An Old Game Is Back Again
The Market Ticker - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Login or register to improve your experience
Main Navigation
Sarah's Resources You Should See
Full-Text Search & Archives
Leverage, the book
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions. For investment, legal or other professional advice specific to your situation contact a licensed professional in your jurisdiction.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility; author(s) may have positions in securities or firms mentioned and have no duty to disclose same.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

The Market Ticker content may be sent unmodified to lawmakers via print or electronic means or excerpted online for non-commercial purposes provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media, to republish full articles, or for any commercial use (which includes any site where advertising is displayed.)

Submissions or tips on matters of economic or political interest may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must be complete (NOT a "pitch"), include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. Pitch emails missing the above will be silently deleted. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Considering sending spam? Read this first.

2023-09-13 13:09 by Karl Denninger
in Consumer , 258 references Ignore this thread
An Old Game Is Back Again
[Comments enabled]

Ever seen the ads?

"Save 20-25% on your power bill with this device!"

"What the power company doesn't want you to know!"

There are several iterations of this; some plug in and some that electricians will try to sell you to go in your breaker box.

Don't.

Yes, there is a device in the box the person will install or that you plug in; its not an empty box.  And yes, there is a basis for the claim but it does not apply to a residential power customer in every case I've ever seen in the United States, and I've lived in multiple states and with multiple electrical companies providing my power.

What is being "sold" is otherwise known as a power-factor device.

Power factor is a measurement of the apparent amount of power consumed versus the actual amount of work done.  They're different measurements; "VA" for apparent power and Watts for amount of work done.  If the thing drawing power is a straight resistor (e.g. an electric heating element in a water heater, your stove, coffee maker and incandescent lights) then the power factor is 1.0.  That is, the phase or "alignment" if you will, between voltage and amperage is identical.

Motors, which are in all sorts of things (a washing machine, a dryer drum, your air conditioner, a fan and similar) typically use induction motors.  As the name implies there is an inductor in there.  House power is alternating current; when a changing voltage goes through an inductor the amount of current drawn lags the voltage. It is like a resistance but only to a changing voltage, not a constant one.  Thus a motor typically will have a power factor less than 1.0 because the rate of change of voltage and amperage as the power alternates up and down in voltage is not exactly lined up.

A "power factor correction" device is simply a capacitor.  A capacitor stores energy temporarily and thus "leads" the inductive load, smoothing its lag and "correcting" the power factor from the perspective of whatever is providing the energy.

It does not change what the consuming device uses or the device's power factor but it does change, by shifting the incoming amperage more in-line with the voltage, what the supply -- in this case the power company -- sees.

In other words it moves the perceived power factor from the supplying end's point of view toward 1.0.

It does not, because it cannot, change the actual power factor and thus efficiency of the supplied device.  That is a function of the device's design and engineering.

Here's the problem from a standpoint of someone being sold such a device for a residenceResidences are billed in kilowatt-hours, or kWh -- that is, actual work performed.

The power company is the one who winds up "eating" the differential because they have to supply the amps irrespective of the imbalance between voltage delivered and amps delivered across the alternating current cycle.  In terms of actual power delivered and consumed, which is measured in watts, you are billed in watts not "apparent power" or kVA and thus from a perspective of your bill it makes no difference whether the power factor at any given time in your house is 1.0 or 0.85.

Now an industrial customer does in some cases have a "kVAr" charge for apparent power, that is, the differential between the "null" or 1.0 power factor from the utility's point of view and the power factor at the panelboard consumed by the building.  Industrial and commercial users typically pay a base "energy charge" (for kWh consumed, like you do in a house), a demand charge (this is computed based on the maximum required power because the utility has to be able to deliver it when demanded, and thus must build out the capacity for it even if 90% of the time you don't use it) and, in some cases depending on the power factor of your facility, a KVAR charge, which is a reactive power charge for a power factor that is less than 1.0 because the power company has to be able to deliver the amps and your mismatch costs them money which they otherwise can't recover.  In that case correcting for power factor might be worth doing, depending on what is generating the imbalance in your facility and how large it is.  Large motors and things like arc lighting -- or even more-seriously an arc furnace used in some industrial processes, generate very large power factor dislocations and the power company, for an industrial user, charges you for that because they will have to build out additional infrastructure to be able to deliver energy into that.  If that's a significant amount then obviously installing something that smooths the power factor out is a win for you as then you don't pay said bill.  (In extreme cases utilities may demand you do it in order to provide power at all because it presents a seriously-destabilizing load on the grid.)

THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO RESIDENTIAL SERVICE BECAUSE YOU ARE BILLED FOR TRUE POWER CONSUMED -- THAT IS, WATTS.  GO LOOK AT YOUR BILL -- IT CONTAINS A 'kWh" CHARGE AND NOT A KVAR CHARGE.

There are some utilities that are trying to get demand charges into residential service.  They do this to provide an incentive for users to spread out their usage (e.g. don't both dry clothes and charge your Tesla at the same time) or, if consumers refuse to do that, force them to pay for the additional transformers, generation capacity and transmission lines to be able to get the power to them.  They're rare, but showing up in a few places.  (As an aside if they ever do that here you can bet I'll use HomeDaemon to deliberately shut off and enable loads to evade that demand charge to the extent I'm able -- I had to pay it when I ran MCSNet and there was no way around it either as you can't exactly shut the chillers off in the computer room in the middle of summer unless you want all your machines to melt!)

But a KVAR charge, which is not the same as demand billing, is something I've never seen proposed or implemented in residential service.

If you had a KVAR charge then you could reduce it by installing a power-factor correction device.  That does not change the actual power factor of the connected device; that can only be done by changing the device's design.  But it does change how the supply of the energy sees that load; that is, it shifts the alignment of voltage and current toward concurrence.

The problem is that the benefit is to the supplier of the energy and that's the power company.   You're not billed for being out of coherence as a residential customer so there is no benefit to you in the installation of such a device!

Contemplate this folks: Since it is the power company that eats the power factor imbalance in a residence, if there is one, if it was worth it they'd come out and on their own initiative install a power factor correction device in the meter box at no cost to you.  That would not change a thing in terms of the size of your bill because the number of kilowatt hours your meter reads would not change but it would reduce the amperage load on their infrastructure, which is of benefit to them.

The reason they don't do it to every house in your neighborhood is that the savings to them are not worth the cost.

There is one exception to this: If you have off-grid generation such as an inverter and battery bank.  You'll notice inverters are rated in "kVA" and not kW.  Indeed even your small battery backup UPS for your computer, which is nothing more than an inverter, charger and battery that takes over when the power fails, is rated in VA or kVA, not watts.

So if you have such a system powering your residence then there may (depending on your actual power factor of your house) be value to you because you are the energy supplier and you might be able to buy a smaller and cheaper inverter yet still produce the amount of power required.

Otherwise?

Don't waste your money and DO report any so-called "professional" soliciting you in this manner to your local consumer protection folks.  It is not possible for you to save money on a charge you're never billed for in the first place so in a residential environment, if you are "on grid" with a power company, unless you have a KVAR charge on your bill and I've never seen that on a residential power bill the total amount of money savings such a device will provide to you is ZERO.

Any percentage of zero, that is no billed amount at all, is zero.

Go to responses (registration required to post)
 



 
Comments on An Old Game Is Back Again
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Page 1 of 2  First12Last
Dritizni 13 posts, incept 2023-07-18
2023-09-13 13:20:53

My mother just told me about this on the phone last weekend. She is the prime demo for scams like this, older single/divorced woman on Social Security. She has been scammed before, which means she gets approached by every scammer on the planet.

I won't forward her this post, because she wouldn't understand it, but I can tell her it is a scam.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 13:22:19

There's someone running that **** on NextKaren around here. ****ing pissed me off when I saw it this morning thus the Ticker -- wrote it up and posted the link over there.

**** these people sideways, especially the ones doing it as a panel install as I'm sure they're charging some crazy amount for a couple of capacitors (nice profit margin!) PLUS the time to put it in, which depending on where your panel is and how accessible that might be could be a considerable amount of money.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Greenacr 896 posts, incept 2016-03-15
2023-09-13 13:24:27

Part of the reason that this website is #1 on my list is for posts such as this.

