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 The Idiotic 14th Amendment Argument
Ingar 541 posts, incept 2017-02-14
2023-05-22 11:19:18

The tyrant Abraham Lincoln violated the constitution by turning a voluntary union into a coercive one. We live in the fiction of a constitutional republic. We'll have WWF drama about the debt ceiling from both parties, but should there be a default, the state media will say it's all due to the stupid party. This will end like all the drama shows of the past with a capitulation of the folks ostensibly wanting reductions in guvamint spending.

One of these days, the nations that we have economically and militarily bullied will stop buying out debt. What will the gibs-me-dat constituency do with monopoly money and only empty store shelves to mostly peacefully loot?
Indianarube 1k posts, incept 2020-03-22
2023-05-22 11:19:26

Yep. It's all theater. I'd say Kabuki, but that's an insult to Japanese theater. Kayfabe is the word. That's WWE theater. They know it's fake, we know it's fake, but still it goes on. Sadly, unlike other theater, there is ZERO entertainment value here.

Wake me up when there's gallows and guillotines lined up on the Washington DC mall. Now THAT would be entertaining. Never going to happen though. Probably the best we can hope for is canned sunshine. Got your popcorn and 50k SPF?
Evergreen 318 posts, incept 2021-12-26
2023-05-22 11:36:45

@Happyapricot,

It's not about money; it's about incentive.

If you worked multiple decades at reduced compensation for a pension payout upon retirement, you performed the work all those years. If, when pension time comes, the pension gets withheld or otherwise goes bust, YOU are out. The productivity is in the past.

NOW, were this to be the case publicly, those who witnessed the situation would be disinclined to fall for that ploy. Thus, the currency of a pension falls flat (in the ideal case).

As to there not being "enough money", again, it's not the money. The nation has in reserve a population with labor potential and natural resources. When employed and deployed, the combination is called economy. When dormant, nothing. The money is nothing but a credit bartering system. What is important is that the resources are 1) available and 2) deployed. Deployment fails when the credit bartering system collapses on bad faith. That's the money part.
Burya_rubenstein 2k posts, incept 2007-08-08
2023-05-22 13:21:14

Calling it Kakabuni theater is an insult to Japanese pornography.
Orangecrush 85 posts, incept 2018-09-29
2023-05-22 13:21:23

How finished is our Republic?

My personal gauge, is that outside of posters on this forum, any serious & thinking people that I interact with still subscribe to the notion that we can vote our way out of this mess. No matter how many times I try to show them the facts and send them articles (such as those posted on Market-Ticker and a few other rational websites), they believe that Trump, DeSantis, Tim Scott, or some other member of the clown-show can 'turn this thing around', "especially if we take the Senate next year". They believe that conservatives (does that term even mean anything in 2023?) are currently in control of the House and the Supreme Court and that once "we" take back the other two branches then victory is assured.

I will happily eat crow if they are right and I am wrong. But 40 years as a voter tells me otherwise.
Jdough 245 posts, incept 2012-05-04
2023-05-22 13:21:30

@Mrbobo said:
Quote:
The last of the competent people in the larger state apparatus seemingly retired or aged out with the Clinton era


I spent the first 3/4's of my life in the DC area. Some of the more decent career civil service employees left when the post 9/11 security state really got into swing, especially at the civilian agencies like NIH. That one in particular went from a breezy college campus type atmosphere to feeling like a military base. I heard that change cited directly as a reason for leaving.

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America is a third world country with iPhones - Anonymous
Bigdaddy63 447 posts, incept 2008-01-18
2023-05-22 13:21:46

Most on this site understand this is more Kabuki theater, with both sides attempting to look tough to satisfy their base, in order to fundraise from it.

Once you understand the following, everything makes sense:

Democrats want money to get power
Republicans want power to get money
Both sides don't give a rats ass about you


Every person has to face choices daily regarding balancing their expenses. We have to live within constraints. I would love to be able to print up a few extra million to buy that house in Hawaii, or that shiny new Bugatti, but alas, that is not an option to me.

Only government can print money out of thin air and recklessly spend well above the level of income (taxes) taken in each year. We are to blame as we keep electing these criminals into office, so why should they change. There are no repurcussions, no accountability, no public outrage.

