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 Another Piece of the Housing ScrewJob
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-01-23 11:39:12

I owned a linear-style townhouse in Chicago. One common wall between units and the roofs, driveways and such were also common space. Built new before I bought it.

The flashing on the roof was done incorrectly. About six months down the road there was a serious storm, it leaked and the water ran down into the stairwell inside my unit, severely damaging the ceiling. I shoved it up the builder's ass sideways and it was both fixed and the interior damage repaired. The board was still "builder-controlled" as there were remaining unsold units. Fortunately, because otherwise that common element -- the roof -- would have had to go through the board, reserves, etc.

Never again after that, said I. And I never have.

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The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.

Regrubun 1k posts, incept 2008-12-30
2023-01-23 11:45:51

The other way this goes bad that I've seen happen is that you have an investment group that owns several units. They start having cash flow issues and don't pay the assessment on their units. The HOA has to incur legal expenses against them to get the money which may or may not be there, put a lien on the property and force the sale to collect fees that are due.
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-01-23 11:45:19

The biggest issue in the Florida housing insurance market is the fraud. The insurance company is on the hook to the owner as the owner didn't commit the fraud and the regulators would never allow that to be excluded. Thus WHEN the alleged secondary barrier on the roof isn't really there, the shingles get stripped (which weren't properly nailed either) and it rains inside for 12 hours the insurance company gets boned for the damage that shouldn't have happened and the contractors who did it are out of business so they can't go after them.

Florida could put a hard stop on this by putting a nice, long statute of limitations on it and extending the liability to the persons working on it and the owners of any pass-through or corporate entity, making it impossible for them to evade civil responsibility for it. They could also extend the statute of limitations for fraud in that regard out to, say, 20 years with said responsibility and prosecution being criminal rather than civil. Then the roofer wouldn't even contemplate doing that shit because 10 years later, when the storm comes and he gets caught, he's prosecuted for criminal fraud in the amount of the dollars for each of the jobs he did that were exposed as being fraudulent, and never sees the outside of a prison cell again.

But of course they won't.

The same bottom line problem that exists with uninsured-motorist premiums in the state exists with homeowner's insurance. The person who gets boned isn't the one who did the illegal thing, their insurance has to cover it as a result, and the government never, ever goes after the fraudster and locks them up. IF THEY DID that shit would stop instantly.

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The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.

Jdough 229 posts, incept 2012-05-04
2023-01-23 12:27:00

The same issue exists in my area with pool builders. There are many shoddy ones and they constantly go out of business and re-open under a new LLC to avoid fixing their busted installs or in some cases their never completed work. I do know of one case personally where a homeowner was able to get a judge to toss out LLC protections for a contractor who tried that though. Not sure if that's a common outcome or not in Texas.

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America is a third world country with iPhones - Anonymous
Wayiwalk 623 posts, incept 2016-11-09
2023-01-23 12:27:09

The problem is more obvious in Florida especially after a collapse and of course you probably don't have to look too hard to find other buildings with cracked concrete and rusty stains coming from out of them but really this is a nationwide issue where we're not putting the money aside to fix things in the future.

But folks on this board are all here because we know that.

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The Lockdowns Will Continue Until the Morale Improves!

I keep thinking, "it can't get any worse" and then it does!
Workerbee23 197 posts, incept 2021-09-15
2023-01-23 12:27:16

Yep, I sure do appreciate my insurance premiums going up because other people are getting away with fraud and/or rank stupidity.

Printlife 228 posts, incept 2018-05-22
2023-01-23 12:27:32

Following Ian we found eight of our shingles in our yard. That small section had just been replaced when we bought the place in 2021. And noticed a small bit of laziness/fraud, the shingles had the plastic film on the tar still in place. Why would you climb up 30 feet and put in replacement shingles and not remove the film to activate the adhesive?

Guess I need to monitor the next installation and ask to be handed the plastic afterwards. All that labor and risk and the job was done wrong. Did the roofer expect to get the follow on?

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Vaccination required? Not if we leave.
Now in Florida, heart rate dropping, nicer people
Thegreatunwashed 273 posts, incept 2021-09-13
2023-01-23 12:32:48

I think I'd rather be homeless than own a condo, townhouse or be part of any community that required any type of homeowner committee. Then again, I can barely tolerate living under any type of government whatsoever.