If I were approached by someone selling this, I would probably be wary thinking that it was a scam but would not know why. Now I know and learned something in the process.

Thanks Karl!
78rpm 20 posts, incept 2023-08-07
2023-09-13 14:06:40

If someone fell for this scam, what recourse do they have? Hypothetically in Florida.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 14:08:24

Sue the installing electrician for fraud and demand triple damages (assuming they sold it to you and didn't just install what you handled them.)

Then go after their license.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Bshj 394 posts, incept 2007-08-07
2023-09-13 14:12:55

Maybe this is a scam but at least you can believe the "drink this every night and lose 50 lbs!"
Nelstomlinson 961 posts, incept 2011-12-21
2023-09-13 14:52:47

Electrical engineer here. Karl nailed it, 100% correct.
Raven 15k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-09-13 15:07:39

Professional -- by their standing in the community and the license they are required to not do something fraudulent which includes unsafe here. This is why they are given the franchise by said and other prof standing. Just like lawyers, accountants and their firms, brokers of all kinds, doctors, nurses...

Ok, i'll show myself out now.


----------
Mission Complete

The truth is just too powerful to know. Those who hold the truth suffer more than those who believe the lie. -The Hall of Tears
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 15:08:30

Well its not unsafe @Raven, it just steals your money as there will be no change in your billing rate, assuming, that is, the capacitor is housed in a way that it cannot present a hazard.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Raven 15k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-09-13 15:38:46

Karl, fraud includes unsafe, however stands on its own as a something a professional cannot do.

----------
Mission Complete

The truth is just too powerful to know. Those who hold the truth suffer more than those who believe the lie. -The Hall of Tears
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 15:38:57

Yeah, well....... good luck with that in this day and age.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Raven 15k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-09-13 15:45:39

Just answered many of the issues we discuss in other more recent columns of yours and other threads here.

My take is why bother then.

----------
Mission Complete

The truth is just too powerful to know. Those who hold the truth suffer more than those who believe the lie. -The Hall of Tears
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 15:45:46

Well, fair point.

Maybe I shouldn't.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Raven 15k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-09-13 15:52:30

I would never fault you for that.

After a while people need to accept and deal with the reality which they allowed on their watch, without the help of but a few.

----------
Mission Complete

The truth is just too powerful to know. Those who hold the truth suffer more than those who believe the lie. -The Hall of Tears
Emupaul 171 posts, incept 2013-04-17
2023-09-13 16:23:45

If it really worked the tech would be built into the electric meter.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 16:37:16

It DOES benefit the power company.

But the juice is not worth the squeeze.

The only "large" consumer in a house that is material is an older-style (induction motor) A/C (or heat pump); other motor driven appliances are simply not a high enough percentage of consumption to be worth it, and since usage of all items in a residence are variable-usage this means you need sense circuitry and switching for the capacitor(s) to suit (much like a Ham Radio antenna "auto-tuner") otherwise it would be wrong all the time, and probably wrong enough a high enough percentage of the time that it would actually make the situation worse.

Resistive loads (e.g. hot water heater, the heating element in an electric clothes dryer, range and/or oven, etc.) are all pf 1.0 anyway and those are the other high-drain appliances in a typical house.

Never mind that over the last couple of decades damn near everything has gone to inverter drive as its more efficient; your dishwasher and refrigerator probably are, and if you have a front-load washer the drum motor almost-certainly is too. Any sort of modulating A/C system (including a minisplit) is also.

Who gives a **** if you have a box fan with a power factor of 0.8? It draws 50 or 100 ****ing watts! That's NOTHING.

The amount of complexity and cost required to properly match on a dynamic basis is simply not worth enough in infrastructure savings at the power company level in a residential application, so they don't do it.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Andrew 238 posts, incept 2014-09-24
2023-09-13 17:10:50

Hum.
Why am I reminded of a device touted back in the early "Aughts" for cars.
"Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter".
Alleged to give you MOAR MPG's in your car by...
Because...
Using fuel that allegedly was wasted or something.
I forget what the guy said, either 25 or 40% more MPG!

