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2023-05-26 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in Politics , 674 references Ignore this thread
The DeSantis (Or GOP Generally) Political Question
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Let's cut the crap and get right down to it:

Voting for a lesser evil is like being asked whether you'd like to be robbed -- or raped -- a little or a lot, both at gunpoint.  I will not and you should not support this; such nonsense, placed before us every 2 years, is a false choice.

There are answers but they only occur when we, the people, condition our support and, perhaps, even acceptance of our government on having an actual choice in this regard.

Its one thing if the people, presented a choice, choose insanity.  But -- what if, as was the case for the last several election cycles, there is no choice?

We all know the situation with the pandemic.  Not one Governor actually said "No!" and meant it.  People claim DeSantis did but they're lying.  I lived in Florida when this started; I was in the process of moving to Tennessee but was a Florida resident and had to put up with all of it during the process of moving.  My daughter lived in Florida, as an independent adult, and lost her job because the place she worked was forced closed by the Governor.

Others I know ran establishments that were forced closed, in one case by cops showing up and forcibly ejecting the patrons; the cops were all, of course, armed.  Do not tell me that this didn't happen: It did happen, it occurred to varying degrees everywhere and not one of said 50 governors has apologized, said they were wrong and most-importantly passed iron-clad law to prevent it from ever being done again.

How about illegal immigration?   Florida has some of the highest premiums for car insurance in the United States.  One reason is that Florida has done little or nothing about illegal aliens driving without insurance thus there is a very good chance that if you get hit and it is their fault they'll have no insurance -- and suing someone without anything is a waste of time.  Thus you are forced to pay for the risk of said person hitting you and that price falls on every driver licensed in Florida in their uninsured motorist coverage.  Over my 20 years of living there this cost me thousands of dollars, directly, for which I got not a nickel of actual benefit.

Now DeSantis has asked for and gotten an "E-Verify" bill passed.  But did he also get an Amendment proposed and passed that bars illegal aliens from access to state-funded taxpayer services?  No.  And is there a mandate that the State actually guarantee compliance -- by, for example, requiring that employers document said compliance via a state-operated system at the time of hiring?  No.  That wasn't part of it.  Further, the law exempts employers with fewer than 25 employees so the crew of illegals roofing houses will not be impacted.  It is trivial to get around these rules in the contracting industry by setting up parallel LLCs and keeping each subcontractor under 25 employees.

So let's talk about what would be a reasonable ask.

Is it not reasonable to expect that manufacturers are legally responsible for the integrity of their products?  If, after discovering that a flaw or risk exists they continue trials, sweep said evidence under the rug or otherwise obfuscate what's going on a courtroom is accessible to those allegedly harmed in which such evidence can be heard and a determination made?

How about the rank price-fixing?  What has DeSantis done in Florida about it?  I can tell you what he did during the time I lived there: Nothing.  In fact there are medical centers in NW FL in particular that feast on such disparities and have been known to be doing it for a very long time.  Florida has long been the capital of this sort of abuse and you have paid for it if you live in the state, directly and indirectly, particularly when inmates in a jail require care and thus you get the bill in your property taxes.

Can this be fixed at the state level with legislation or even just executive action?  You bet; States are the exclusive issuers of both business and medical licenses.  Any state can condition said licensing on non-discriminatory pricing irrespective of the method of payment.  You expect this at WalMart, the grocery store and gas station.  Nobody would tolerate the price of gasoline varying by 10:1 based on which company you bought auto insurance from.  Yet this sort of nonsense is bog-standard through the medical industry.  Where is the candidate who will put a stop to it and, if they're a governor, can demonstrate they're serious because they did put a stop to it?

In addition the executive, which is the Governor's department controls the prosecuting apparatus.  DeSantis could have directed his prosecutors to go after medical providers for violations of the State anti-trust laws, which absolutely do exist in each state and which are available under existing law -- no new legislation required.  He, like the rest, actively refused.

DeSantis is NOT a governor who did any of these things.

