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 Putin's Gauntlet
3-market-thinker 47 posts, incept 2022-02-06
2022-09-22 13:57:51

This is a very complex situation and is getting more messy by the day.

Too many questions and not enough answers.

I have seen articles today claiming the Ukrainian government are threatening people in the Donbas who vote in the referendum.

Is that a sign that the Ukrainian administration knows how the people there feels?

I have read a lot and seen videos from people in the Donbas on what the Ukrainian government have supposed to have done there since 2014.

It does not hold them in a positive light and I am being diplomatic on the topic.

I think there is a lot more going on than what people are led to believe.

I will say this.

Western powers would prefer a weak Russia as opposed to an independent, thriving economy especially as the West is in decline.

Russia obviously has a lot of natural resources which some American corporations have tried to exploit at the beginning of the century and got expelled by the Putin administration.

Putin has a PHD in international law so the referendum will probably be legal.

I don't think they wanted to do it in these circumstances but due to the West sending weapons to Ukraine it has forced them to change their tactics and go down another road to liberate the Donbas.

It's possible we are on the verge of World War 3.

I can't see the degenerate western powers changing course and the Russians are now committed to their objective so unless Russia does something drastic this is going to get drawn out over a long period and cost lives, money and resources on both sides.

Bad times indeed.
Poorsaver 492 posts, incept 2008-05-20
2022-09-22 14:44:52

Most of this is way above my paygrade, but looking at this simplistically its just like the Covid mess. They know theyre wrong and have done harms, but wont ever admit it. Instead just double down to create the illusion they have it under control.

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"I'm going to need a hacksaw"----Jack Bauer
"You can get killed walking your doggie!"----Vincent Hanna
Heartlander 2k posts, incept 2021-02-25
2022-09-22 14:58:57

Quote:
The Kiev regime threatened citizens with jailtime for just accepting Russian humanitarian aid.

Oh, it is much worse than that. The Nazi bastards (and yes, these particular battle groups were/are out-and-proud, bona fide Nazis) have SLAUGHTERED civilians who accepted food, water and first aid supplies from Russian troops. That is what happened at Bucha. Which the filthy Ukrainian PR machine turned around and blamed on Russia. And which Western audiences, made gullible by decades of instilled Russophobia, eagerly lapped up.

Sick, sick, sick. And demonically evil.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jQSTHvD2z1....
Voyager 89 posts, incept 2021-12-02
2022-09-22 16:29:40

If the West was serious about ending the war in Ukraine, they'd be turning on the oil and gas pumps.

They aren't, so they aren't.

Without that, if feels like arguing over the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the votes and embargos and arms shipments is like arguing the proper rules of order when your debate partner is running around the room pouring lighter fluid all over the podium.
Jfms99 520 posts, incept 2009-10-06
2022-09-22 16:29:53

I would like to point out that since the CIA was established, and was run by Allan Dulles ,the agency in that time has toppled at least 70 governments in the world by Covert Operations, which for the most part should never have happened.

I suggest those interested read the two books written by Col. Fletcher Prouty on this and more as he was there and his books are invaluable on this .
Inline
Sancho 118 posts, incept 2013-12-06
2022-09-22 16:30:01

Just wondering about the possibility of non nuclear escalation and trying to make sense of the current policies. The people in power may be justly assigned a lot of negative adjectives. Stupid is not one of them.

How long until the United States, instead of a classic draft, offer a "path to citizenship" to the fighting age illegals being allowed into the country, while starting a mass deportation for those who refuse.

Nobody will cry a drop for them apart from their immediate family. Some hundred thousand of perfect cannon fodder.

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Life is Rock and Roll
A stairway to Heaven,
and an highway to hell
Jesjohn94 803 posts, incept 2019-05-07
2022-09-22 16:30:12

That absolutely zero attempt at diplomacy has been made is utterly mind boggling to me. Russia is a global power in energy/raw materials and also has thousands of nuclear weapons. If you've never looked at a map Russia is geographically massive and covers 10 time zones. I don't think Russia has done well militarily but there is zero chance Ukraine can beat Russia. What good does a constant state of war/sanctions do anyone? The worse things go for Russia the bigger chance Putin is replaced by a real hard man. Then what will we do?
Ingar 385 posts, incept 2017-02-14
2022-09-22 16:30:22

We can lay the blame for the current problems in the Ukraine and all touched by it on the criminality of the likes of "Yats is our man" and "f**k the EU" Victoria Newland and her criminal neocon conspirators who long to impose a puppet government in Russia so that they might plunder the immense mineral and petroleum wealth of that country.

