Lord said to Moses: Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

3 This is how Aaron is to enter the Most Holy Place: He must first bring a young bull for a sin offering[a] and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 He is to put on the sacred linen tunic, with linen undergarments next to his body; he is to tie the linen sash around him and put on the linen turban. These are sacred garments; so he must bathe himself with water before he puts them on. 5 From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

6 Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household. 7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goatsone lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

11 Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. 12 He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense and take them behind the curtain. 13 He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover above the tablets of the covenant law, so that he will not die. 14 He is to take some of the bulls blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.

15 He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bulls blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.

18 Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He shall take some of the bulls blood and some of the goats blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19 He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

20 When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelitesall their sinsand put them on the goats head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.

23 Then Aaron is to go into the tent of meeting and take off the linen garments he put on before he entered the Most Holy Place, and he is to leave them there. 24 He shall bathe himself with water in the sanctuary area and put on his regular garments. Then he shall come out and sacrifice the burnt offering for himself and the burnt offering for the people, to make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 He shall also burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26 The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and intestines are to be burned up. 28 The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.

29 This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves[c] and not do any workwhether native-born or a foreigner residing among you 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. 31 It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. 32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments 33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community.

34 This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.

And it was done, as the Lord commanded Moses.
Doladin 150 posts, incept 2022-01-15
2023-09-18 08:06:31

1. Libertarians need to admit that their ideology has failed. It was built on the premise of there being a lot of real estate between them and others that fundamentally shared the same values, and would not encroach upon the other.
2. Our society is fickle and built for high trust only, and the American constitution, John Adams said, Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people"
3. CS Lewis in Mere Christianity did an excellent analysis of Love Thy Neighbour (which our enemies like to use against us! Rules for Radicals). CS Lewis says that loving your neighbour means to held your neighbour ACCOUNTABLE TO YOUR OWN STANDARDS. If you are being debaucherous, do not judge your neighbour for his debauchery. However, if you are law abiding and pious, and your neighbour is being a degenerate usurist, absolutely have at him.
4. It's sad that our good samaritan nature is disappearing, because so many people are so lost that you are dragged into their disputes/fights and face negative repercussions if you intervene. They don't want your help. Or, they don't want your advice, because they would have to look into the mirror and make changes.
Even if you do rescue someone, how often does the aggressor run to court and extract wealth from you? The State has been very happy to facilitate this.

There are forces working against us and our society, attacking all of my above points. Don't forget, they hate you and want you demoralised and dead.
Orangecrush 172 posts, incept 2018-09-29
2023-09-18 08:38:53

@Doladin
Quote:
4. It's sad that our good samaritan nature is disappearing, because so many people are so lost that you are dragged into their disputes/fights and face negative repercussions if you intervene. They don't want your help. Or, they don't want your advice, because they would have to look into the mirror and make changes.

Yep, and I believe that it is happening just as Christ prophesied:

And because lawlessness is increased, most peoples love will grow cold. Matthew 24:12
Kennington 407 posts, incept 2013-09-12
2023-09-18 14:42:30

I'm not Catholic so I don't feel the need to have the discussion along those lines...That said, when I read Matthew 18 I dont interpret it quite that way, namely, a King that had a treasury that he loaded out to individual servants. v.23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

"A King had a Treasury (collected via taxes and various fees) which, he on occasion, loaned out with the expectation of being paid back. This Treasury, being not in circulation, had no economic impact on supply and demand -- and thus on price."

Due to the large amounts of money involved, its likely that these servants would have been provincial governors, certainly not bondservants but probably the governors of his provinces or those in charge of the revenue and finances who owed the money from taxation.

That being the case, wouldn't the monies previously referenced already have been in circulation and while owed to the King not impacted the supply/demand equation?



Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-18 14:43:04

No @Kennington (you're in the wrong thread by the way); funds in Treasury beyond operating requirements are there for emergencies (e.g. someone invades you!)

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Kennington 407 posts, incept 2013-09-12
2023-09-18 15:21:49

Sorry Karl...I am on the wrong thread, I'll repost accordingly as well as add your response..
Ronniemcghee 495 posts, incept 2012-07-28
2023-09-19 11:37:07

@Raven ~

BTW, I appreciated your reply.

===

.. upon a foundation of the supernatural guidance

==

Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

===

There is nothing spiritual/supernatural about what Yahweh is talking about. His image will appear in a cover over the ark. He is describing science. Look at some of the new images from the James Webb telescope. Would the intelligent designer of the cosmos be talking to some guy on our little rock about putting blood on the horns of a bull? I have to confess that I have to try very hard to not let the old testament get in the way of me believing in intelligent design!!
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