Folks if we are going to fix what's wrong with this nation it starts with the medical system.  If we don't force one of the political parties to do it neither will because there are billions of reasons for them not to spread around the politicians in both parties.  This has to stop because CMS, Medicare and Medicaid services, consumed one third of all dollars spent federally last year -- $2 trillion of the $6 trillion total -- and is in fact responsible for the entire trillion dollar deficit.

That's right -- if it was stopped (that is, it spent only what it took in via taxes by stopping the screwing medical system-wide) the federal government would in fact run a modest surplus and the inflation you are having happen right now would not be happening.

It is our responsibility because we have allowed the last several election cycles to pass without holding anyone accountable for this.  Trump infamously promised to put a stop to it with three platform planks during his campaign.  I said at the time I didn't believe him.  Literally on the night of the election all three disappeared from his campaign web site and were never seen again.

As if that wasn't enough he agreed with and signed the largest deficit spending spree in history.  Yes, there was a nasty virus.  That doesn't justify what was done including paying medical providers bonuses for procedures irrespective of success or failure, including in some cases an 89% death rate across six months in the back half of 2021.

Nobody with a single hint of intelligence would pay someone a bonus when they fail nine out of ten times -- but we did, and it is this sort of perverse incentive through the system that must stop now or the federal government and our economy risk collapse due to the inflationary spiral that comes from continually expanding said spending even when it is objectively worse than flushing the money down the toilet as the patient dies 9 times out of 10.

So will we demand this from a candidate who we can then support, vote for and hold to their promises?

Or will we simp for whatever someone says, but with no record of addressing any of this if they are currently in an office and have been for several years without doing any of it?

If we do the latter, I remind you, my prediction for CMS "eating the budget" in terms of time was 2024.  That's next year, and while there might be some slop in that time there's not much as all of the mathematical predictions and their impacts that I've made in this regard, which go back to the 1990s, have proved up.

That's the choice folks.  You may not like it, you may think you can simp on this due to this or that issue, but the pandemic "response" was a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

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Comments on The DeSantis (Or GOP Generally) Political Question
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Rangeishot 3k posts, incept 2021-11-18
2023-05-26 07:41:34

So, demand unobtainable perfection, and get nothing at all.

(I don't think national-level voting works for reasons of fraud, but that's a different rant.)

"The Western world over the past three decades has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good." - Thomas Sowell
Tickerguy 195k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-05-26 07:42:47

No, I demand that the most-important element that is driving the collapse of our fiscal health, and which WILL FUCK US ALL if it is not addressed, be addressed.

We can debate ANYTHING ELSE but we must NOT allow THIS to continue.

The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
Cmoledor 2k posts, incept 2021-04-13
2023-05-26 07:50:33

Indeed Karl. Maffs is a bitch! Cheers all.

The whole world is one big fucking scam
Full throttle till the end. Ocdawg
Take the stick you tried to beat me with and go fuck your own face. Ishmael
Lewfalo 54 posts, incept 2023-03-09
2023-05-26 07:50:40

...the pandemic "response" was a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Brilliant and solid truth. There were only a few national and/or regional political leaders on the entire planet that didn't jump, salivating at the opportunity to subjugate their citizens over covid. The more dead bodies the more justification they had, in their minds and the minds of citizens the world over.

The guy from Belarus said it was a flu, so drink vodka and eat chicken soup. He had a coup attempt on him shortly after he couldn't be bribed to go along with an IMF loan. A few leaders in Africa made a public mockery of the PCR tests, and stated that mangos and goats tested "positive". Some of those leaders are now dead.

This was a world-wide, cooperative effort of subjugation and technocracy, coordinated by the WHO and started by the CCP (with the gracious help of the NIH and U.S. military it seems). There was no resistance to the tyranny at any governmental level anywhere in the world, other than what I mentioned.