I believe that Russia will take the Black Sea coast and leave Ukraine a landlocked country. Poland may have designs on the western part of the Ukraine that was once theirs. The Ukraine might end up to be quite an abbreviated country. I'm sure that our rulers can find some excuse to keep the war in the Ukraine going to defend that deeeemocracy. We've seen a bipartisan stampede to shower billions in money and arms on the Ukraine in a manner that was formerly reserved exclusively for Israel.

There must be a lot of money to steal in the Ukraine.
Hstella 1k posts, incept 2009-08-18
2022-09-22 16:34:36

@3-market-thinker - the referenda took a lot of planning, this is nothing rushed. In all likelihood the timing was influenced by Russia's warm reception at the SCO in Samarkand. Btw, Samarkand is a beautiful old town, the heart of the silk road, with continuous habitation since the stone ages.

@Heartlander - I think the UK's outright refusal of Russia's demand for a UN investigation says everything we need to know about who was responsible for Bucha.
Dbigkahunna 382 posts, incept 2010-01-10
2022-09-22 16:47:05

Voyager, Putin understands the energy market. There is no spare capacity save for Russia. The United States cannot turn it on, because right now it is going as hard as it can due to the availability of materials, equipment and workers. That illusion about capped wells and all "They" have to do is turn the valves on is bullshit. KSA has some capacity, but we have screwed the pooch with them. Arabs tend to have a long memory.
How all this is going to play out in the next 3-6 months will be interesting. And as common people are concerned, there is nothing we can do about it.

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Blessed, Grateful and Living a Dream
Bzelbob 301 posts, incept 2021-09-12
2022-09-22 17:11:18

@Mannfm11
Quote:
This stuff all started when Putin closed the door to the Western criminals looting the country.

Yep. When you keep pissing outside a bear cave, eventually the bear gets angry.

Then you go back to your camping ground and the bear follows you.

The people of Ukraine probably wished they would have have stopped the dumb shits who irritated the bear.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes...


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"Threats are illogical. And payment is usually expensive." - Sarek of Vulcan
Edward.fish 333 posts, incept 2021-12-17
2022-09-22 18:23:06

Hapie wrote..
Ukraine is just a battle ground, like Afghanistan once was between USSR and USA.

@Hapie -- What's funny is that the Ukraine 'war' is three-parts grift, one-part "let's you and him fight", and one part virtue-signaling... what's interesting is to talk to people on the street and bring up the fact of the trillions given to Ukraine instead of US infrastructure/citizens. (And, of the military veterans I've talked with, exactly 0% have indicated desire to go fight boots-on-ground over there.)

Hstella wrote..
There is no talk of a draft at this time except in the west.

@Hstella -- That move would be incredibly unpopular.
(Indeed, to the point that I think if they did try that, we might see all the 'Aye'-voting politicians paying for it... physically.)

The disconnect that the leadership has shown with the common-man is such that "why don't you go fight / send your children to die?" would be a political killshot. I don't think you realize how badly morale was hit by losing Afghanistan, and this with the pushes for Ukraine/Russia (and Iran) conflicts? -- Yeah, pushing these would be a political suicide-vest.

Phils wrote..
President Putin has become a liability for Russia. He badly misread the social mood of Ukraine,
Europe, and the USA. He is in an unwinnable situation.

There is no workable recovery plan. He needs to be replaced.

@Phils -- That's ok: the US, UK, and EU are also in the unwinnable situation of having the political class pushing for war when essentially no-body wants it, having war-fatigue and the political-class pushing against EVERYTHING traditionally liberty-minded (US & UK)... to back down would be political egg-on-face (and an implicit "I was wrong") that they, in their arrogance, simply cannot abide.

The TL;DR here is that there's no real way to spin this as "We're the unquestionable good-guys!" despite how hard they're trying to push it as "OMG, it's another WWII!!1!"
Traelin0 463 posts, incept 2021-01-28
2022-09-22 18:23:46

Everything going on is exactly my primary concern with selling my orchard. Putin has been far, far, FAR more patient than I ever would've been. Yet there is a level of mental jiu-jitsu about him that knows he can pull the nail in the Western coffin when the thermostats are ready to be turned up in Europe.