When over 50% of the people are dependent on the government for some form of subsidy and income, nothing will change

When Corporations, billionares, and foreign countries control the politicians, nothing will change

The budget "crisis" could easily be solved by simply limiting spending to 1% less than what they spend last year. ONE PERCENT

And CONgress and Biden would never agree to that because they know half the people are on the take and the other half will continue to take it up the ass

I guarantee McCarthy will cave at the last minute and pass either a CR or some other vehicle to avoid a "shutdown", which we all know is also a farce. Only "non- essential" government services are shut down. Remember when Obama intentionally closed down parks and other government areas to inflict maximum pain on people, in an attempt to put pressure on the Republicans? It worked then and will work now when they put some more Republicans pushing granny over the cliff in a wheel chair ads on TV.

At this point the only thing I believe in

God
Dry Ammo

Johnydiamond54 22 posts, incept 2023-04-26
2023-05-22 13:29:58

Act one should be to cut off all foreign aid.
Pull back our military forces.
And minimize our presence as the world police.

Right there I believe i just saved nearly a trillion bucks!

Oh well, forget it I forgot for a second that our nation buys its friends.
If we cutoff our drinking buddies, I,I mean friends and allies, we'll really be isolated.

Plus in the event a real war we'd have to retake beaches n shit to be able to establish bases.
Raven 13k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-05-22 13:45:39

"Oh, by the way, no, refusing to raise the ceiling is not a default. Treasury has the funds to pay the principal (or roll it) and interest since rolling said debt does not increase the ceiling and the money is there to pay the interest."

It is sad how many vernacular people listening to these debt ceiling discussions over the years and discussing said do not understand the above.

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"This guy is fantastically annoying to listen to, but he has some interesting info..." -- Rangeisshot April 26, 2023
Andrew 195 posts, incept 2014-09-24
2023-05-22 15:14:16

Calling it "The Most Recent Debt Target" is more truthful, but "Debt Ceiling" makes better headlines.
It always gets raised.
Ponder if you treated your house that way, you'd have...
What, 20 stories now?
On the same foundation, though in this case it's brick, or sandstones.
Nothing underneath has been increased to deal with the extra load of debt, there's no new innovation, no new market or taxable product to take up that slack, much of US industry is now overseas thanks to that Giant Sucking Sound that ol' Perot predicted.
Sonoran_monk 3k posts, incept 2021-08-16
2023-05-22 15:14:21

Most people in this country can't balance their own checkbook and wonder "where does all the money go?" at the end of the month.
Ckaminski 6k posts, incept 2011-04-08
2023-05-22 15:14:26

The sea change in gun rights over the past 20 years has me hopeful that the holes in USS America can be patched before she flounders.

There have been setbacks in places and shit like red flag laws, but more states are constitutional carry now than ever before in our modern times...


But I am a pessimistic optimist so take that as you will.

Thomdd1959 88 posts, incept 2013-02-17
2023-05-22 15:56:45

Only spending authorized by Our States in Our Constitution to Our federal government can be considered "authorized by law". We call these "enumerated powers".

That was the way it was supposed to work.

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Government only works for the benefit of the people when it is conducted in the full light of day. -- Karl Denninger
Bluto 2k posts, incept 2021-07-10
2023-05-22 16:27:09

The Democrats want the Republicans to raise taxes in exchange for any budget cuts (which really aren't even cuts anyway).

The same Democrats who are trying to CUT taxes for rich home-owners in states like California and New York by reinstating mortgage and property tax deduct-ability against income taxes. Note that such a repeal would also drive up the cost of houses, making them less affordable for the "poor", which is who the Democrats claim to help.

The Republicans got slammed for eliminating that deduct-ability as part of the Trump tax cuts, and it probably cost them control of the House in 2020, as rich voters in California, New York, and New Jersey punished Republicans for raising their taxes.

Anyway, since the Democrats have the Senate and Presidency, it is only fair to meet them halfway. Here is my proposal.

Divide the amount they want to raise taxes by the number of illegals in the country, and assess a "per head" tax. So if they want another $500 billion annually in taxes, and there are 20 million illegals, that comes out to $25,000 per illegal per year. Non-payment is a federal felony.

Since American citizens are typically only given 60 days to comply with a new rule or regulation out of DC, let's give the illegals one week to pay the tax. That is more than generous.

Upon payment, the illegal is immediately deported, and banned from re-entering for 10 years.