And it was indeed a symptom. The problem is that it is the nature of all governments everywhere, to wield as much power as they can get away with. Is it a necessary evil, or just plain evil? There seems to be no alternative because as Carlin always said -- Garbage in, garbage out. Our rulers are a reflection of ourselves.
Erroldo 668 posts, incept 2013-09-12
2023-05-26 08:04:00

Show me one major change in history for the people that HAVE EVER occurred at the ballot box????
Every major change for humanity in governance occur at the tip of a wielding sword or bullets flying. Those are the observed facts. Nothing will ever change for our conditions by voting. So I stop voting. I will vote when I have something to vote for. The arms of the same party DEMS and REPS do not present anything to vote for that will make any difference. We will continue to slide into destruction, until the bullets start flying and someone emerge offering real change. It has always been that way all around the world, including now in Ukraine, except this involve to foreign powers, the formation of this country and just about everywhere else humanity have meaningful change.
Even as recently as a few years ago, change for minorities did not occur at the ballot box. It only occur when a mass led by Dr. King said we want change.
The best means we have now is non-participation in the economy, except for bare necessities to remain alive. This will result in the least loss of life and starve the beast to loose some weight and make change we DEMAND for the better of everyone.
Twainfan2 1k posts, incept 2018-12-04
2023-05-26 08:04:21

I can only think of one or two people that have some public recognition I would consider voting for because I believe them to be honest, intelligent people. Tom Woods is one.

Every election cycle is the same. We get shit candidates in both major parties and even in the Libertarian party. Look at the clowns (losers or frauds) the GOP is lining up: Tim Scott, Asa Hutchinson, Trump, DeSatan, Haley, Vivek... the Republican Party should be disbanded if that's the best they can do.
Ingar 540 posts, incept 2017-02-14
2023-05-26 08:04:48

We get to "choose" after a long process of vetting of candidates by TPTB. DeSantis passed one hurdle when he went to Jerusalem, donned a small hat, and banged his head against the Whining Wall. He's shown that he will play ball with insurance of all kinds, protect the medical establishment, and allow illegal immigration to flourish. More hurdles passed. He hasn't had an opportunity that I'm aware of to promote the military-industrial complex, but I expect a big fanfare about that soon.

I'm sure that I'm missing some of the potential sponsors of "our" candidates, but DeSantis does have a good PR staff who can address issues in an appealing manner as they arise.
Rangeishot 3k posts, incept 2021-11-18
2023-05-26 08:05:19

Ah. Frankly I didn't get to the second part about CMS. Perhaps that would have made a better opener, I figured it was another generic "I hate DeSantis" diatribe. (You're not wrong about his missteps, but I only skim those and the "I hate Trump" rants, by this point.)

Anyone who has learned about the CMS problem (probably from you, as literally nobody else of any exposure seems to recognize it) already understands there aren't any politicians who acknowledge it. I suspect there may be very few politicians who even realize it's a nation-destroying problem.

So the real (tremendously difficult) question is how to improve broad recognition of the problem, not just constantly complaining that the current round of cut-outs are still ignoring it. That's basically a given.

Let the downvotes flow, friends! I can take it! smiley

See y'all next week.

"The Western world over the past three decades has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good." - Thomas Sowell
Tickerguy 195k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-05-26 08:05:59

Oh, so you basically said "you attacked my guy so fuck off!" without actually reading the entire article.

I'll give you credit for admitting it....

The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
Iou 1k posts, incept 2009-03-16
2023-05-26 08:54:43

Politicians are massively rewarded to lie. Why would anyone waste their time participating in a system that promotes liars and cheats. The worst scum that exist among us are selected to be our leaders. They are criminals working for bigger criminals that want to own everything. How many "elections" will it take before you realize nothing changes no matter who wins?

Albert Einstein wrote..
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies
Uwe 10k posts, incept 2009-01-03
2023-05-26 09:00:02

There isn't a single person running for elected office anywhere who isn't evil to some degree. That includes Libertarians, Constitution Party people, etc. The question is simply: Do you want more evil or less?

I consistently voted Libertarian for several decades because they seemed to be the least evil. Then I realized they were still somewhat evil and stopped voting entirely for over a decade. During that time we got Obama, who made me realize that Heinlein was right:

"If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for, but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong."

The catch is, for a vote against to be effective, it has to be a vote for someone or something that has a reasonable chance of prevailing. In other words, a vote for a mythical demon is no vote at all.