To list my property, or not to list. That is the prevailing question this weekend., because we've done everything we need to in order flip the switch.
Traelin0 463 posts, incept 2021-01-28
2022-09-22 18:24:27

Quote:
The other piece of the narrative I don't buy is that if the West allows Putin to win in Ukraine, then he will keep moving west into Europe. Not buying it.

Correct, it's a false narrative based on bloated Euro egos. Temujin determined there was nothing but disease to take away from anything west of Kiev. What would Putin conquer? A bunch of enviro-whackos and North African trash?
Ronniemcghee 276 posts, incept 2012-07-28
2022-09-22 18:24:36

Ukraine is going to have to sue for peace with Russia before this conflict ends. That usually happens after carpet bombing and famine and infections kick in.
NATO can keep up the arms funneling longer than Russia can keep up losing personnel and resources.
The only other option is a true nuclear red line within territories of hostility zones set forth by Putin; the zones that Russia has taken and still hold.
People who believe this proxy war can continue for 4 to 5 years are mistaken IMO. This is not the case of a Syria for example.
Putin is not going to let Ukraine drain it blood dry.
Voyager 89 posts, incept 2021-12-02
2022-09-22 18:45:01

@Dbigkahunna Keystone Pipeline? EastMed?

If there is no available reserve it is because the greenies keep taking crowbars to it, and are now pushing a huge wall of regulations down the pike that's going to shutter even more US gas production.

And all I see from the Euros is whinging that nothing can possibly be done, so they're just going to sit around and do nothing while the world burns.

Until they are doing something more than that, they are not serious. Saying they don't have a solution right now is no excuse.

If it takes 4 years to build a new pump head or coal plant even if you break ground right now, do you know what happens if you don't? In about a year, you still won't have power, and it will still take four years to build.

I'm just sick of people complaining that nothing can be done. There is a lot that can be attempted, but too many of the nominal leaders of the western world would rather sit in the dark and bitch. (Or more likely have us sit in the dark while they *Message: I care* at us, but that's a different issue...)

They are frauds, fools or both.
Hstella 1k posts, incept 2009-08-18
2022-09-22 20:26:03

@Edward.fish - what I meant was that there is no discussion in Russia of a draft. The west is insisting that Russia is going to draft everyone. Of course, I read that Ukraine increased the draft age to 70 for men and has started drafting women in certain professions for support roles. Ukraine has gone through multiple rounds of drafts, whereas Russia's "act of desperation" is to call up trained reserves - just like the US does. It will probably take a couple of months to mobilize them fully, and they will likely be used to backfill positions in the Russian army maintaining security and logistics to free up the regular duty soldiers.

Russia will take Odessa for sure, but I think he'd be just as happy to unload Lviv and Kiev onto their neighbors - split up the problems. Once the remainder of Ukraine is cut off from the water, they are done for, just like Serbia was. There's just no point in Russia taking over the baltics, much less Europe. Lots of headache, no real profit. The Baltics are with the EU for economic reasons. They are much poorer, and have lost population due to economic immigration. And if Russia does well economically, the brain drain from the Baltics will go east instead of west.

Also, I can't remember where I saw the photos of Ukraine's forest in the summer vs the winter. Russia doesn't need agent orange to spot the enemy when general winter comes. They won't have anywhere to hide.
Dingleberry 498 posts, incept 2011-11-06
2022-09-22 20:26:11

There is no appetite for war in the west, so forget it.

This nation is nowhere close to the nation it was 20 years ago, and certainly not 40 years or more.

I saw what happened when 9/11 went down. Were folks lining up to join and fight?

FUCK. NO.

In fact a lot of those who wanted to join the military for college and whatnot took a pass.

And this is AFTER we suffered Pearl Harbor part two.

In WW2, many young men committed actual suicide if they could not join the military for whatever reason.

You won't find anything close to that today. There will be no draft. There will be no war. Our population currently has at most around 20% of its youth even eligible to join. Let that sink in. That is how far and fast we have fallen as a nation. And Europe is even worse. They have extremely limited offensive capabilities, even collectively.

In reading the polls FWIW, the left is all for the "current thing" as their custom, while the right does not want to get involved over in that corrupt shit hole.