If an illegal is caught before they can pay, the fine is doubled, and they are permanently banned from entering the country again.

The tax accrues interest with time, if not paid on time.

Any citizen hiding an illegal is guilty not only of harboring an illegal, but also federal tax evasion.

Citizens may pay the tax for an illegal, but with a 10% processing surcharge added. Note that said illegal is still deported and has to wait 10 years before re-entering. If a "sponsored" illegal attempts to re-enter the country before the 10 years is up, then the citizen who paid their tax incurs a new tax levy identical to the original amount, and accepts civil liability for any criminal acts they commit.

This fixes a lot of problems.

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"You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end -- which you can never afford to lose -- with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever
Neal 319 posts, incept 2014-01-09
2023-05-22 16:31:28

Im personally OK with the debt ceiling getting raised. But with 4 caveats. Its the last raise, any new debt must be paid back to the current ceiling within 4 years, every public employees wage/ compensation is frozen at current levels until the extra debt is paid back and every member of both houses will have their compensation cut to the minimum wage.
Oh and one more caveat. If the debt isnt paid down to the current ceiling then every politician who votes to raise the ceiling is declared bankrupt as guarantors of the extra debt.
Such caveats apply to us in the real world when we plan to borrow money, we tighten our spending, plan our budgets and run the risk of bankruptcy if we dont pay our debts when sue. The same should apply to congress.
Tickerguy 195k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-05-22 16:33:02

I say no.

All the way back to Reagan and Tipper Congress has reneged on spending. Reagan agreed to the tax cut deal on the promise that Tipper would cut spending. He reneged and Reagan did nothing about it. For that they both deserved to be skullfucked immediately.

The only way to cut it off is to, well, cut it off.

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The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
Themortgagedude 12k posts, incept 2007-12-17
2023-05-22 18:41:39

Lets just freeze all govt spending and reduce it 1% per year. No one should notice 1%. Hell technology should save 1% a year.

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I think its time we ask ourselves if we still know the freedoms that our founding fathers intended for us. Ronald Reagan 1964
Twainfan2 1k posts, incept 2018-12-04
2023-05-22 18:41:47

I believe I read somewhere that Republicans want to cut discretionary spending but increase military spending. Worthless shit sacks. Hopefully nothing happens and the government shuts down to some degree.
Edward.fish 523 posts, incept 2021-12-17
2023-05-22 18:41:56

Tickerguy wrote..
I'm not sure whether I would get more enjoyment out of the can being full of cement or contact explosive.

@Tickerguy -- I vote for Neutron Star or Black Hole.

Why?
Because it's the physics equivalent of the saying "Because fuck you, that's why."

Mrbobo wrote..
The last of the competent people in the larger state apparatus seemingly retired or aged out with the Clinton era. We're well into the third decade of shite being led by these unserious people who at their best were B-teamers and are themselves getting old. Now we're dealing the C squad, and even worse, their spawn or proteges. For fucks sake, Biden was the definition of political mediocrity when he was sharp. I think he he is almost a perfect embodiment of a degenerate nation.

@Mrbobo -- There was one speech/presentation/article that I dimly remember on the subject of hiring: the best hiring is people that are "better" than they are, the good are those that hire people of the same level of competency, and the average hires people that are worse than they are. (The implication is that the average HR/Hiring-manager is going to build a team that is generally no better than he is.) -- Your rundown of the people in government really reminded me of this.

Happyapricot wrote..
This might be a bit of a naive understanding of history, so point me in the right direction if you will. But I think part of our debt problems are due to fact of a change in political philosophy.

I think after America won WWII we began to think of ourselves as a global superpower. We were not content to mind our own affairs but began trying to support or lead the countries of the world.
The problem is that there is not enough money generated by the US economy to rule the world. Thus war after war after war and propping up our economy and the economies of the world, the USA is now penniless.

@Happyapricot -- I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree.

Now, certainly the leadership has become "otherized" and sees itself as different than the average joe and, indeed, as "superior" and "elite". And, insofar as politics go, they really ascribe to themselves being superior to everyone else... and there's also a little of that Devine Right to Rule in their mentalities. -- Where I see a huge difference though is in the elite/leadership positions (or caste, if you will), which is utterly disconnected from the common man. This is visible not only in government, but also within the corporate structures: just look at how illegals and H1Bs/OPTs are favored above Citizens.