"Corona Virus will come and go, but government will NEVER forget how easy it was to take control of everyone's life; to control every sporting event, classroom, restaurant table, church p
Johnydiamond54 20 posts, incept 2023-04-26
2023-05-26 09:32:50

Well I will say based on the overall consensus here on this forum as well as other platforms, that consensus being that everybody is coming around the concept you're not going to solve anything via the election cycle.

It reminds me of the 2010 through 2013 era in time, there was a mass of people leaving the Democrat and Republican parties they were branching out looking for third-party solutions.

Which I think is a good idea, the problem came in 2015 when by that time it was realized that the tea party is not only not a real party but they done sold out and got hijacked by the Republicans and thus became utterly worthless.

But then of course in 2015 you also had the announcement that Trump was officially running, which he was teasing the concept and half-assed campaigning and late 2014.

As his campaign picked up steam I believe that his suckered people back into both political parties because all the sudden it became either you unconditionally loved this guy or you absolutely hated him.

Trump threw around the term deep state quite a lot, and at the time I basically asked the question who's to say he's not a part of it given look how his controversial candidacy has lured a lot of people back into the two-party system?

Of course I myself long ago branched out and became a libertarian I left the Republican party for a Time.

But I was invited to be a delegate and when I gave some talking points to the local head of the party he straight up said whoa wait a minute hold on turbo we're not trying to take the election by storm.
And this occurred in 2012, he straight up told me that there after 5% or less of the vote.

Right there I stopped my affiliation with that party and I conducted Mass amounts of research and I came up with a conclusion.

The grassroots general everyday people on main Street movement of libertarianism it's fine, it's basic philosophy is you do your thing I'll do my thing which is pretty much one of the oldest American ideas if not principals.

But the party itself is not what it was cracked up to be and I'm certain that every political party has this problem. a there is an inner circle and in order to get close to that or circle you better come up with all kinds of money and you have to totally swear big allegiance to this group and of course yes I'm grossly oversimplifying this.

Doing my best to keep it short let's just say I found out things I did not like did the party itself particularly the upper echelons of the party is so far removed from the general main Street philosophy of libertarianism It kind of almost mimics the Communist party.

Frankly there again I don't doubt that every political party has a similar structure if not similar issues.

And of course at that point I had questioned how many people discovered this or other things that they didn't particularly care for not just with the libertarian party but many other third parties and or movements?

And had they discovered enough of what they didn't like maybe that's why it was so easy for them to get sucked back into the two-party system.

those problems that they would have found out long time ago probably never went away those parties are most likely still structured the same way that I disagreed with them meaning you might have some people out there right now that don't really know about it so they might for 5 minutes join up out of frustration but once they realize these candidates get buried and they get buried simply because the party has no intentions of collecting any more votes than 5% or less of any given state they're going to walk away.

And everything I'm saying here is based on everything I found out and that includes what the head of the libertarian party in my county told me.

So some of you may have her different things out of different party leaders.

But I will say it seems awfully suspicious to me that they wouldn't want to go after any more than a maximum of 5% of the voting population what the hell is the point of that? it almost seems like they're a ringer for the other political parties.

Point of me bringing all this up is simply because it reminds me of a short time ago with everyone getting fed up with the two-party system again I wonder where it will go this time around?

because we didn't really have a lot of success the last time, everybody was straight up leaving these parties and it became common knowledge both parties started to panic their ass off but then ultimately they conjure up Trump and they threw Hillary out there and next thing you know everybody's back.

And then of course there is the voter turnout numbers,
There's been some varying degrees of percentages given over the years but it seems as if one number that continuously comes up ever since Bush and Gore in the early 2000s is 26% of the entire voting population are the ones that actually go out and vote.

Sometimes it's said that the percentage is a little higher than 26%, other times some outlets report that it's a bit lower.

But the overall consensus to gather after all of these years is that people are or have indeed lost interest at least to some degree.

You know they talk about the silent majority or at least I would assume everyone here has heard about a silent majority.

But if we are to believe the reports of the voter turnout percentages, then the claim that the silent majority came out of the woodwork to vote for Trump back in 16 was apparently an outright lie because, the voter turnout numbers were really no better during that election than they would have been for Obama McCain or Obama and Romney.