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I will have NO survivor's guilt, except a bit of shame for all my Schadenfreude.
Egallred 73 posts, incept 2020-08-27
2023-01-23 13:45:00

@Printlife it appears that Roman concrete actually had self-repair properties. An interesting article on it here

https://techxplore.com/news/2023-01-ridd....
Redjack 1k posts, incept 2018-01-29
2023-01-23 13:45:14

Printlife

That is often done on purpose.

Repeat business.

My last roof the contractor DID remove the little strip, much to the dismay of my neighbors who found the strips all over the place.

But the has been through three derecho events. Getting a bit long in the tooth, but holding up well.
Nocomment 46 posts, incept 2019-09-04
2023-01-23 13:45:21

An article easily expandable to military hardware, civilizations, and so forth and so on.
Superdude 1k posts, incept 2009-06-16
2023-01-23 13:45:27

In Matthew 7, Jesus said everyone who hears his words and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. Then he went on to say everyone who hears his words and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand (Matthew 7:24-26).

TLDR: Jesus (a carpenter) said don't build on sand fool!
Nocomment 46 posts, incept 2019-09-04
2023-01-23 13:45:32

https://mathoverflow.net/

The best answers are voted up and rise to the top.

Add weighted voting.

Putting in a request that Karl create a new website,
not to supersede the ticker, but to experiment in one,
one, one, long, long, longest thread, usefulness of.

As in,

Dad
claims that
library science
is the foundation
of all sciences just
as math is the key and
we will survive or founder, depending
on how well the librarians do their jobs.
Librarians didn't look glamorous to me but
maybe Dad had hit on a not very obvious truth.
Robert A. Heinlein, Have Spacesuit, will Travel

One might start with how to recover from a
USA civil war.

Best get a move on.



Whitehat 11k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-01-23 13:45:42

This brings back memories of my gratefully long gone career. Saw these issues over and over again. Only difference was my firm would refuse to work for associations who would not allow things to be run properly. Want to know how much scienter was involved in all of the cases which i evaluated? When counsel for the board wants one to sign confidentiality agreements after a scathing report is issued. They know what they are doing.

Interestingly this parallels some of the same requirements to run a properly capitalized investment property properly which Karl and some might recall involved not a few lugnuts here who could not get it, amongst of course the aspiring investment maven crowd, funny that.

Speaking of this, there is an angle why they are concerned for the loserlord and its derivative the AirBnB absentee host. Probably no one thought of it. In many cases the AirBnB crowd goes for older, tired properties in places which are the same. Usually what happens is that it is an estate liquidation. What this often yields is a unit with older but serviceable furnishings and housewares in place. A little sprucing up and details, and it is perfect for the use in their eyes. These folks come in heavily levered only balanced by the unit being an older installation and thus cheaper. Similar are the landlords.

Most people do not realize that a single unit residence whether is be a condo, SFR or townhome is the absolute worst RE investment as a rental, with or without financing. Key reason is that it is impossible to factor a vacancy rate. There is no way to build a buffer for unplanned events.

The loserlord model is that people find tired things, often in down markets and figure that even crap goes up in RE booms or that there are so many tiers of residents excluded from home ownership that they will accept lower rental conditions and higher housing costs from said. AirBnB became preferable to this as there are less relationship failure issues and more guaranteed payment without long term tenant investments. With the rating system and the visitors having higher incomes, this was seen as the better model. However, neither side is prepared for one thing, the latter even less, that a major repair and constant reasonable maintenance eats nearly all profits and always occur. In the latter AirBnB, there is even less realization that this is a possibility.

What the various interest in the Landlord and AirBnB subset in Fl fear is that investment money will stop flowing into places which cannot free-market sell which will make any PUD or building ultimately deteriorate as a marketable entity. This is a death spiral. Further, instantly a lot of properties become upside down and have very low recovery values once the owners with financing walk away. AirBnB took a lot of older and marginal attraction areas and repurposed them in a kind of revival. This instantly goes to shit.