And, to further illustrate the disconnect, consider Prop 8 and Prop 187 (?) --the CA State Constitutional amendments which (a) defined marriage as between a man and a woman, and (b) refused non-emergency public services to illegals-- both of these passed by CA Citizens, but both were shot down by federal judges.

Orangecrush wrote..
My personal gauge, is that outside of posters on this forum, any serious & thinking people that I interact with still subscribe to the notion that we can vote our way out of this mess. No matter how many times I try to show them the facts and send them articles (such as those posted on Market-Ticker and a few other rational websites), they believe that Trump, DeSantis, Tim Scott, or some other member of the clown-show can 'turn this thing around', "especially if we take the Senate next year". They believe that conservatives (does that term even mean anything in 2023?) are currently in control of the House and the Supreme Court and that once "we" take back the other two branches then victory is assured.

@Orangecrush -- I get what you're saying, but I disagree, at least in part: while it's certainly NOT going to be a singular person (e.g. Trump!!! or DeSantis!!!) I think there is enough "positions matter" that if we put Americans who would do Justly into positions of authority, we would see a vast improvement.

As to whether or not "the vote" matters is, I think, proportional to the people within government who "Do Justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with Jesus" -- not the other way around, with "OMG! We got the singular Trump in, now we don't have to do anything!"/"He makes the libs seethe!!!1!" style bullshit. -- I guess I'd TL;DR my stance as this: it's not the general that matters, so much as the NCOs, and it's not the NCOs so much as the troops.

Andrew wrote..
Calling it "The Most Recent Debt Target" is more truthful, but "Debt Ceiling" makes better headlines.
It always gets raised.
Ponder if you treated your house that way, you'd have...

@Andrew -- You are right.

You are right because the public debt is you being sold into slavery, you and your posterity, forever. You see, the public debt is guaranteed against your income, via the Income Tax, and that tax is non-optional: so you are being put on the hook for the ever more drunken spending. -- This is why they only ever increase the debt.
Tritumi 1k posts, incept 2008-11-29
2023-05-22 18:43:49

@Stoic, thanks for the HLM quote. Triggered my homeboy memory of beers in his old hangout.

And another HLM quote, unusually without acid:

Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told. Obedience is doing what is told regardless of what is right. HL Menken
Inline
Sonoran_monk 3k posts, incept 2021-08-16
2023-05-22 19:03:39

Remember that a government shutdown is just a free paid vacation for all of the government drones. It is also likely to lead to more concessions being passed (extra spending) since they will have the extra pressure of the breathless media stories about how terrible it is that the big ol' US of A can't even pay its bills like a real country.

Whatever happens we can't let them throw that rabbit into the briar patch! Think of the children!
Jack_crabb 16k posts, incept 2010-06-25
2023-05-22 19:44:24

The debt limit is only an issue when there is an R-controlled congress. Think about that for just a minute.

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Molon Labe
Where is Henry Bowman when you need him?
How many are willing to pledge this? We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor
Chromehill 1k posts, incept 2010-03-03
2023-05-22 21:44:48

McCarthy should demand that he will only negotiate with Biden, face-to-face. If not, no negotiations. Preferably, stream the negotiations, so we can all see how the sausage is getting maid.

Of course you have the stupid ass Republicans demanding cuts to SNAP which is chump change and a PR nightmage instead of demanding stop spending billions in Ukraine or getting comprehensive immigration reform like E-Verify is the law of the land (immigration problem solved).

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'Power, like the reproductive muscle, longs to be exercised, often without judgement or right' - Gerry Spence

"Above all, while defending our own vital interests, nuclear powers
Flappingeagle 5k posts, incept 2011-04-14
2023-05-22 22:03:34

Just remember, there are ONLY two types of US Government debts. Military Pensions and US Government bills/notes/bonds. EVERYTHING else is discretionary and that includes your medicaid, SS, medicare, defense, agency paper,...

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave
Bluto 2k posts, incept 2021-07-10
2023-05-22 22:03:57

I don't expect voting to "solve everything".

If the Republicans win in 2024, they WILL fix some things, they MIGHT fix other things, and they WILL lay a groundwork that increases the probability of fixing more things in the future.

Anyone who doubts this should sell their house in a red county in a red state and move to a blue city in a blue state. You can "not vote" there just as easily.

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"You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end -- which you can never afford to lose -- with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever
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