So there again this is all based off of reports I have seen, perhaps you have different information the numbers I'm certain are fluid.

It does occur to me that based on low voter turnout percentages that the silent majority is maybe still in the wings watching, maybe they've turned it all off and tuned the hell out and kind of don't really care anymore because they've moved beyond the point of observing they know it's shit.

I really honestly question what has happened to the supposed silent majority have they dropped completely out?
Where is it possible that they were a lower percentage than what was previously thought in other words they didn't half exist in the capacity that was rumored for the past 25 years?

Anyone's thoughts?

Bluto 2k posts, incept 2021-07-10
2023-05-26 09:34:19

If there was a candidate who did indeed promise to fix the healthcare system by implementing necessary reforms, would he get elected?

Remember, there would be a near 100% guarantee of a severe recession. And the healthcare racket employs about 20% of Americans, so that is 20% voting against you, with a near 100% turnout since many would be losing their jobs. So before even considering any other issue, you already have 30% of the people voting against you, which I don't see how that is overcome.

So is the fault really with Obama, Biden, Trump, DeSantis, Clinton, etc, or the people who elected them?

Most Americans have the intellectual capacity of a fifth-grader, coupled with the emotional maturity of a retard.

As such. the medical industry will cause a train wreck, and there is, practically speaking, no chance of fixing it before that happens. So why not elect the best possible men and women so we have a non-zero chance at recovery when that wreck occurs?

As for the immigration stuff, there is always more that can be done. At least what DeSantis is doing is a start and can be built upon. I look at it similar to the 2nd amendment stuff. I'm not aware of any state that went from banning concealed carry to constitutional carry in a year. It has taken years or even decades via incrementalism. Concealed carry with strict restrictions, then easing restrictions, then lowering fees, then limited open carry, then carry without a permit. Not ideal nor pretty, but it worked it the end. Yes, I realize what Florida just enacted wasn't really "constitutional carry", but permitless concealed carry. Progress is progress, and I will take the win.

"You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end -- which you can never afford to lose -- with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever
Blanca 558 posts, incept 2020-07-25
2023-05-26 09:37:24

As preacher John MacArthur puts it "we aren't voting our way out of this mess." That doesn't mean we shouldn't vote (even if for the lesser of two evils). That said, I will likely not vote for Trump if Trump is the R nominee.

It's hard for me to be tough on DeSantis after fleeing the inept and corrupt Polis and the daily damage that he and his party are doing to Colorado. Much of it he got started as a result of Trump's capitulation to the COVID craziness.
Twiggler 180 posts, incept 2021-02-02
2023-05-26 10:09:30

Hope this is pertinent as it pertains to how there's no real difference in any candidate any more.

I posted on another thread I responded to a survey from my federal state representative and that the survey was limited to 3 choices, 2 of which were the typical gooberment responses and the 3rd was other and that I had to send an email with my other response.

I actually got a reply. But it didn't answer any of my questions. It is typical gooberment response. Here it is in all its crap. I'm sure you all can pick out the crap.

Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 2811, the Limit, Save, Grow Act of 2023. I appreciate your input on this important issue.

H.R. 2811 is the House Republican plan limit government spending, save taxpayer dollars, and grow the economy. The bill reduces spending to the FY 2022 levels, allows for only 1% aggregate increase to the budget over ten years to limit government expansion, and reduces government spending by $4.5 trillion over the decade. It also includes work requirements for able-bodied adults without dependents, rescinds COVID funding that has been sitting dormant for over two years, repeals "Green New Deal" tax credits, includes permitting reform and rescinds the funding for 87,000 new IRS agents.

Democrats are addicted to government spending, and they are willing to risk defaulting on our debt instead of budgeting like every American family has to do. Simply put, the government should spend within its means. One way to do that is to make sure abled bodied adults, without dependents, are working and providing for themselves. We must also harvest the energy resources and rare earth minerals we have in the United States, instead of depending on China to prop up President Bidens dangerous rush to unreliable green energy. I supported H.R. 2811 when it passed the House on April 26, 2023.