Everyone not running things properly depends ultimately on one big fucking thing, over and over again, another RE bubble pushing prices above what they were. This means that the no-reserve crowd, improperly capitalized crowd, et al all follow the model of borrowing for "unforeseen" events and can liquidate out of the uneconomic payments when out-of-the-sky falls the owner occupants who amazingly now want these places. Perhaps the next investor class is to convert them to very high end rentals. Yea, right on the latter, however the first has been assumed and did happen quite a lot over the past decades to bailout morons.

I have a general theory on our bubble economy as to the types and mentality and why we are forced into tolerating certain things which are uneconomic. Must test it with Karl before i use it in a discussion here mostly to refine it.

Suffice to say that everyone kind of knows the deal with these properties. People move into improperly run HOAs all of the time, figuring that rising property values they will get out before it is bad or the great pool of money in the sky will fix it ultimately, related to my general theory. Our real problem is one of mobility and leisure.

These two things are relatively recent in our history. People no longer purchase things with the intention that "this is it," or "this is all that i will ever have." The new mentality almost demands from the system that there be a way to get out and move on. We pay for this way. Add in the notion of middle-age or older folks having second residences or retiring away from their primary life residence is extremely new for the middle and working classes. This transient nature means that people think not in terms of eating their own cooking (how their neighborhoods are run and the places they live kept for the long term) but how much they can cash out or get cashflow.

This mentality leads to things like this and any other actual or future slums which you see around you. Yes, i truly expect that in the next three decades or less once very nice HOAs, PUDs, condo associations constructed over the past four decades will in concert with their immediate neighbors as the turn in one affects all BECOME ghettos if not completely gutted and vacant shells. The spiral starts slowly as lower grade things occur such as welfare housing, shutting down of amenities, deferred cosmetic stuff, lingering major issues then it starts slowly, and like the saying goes, then

ALL AT ONCE.

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smiley Je souhaite

Quod tu es, ego fui, quod ego sum, tu eris
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-01-23 14:08:40

@Redjack and @Printlife - If you look at the actual installation instructions from the shingle manufacturers they will specify that removing that strip is not necessary. The reason its there in the first place is that if it isn't the pack of shingles sitting on the roof or outdoors before installation could bond to each other as a brick and become impossible to separate and install. When stacked on top of each other the strips all align on top of one another but of course that's not how they're installed.

https://www.gaf.com/en-us/document-libra....

What IS important is that the strip MUST NOT adhere to the TOP of a shingle when the pack is taken apart to install. If it does you MUST remove it; the TOP "non-granular" adhesive area on each shingle MUST be exposed.

In non-high-wind areas, they're right -- indeed, they are frequently right EVEN IN high wind areas. That strip is on the BOTTOM. The top is not protected and THAT is what bonds (to the shingle above it) when the roof gets hot the first time. The proper place for the nails also is important; it has to be in the "common bond" area for dual-layer (most architectural design) shingles; this zone is always marked in some way.

Removing the strip it doesn't hurt, doesn't void the warranty and MIGHT help a bit. But the lack of doing so isn't why the shingles failed to bond. They were either (1) not installed correctly and thus never sealed to each other or (2) were done when it was cold and it never got hot before the wind load was applied. The second doesn't appear to be the factor here (at least I'm assuming not.) This is a REAL PROBLEM, by the way, in FAR northern areas as the roof has to get HOT before that the courses will bond to each other. Until they do they're all independent pieces and can easily get stripped by high winds.

The other thing that does it is the starter at the bottom. If that's improperly done then the entire pack upward from the bottom can be lifted and stripped.

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The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
Printlife 228 posts, incept 2018-05-22
2023-01-23 14:47:21

Thanks Karl! I just went out and examined the failed shingles. Sure enough, the plastic strip is not in the area that should be bonded, it is above the sanded areas. The active tar is bonded between each shingle.

Each shingle has a widened hole where it pulled away from the nail. Perhaps that worked in the wind until it could come off.

Yeah, no worries about my roof having gotten hot enough.