So if push comes to shove.....who do you think will fight Russia? Trannys? Hood rats? Karens? Soccer moms?

This is and will remain a fight from afar using mercenaries and precision weapons, along with endless Ukrainian cannon fodder. Unless someone fucks up and nukes start to drop.

Until the Russians get serious (even now they aren't....a partial mobilization is still partial)...this charade is going to continue. Putin makes bank selling energy at increasingly higher prices, he is salivating at this winter.....and the MIC gets their payday. And of course the Big Guy gets his 10%.

When Russia really wants this shit to end, it will end.

80% of the world's population is either neutral or supportive of Russia.

Good luck with those sanctions.

Kontrolkaos 140 posts, incept 2021-09-13
2022-09-22 20:27:01

Some points:
It's best that Putin stays where he is. Chances are very good it would be a hard liner replacing him who would be much worse and much less patient. Putin has already had to do a lot to keep this faction at bay.

Serbia's president was at the UN today speaking out about the double standard shown by NATO citing "territorial integrity" to support Ukraine while bombing Serbia for wanting the same back in the late 1990's. But crickets from the mainstream press. One has to go over to RT to find this story.

There have been predictions out there about global cooling. Well the last few winters have surely been cold enough as they were. Get another winter like that and the EU will be on its knees. Seems that is what the neocons and their lackeys want. How long before the people respond?
Evergreen 184 posts, incept 2021-12-26
2022-09-22 20:27:07

Heartlander,

At your link, study the full language expressed at 6:35-6:50.
Evergreen 184 posts, incept 2021-12-26
2022-09-22 20:27:50

Heartlander,

Again, your link: 16:01-16:26. ???
Idiom 304 posts, incept 2015-02-20
2022-09-22 20:28:04

Lol the United States is founded on the Doctrine of Discovery, under which non-christian peoples have no property rights, allowing for colonization. Prior to which Europeans already recognized such activity as sinful.

The United States is on really shaky ground regarding its existence and always has been.

That said, Putin should have stopped the invasion with the first two territories and waited for the referendums. The west was entirely out played.

For about six hours then he went and invaded the whole fucking thing.

The Russian speaking people in Poland are crying out to Putin for liberation!
Throughput 109 posts, incept 2021-09-21
2022-09-22 20:40:05

The decision by Putin to now escalate the SMO should give everyone pause.
Anyone here remember what happened twenty years ago in Moscow?
Chechen terrorists took a few hundred people hostage at a theater.
Long story short, after a few days, the decision was made to bring the hostage situation to an end.
How, you may ask?
The special forces gassed the theater. This killed the terrorists and the hostages alike.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_the....

Edward.fish 333 posts, incept 2021-12-17
2022-09-22 21:25:47

Jfms99 wrote..
I would like to point out that since the CIA was established, and was run by Allan Dulles ,the agency in that time has toppled at least 70 governments in the world by Covert Operations, which for the most part should never have happened.

I suggest those interested read the two books written by Col. Fletcher Prouty on this and more as he was there and his books are invaluable on this.

@Jfms99 -- Thank you for the recommendations.

I do wonder though... how many operations has the CIA done on the US.
I seem to recall stories of a President talking about busting them up and scattering the ashes to the wind... before he was assassinated.

Hstella wrote..
@Edward.fish - what I meant was that there is no discussion in Russia of a draft. The west is insisting that Russia is going to draft everyone. Of course, I read that Ukraine increased the draft age to 70 for men and has started drafting women in certain professions for support roles. Ukraine has gone through multiple rounds of drafts, whereas Russia's "act of desperation" is to call up trained reserves - just like the US does. It will probably take a couple of months to mobilize them fully, and they will likely be used to backfill positions in the Russian army maintaining security and logistics to free up the regular duty soldiers.

@Hstella -- Ah! That makes sense... though given how 'our' "elites" seem to be intentionally pushing buttons I stand by my remarks about a draft here.

Ronniemcghee 276 posts, incept 2012-07-28
2022-09-22 21:30:22

@Throughput ~
I concur. Putin is not going to allow Ukraine with never ending NATO arms shipments to continue to pound personnel and resources they really don't have to sustain. Its just personal opinion though.
Its either level some major cities in the Ukraine and sue for peace or draw a red line around their gains and threaten large explosions if crossed.
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