Thank you again for taking the time to share your views. Please dont hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of any assistance.

How can one talk about government spending within its means yet create bills/laws that do not create a balanced budget?

How can one make a leap to say that one way to have the government spend within its means is to make sure people are working and providing for themselves? And what about the presupposed exceptions from the sentence in that this wouldn't apply to any that are disabled, any that have dependents?

Neal 317 posts, incept 2014-01-09
2023-05-26 10:09:55

@Bluto, a wise candidate could promise limited reform of parts of the medical industry, say the VA. That limits the size of the bloc that he or she alienates but gets out the vote of those who want a candidate who is doing more than the other candidates. Then after elected he has the option of a nuclear strike reform of the whole system or doing a piecemeal and graduated reform over 4 years to avoid a major dislocation recession that would strike from laying off ten million plus deadwood.
So which candidate is even mentioning even limited reform and which ones are going along with the growth of the parasite?
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-05-26 10:14:41

The health care racket. We went through the down sizing of the defense contracting racket in the early 90's. Same for the tech racket in the early aughts and the housing/construction racket after the '08 crash. It's health care's turn for down sizing!

Its all in the mitochondria
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-05-26 10:15:08

Of course Karl is right about reigning in the health care racket. But that doesn't mean that it will be done. In the end it will happen, just not the way the politicians want it to happen.

The long wait times I keep hearing of from people in need of medical attention suggests to me that some change or collapse has already started.

Its all in the mitochondria
Tappedout 279 posts, incept 2020-09-21
2023-05-26 12:02:32

I can no longer define the term "We the people."

All I keep hearing and seeing is "Me and my people."

The best case scenario is a Phoenician rebirth of our country from the firestorm coming.

The medical/pharma cartel is not only the primary budget problem, but an example of failure of society on all levels, including rule of law.

There was, is, and will never be any significant action because no one will ever even try, let alone be able to convince the majority of the scope of the problems and the solutions you have proposed.

Voluntarily taking out the biggest, if not one of the top three "businesses" in every mid sized city in America will never happen.

We deserve what's coming, and I hope it happens ASAP. The longer we wait, the worse it will be.

Heartlander 2k posts, incept 2021-02-25
2023-05-26 12:02:52

Someone actually did try to address the CMS problem way back when: Paul Ryan.
Remember his little blackboard diagrams?

The Establishment wasted not time going after him. Remember the pushing-grandma-off-the-cliff ads?

And we all know what he's turned into since.

His kids were all school-age back at the time. I am convinced that the criminal mob that runs this country made it clear to him what they would do to those kids if he didn't buckle under and play their game.

And THAT is why this won't change. No decent person is ready to see their family kidnapped, raped, tortured, mutilated, and/or murdered.
Iou 1k posts, incept 2009-03-16
2023-05-26 12:03:07

The only "election" that you are allowed to participate in today, that can actually impact change is your choice in who you do business with. Your money matters. Stop supporting businesses and banks that do not align with your beliefs. That's it. Much of what is happening today would not exist if everyone followed that rule. However that's much easier said then done. List the companies that people complain the most about and yet the majority of those same people continue to do business with them. Why? Because today it takes effort to find alternatives to the big corporate empire. Thus, convenience is more important then freedom. That's what the corporate giants are banking on and so far it's working.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies
Thelazer 1k posts, incept 2009-05-11
2023-05-26 12:49:18

How much longer before 60% or more of this country says fuck it and stops paying there taxes? Because I think that's what it will take.
Jack_crabb 16k posts, incept 2010-06-25
2023-05-26 12:49:27

So will we demand this from a candidate who we can then support, vote for and hold to their promises?

Or will we simp for whatever someone says, but with no record of addressing any of this if they are currently in an office and have been for several years without doing any of it?


Molon Labe
Where is Henry Bowman when you need him?
How many are willing to pledge this? We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor
Traz 271 posts, incept 2009-08-14
2023-05-26 12:49:38

It's going to blow and they will say "we never saw it coming" that's why they absolutely won't talk about it and have shut down everyone who has. This will be epic in a very very bad way...


You can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game. Vote them all out 2023
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