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Vaccination required? Not if we leave.
Now in Florida, heart rate dropping, nicer people
Step55 222 posts, incept 2009-02-27
2023-01-23 16:19:20

I've shingled a few roofs in my day and never pulled the strip. As tg stated it is only provided to prevent sticking together in the package. In high wind areas 2 more nails should be used per shingle for a total of 6. Also in cooler areas a north facing steep roof may not receive enough sunlight to allow the tar to stick. This is also true with heavy evergreen tree shade.
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-01-23 16:21:21

@Printlife that was probably improperly-nailed (not deep enough.)

If you use a nailgun to do it you have to be careful. If the nail is proud it will work and come free, if its indented materially it weakens the material and will go through.

When I redid my gazebo (full strip, replace the decking, felt then shingles right after I did it we had a 60kt thunderstorm come through. It hadn't bonded yet and I watched in horror as bunch of them were lifting. NONE came off, and a week or so later it had gotten hot enough to bond. All was well. But man, that got my attention....

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The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
Metalqueen 241 posts, incept 2021-09-10
2023-01-23 16:46:44

AirBNB owners can cry me a river and eat a bag of dicks.

All condo associations are required to provide condominium documents which include a review period during which the prospective buyer can back out without penalty if they do not like what they see. I looked the requirements for Florida and the statute says:

Quote:
By state law, Florida has a 3 day review period for condo purchasers. A condo might be a condominium, a townhome, carriage home or other attached unit or even a detached single family home.


How many potential buyers actually bother to read the documents, or better yet get an attorney or someone else knowledgeable about such things to review them, particular in regards to reserves?

This law seems quite reasonable, and the whining about it speaks to a failure to have exercised due diligence. Too bad so sad. smiley
Hobbled 239 posts, incept 2011-02-09
2023-01-23 17:18:43

So, wifey and I are renting our first AirBNB home for daughters wedding. Can sleep 10 so economical for my other 4 kids and spouses. But I have wondered about their liability and responsibility to me - I hope AirBNB is a tight ship in that regard. As much as I generally hate overstepping red tape, rentals and apartments and condos are a different matter and I don't want to be in a building where management makes money hand over fist and puts zip into reasonable upkeep and replacement making my rental a hazard. I want them to make money cuz I like making money on my business. These condo owners should be doing that kind of stuff for everyones benefit and safety. THey need to suck it up and they in conjunction also need to keep those boards under tight watch as to what they are doing with the upkeep money. THat is the price of multi-unit dwelling spaces. I assume the boards should be financially and legally bound to these issues? It should not just be a token position for busy bodies and buttinskies.
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-01-23 17:19:50

smiley

You mean like when you get stuck up in your AirBnB? Or worse get shot?

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The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
Moconserv 466 posts, incept 2013-02-13
2023-01-23 17:53:29

Speaking of.... where is Frat?

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Embrace the suck.
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-01-23 17:54:15

He's busy heard from him the other day.

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The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
K5555 117 posts, incept 2021-04-18
2023-01-23 18:12:27

Perhaps Surfisde used beach sand in the concrete mixture to save money. There was an article that I cannot find now with that supposition.
Quote:
To cut costs, builders often use unwashed sea sand to make concrete. Those grains are cheaper, but they are coated with salt that dangerously corrodes rebar.

This is definitely not my area of expertise, but, basalt rebar apparently does not suffer from the same deterioration as steel rebar.
https://www.wired.com/story/floridas-con....
https://www.basalt-usa.com/

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Fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark and it is starting to rain.
Whitehat 11k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-01-23 22:14:16

That is completely wrong. The concrete supplier would never use beach sand as the mix would fail in setup and never pass the spot checks. Would crack in just a few years. Sand must be washed thoroughly to remove all salts, organics and contamination.

Regarding the shingles, nail guns suck. It is very difficult to set the fastener properly, and the best holding stock is still hand nailed fasteners. Every shingle roof that i have ever had was hand nailed, and never lost a shingle or had a leak.

One problem is the Chinese shit stainless nails. They are a low grade and my roofer has seen the heads corrode right off in NYC and NJ. Now add in some salt in the air such as in Fl.

Another factor is what is the weight of the shingles. Are the property owners, their builders and contractors cheaping out with lightweight shit. It makes a difference in holding onto the fastener.

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smiley Je souhaite

Quod tu es, ego fui, quod ego sum, tu eris

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