It sounded like a scam so I didn't bite, it was "only" a few grand.
And at the time I "only" had about 4 in the 4 Runner, but it needed to work, and since it did, I decided "why risk a few grand on what could be a scam".
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 17:12:00

Remember the "Tornado" @Andrew?

A device that went inside the top compartment before the throttle plate on a carburetor, inside the air filter, and allegedly "greatly increased mileage" by causing the air to swirl as it went down the hole?

Well, it worked.
At removing money from your wallet to buy it!

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Ebt 361 posts, incept 2018-12-22
2023-09-13 17:30:32

I fell for the "StopWatt", I saw it advertised on Liberty Daily and in a moment of weakness I clicked and bought 2 of them.

Afterwards, I realized I got scammed but plugged it in anyway when it came. The next month, my electricity usage came in 20% lower than that month the previous year. I don't know what to say....we'll see what happens in September.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 17:39:58

20%? Utter and complete horse****.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Ee4fire 1k posts, incept 2011-03-24
2023-09-13 19:46:39

Karl,

Back in the 90's. when the compact fluorescent bulbs were sold as the big money saving products to replace the incandescent bulbs and save energy. Power companies offered huge rebates to install them. The cheap CF retrofit kits included LPF ballasts/transformers and people ended up not saving money, because the ballasts on single phase circuits were consuming more power. Sometimes even tripping circuit breakers.

Power factor is very important in large industrial power systems. I have a large matter now where an industrial facility is blaming a utility for "bad" power causing equipment failure, when it was their own facility's LPF causing the problem.

My other favorite one is the Tesla self-running generator. Hook an electric motor up to a generator and plug the motor in and run the generator. The generator starts producing power. Then unplug the motor and the generator miraculously keeps the motor running and miraculously you have free power.

Similar issue happened when computer and electronic power supplies went to solid state switching power supplies and dropped the transformer and rectifier AC to DC power supplies. They were used in computers, electronic ballasts, TV's etc. The total harmonic distortion (THD) for these power supplies were terrible and caused transformers and neutral conductors to overheat and burn up and/or catch fire because the 3rd harmonics would add together instead of cancelling each other out.

The old saying is if it too good to be true, it probably is.

----------
"Only by creating wealth can you relieve poverty.
It's what you do with your wealth that counts."
― Margaret Thatcher
Ingar 638 posts, incept 2017-02-14
2023-09-13 19:56:45

I saw the "power companies hate this" pop-up ad a few days ago. Someone hawking something to save you money is usually a conman. Alabama Power Company has a peak hour charge of 29cents/hr June 1 through September 30 during the hours of 1:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. weekdays. Their rate is a little over 9 cents/hr during the summer off peak hours. Using the high consumption appliances in off peak hours and turning off lights when not needed may save me enough each month to visit Taco Bell or some insipid burger joint once a month.

I remember the "Tornado" and some water injection device that was supposed to get your car some fantastic gas mileage. There have been more gimmicks that I've forgotten over the years. There are some useful steps that you can take to cut down on gasoline consumption and I think that I use them all.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 19:57:55

I am VERY tired of people preying on older folks who don't know better with this **** @Ingar. Frankly, I think they'd make an excellent receptacle for a 5" mortar shell up their ass, followed of course by a lighter to the wick.

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-09-13 20:15:09

Yep @Ee4fire and the amusing part of a breaker trip is that you'd look at the wattage and say "heh wait a minute, I'm well within the limit!"

Well, you are except the breaker doesn't trip on WATTS, it trips on AMPS and with the PF being ****ty enough while the WATTS drawn is in fact what the "nameplate" claims it is not for example 120 watts as 1A @ 120V it is 1.5A @ ~80V when integrated over the whole sinusoid, and suddenly the 15 lamps that should be fine on a 20A circuit, ~75% of capacity, is really 22.5 amps and... POP!

----------
"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Page 1 of 2  First12Last