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2022-07-30 20:08 by Karl Denninger
in International , 612 references Ignore this thread
Time to CUT OFF China
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I have to give Twitter credit for this: The banned the Chinese mouthpiece who basically threatened to shoot down Pelosi's plane if she attempted to land in Taiwan and forced him to delete the tweet in order to unlock his account.

One thing you have to understand about that account however: Everything that comes from that keyboard is actual Chinese government policy.  It is not some rando in China shooting off his mouth.  It may as well be Xi on that keyboard.

We're well past the time to tell these people we're bringing our production and IP home.  We're going to do it, we're going to start now, and if there is any interference, theft or supply disruptions engineered as a result we're going to seize Treasuries and the property of any Chinese firm or national in the United States and its possessions, at our option and with our own list of priorities on a dollar for dollar liquidated damages basis.

If firms that sell into the US decide to refuse they get delisted on our exchanges and hit with tariffs for every single dollar avoided by not building goods and providing services here.  No exceptions, no apologies.

Oh, I get the love of all things "cheaper" while the entire basis of that is in fact either slavery or environmental damnation, never mind intellectual property theft and of course thuggery.

We can co-exist in a world with nations like this.  Witness North Korea.

But we can never allow ourselves to become, or remain dependent on them.  Ever.

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Crossthread 11k posts, incept 2007-09-04
2022-07-30 20:42:51

Quote:
But we can never allow ourselves to become, or remain dependent on them. Ever.


Well, Hells Bells @Tickerguy..

I think We're about 35~40 years Too Late for that..
Everything from Land, Manufacturing, Medicines, Food Production, even those chicken Nuggets American Boobis craves, comes from CHI NAH..
Even Our freaking Pet food..

I've been (prescribed) certain Pain Meds.. They are NO-WHERE to be had, because, they are Manufactured in, you know where.

I saw that writing loooong ago, When, Texas Insturments & American Crane & American Gypsum, numerous textile Mills, pulled up stakes here, Wilmington voted to have CHI-NAH as a "Sister City, all We've gained from that is.. Loss of Manufacturing & Job Losses..

The ONLY WAY outta this, Off-hand, that I can think of, besides what you mention..
Is for the USA go on WAR-TIME footing a-la WWII, bring JOBS & production back home..

----------
Everyone of us are ignorant, its just we specialize our ignorance on different subjects.

The only walls that will confine you are the ones that you build yourself

The 3.5% rule refers to the claim that no government has withstood a challenge of 3.5%of their population mobilized against it during a peak event.
Ronniemcghee 262 posts, incept 2012-07-28
2022-07-30 20:47:51

Does seem we have reached peak 'put up or shut up' time regarding Taiwan for both sides.

If there are too many jets with random 'flight plans' then the pilot of Pelosi's plane may be told to abort a landing attempt. China didn't actually 'block' her but foolishly made it too dangerous.

Lodge the complaint and another day, another pull of the Chinese leash on Biden.

If Pelosi does land, expect within a week for China's war gaming scenarios to shift significantly. Xi is not going to lose the world stage of authority to some drunk named Nancy. Don't rule out embargoes of differing types. She would be the highest ranking US official to visit since the 90s.

One scenario ~ Her iteanrry is too full this time to fit in Taiwan.

Thoughts on getting out from under China's boot politically, financially, and economically when we allowed ourselves to be the gum under their shoe?

What do you do when you HAVE to s*** out a mega load but physically CAN'T do it? Something has to give! Shoot yourself in the head?

What does DeSantipus have to say re: China? He's got his national tentacles stretched out for a run at the White Hosue....

Which national leader is talking tough on China but also walks the talk? Please don't say Trump. It's too early to start drinking.

` From afar

ps. I don't see any increased air activity where I'm at. Meaning, nothing serious and all a pony show.

roger and out.





Aveteam 196 posts, incept 2010-06-26
2022-07-30 21:47:39

And a damn good place to start, should the Chinese decide to get cute, would be to seize every acre of farmland and any other real estate these bastards have bought.

While I agree with the previous poster that we're about 40 years late, better late than never.

Biden should be in the gallows for selling off our strategic oil reserves to these assholes.

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"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie"

- Justice Antonin Scalia
Winston2020 406 posts, incept 2020-03-29
2022-07-30 21:47:44

Unrestricted Warfare: China's Master Plan to Destroy America - translated from Chinese - November 10, 2015 - by Qiao Liang (retired Major General in the People's Liberation Army Air Force), Wang Xiangsui (retired senior Colonel in the People's Liberation Army)

------------

Stealth War: How China Took Over While America's Elite Slept - October 1, 2019 - by Robert Spalding (retired USAF Brigadier General, former U.S. Senior Defense Official and Defense Attach to China and Senior Director for Strategic Planning, National Security Council)

They weren't "sleeping" of course.

------------

The Hundred-Year Marathon: China's Secret Strategy to Replace America as the Global Superpower
by Michael Pillsbury - Mar 15, 2016

It wasn't and isn't a "secret." The author was one of the major guys closely involved with the Kissinger/Nixon opening with China who now deeply regrets that.

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The Chicoms have simply proved the great truth about what happens when BOUGHT governments don't prevent it:

"A capitalist will sell you the rope you hang him with." - Communist adage heard in various forms being the fundamental message of a much longer Vladimir Lenin quote

------------

Our government is hopelessly BOUGHT and isn't going to reform anything substantial until, at best, it's far too late which it probably already is.

Of course, people other than SHEEP can do some things like I do to try to force the issue and buy only what they absolutely need if it says, as most everything does, Made in China on it.

For example, no new Chicom-made smart phone to replace one that still works, no new laptop to replace one that still works, etc.

Of course, since we live in hedonistic, games and circuses addicted idiocracy, that'll never catch on...
Eoinw 103 posts, incept 2021-07-14
2022-07-30 21:47:54

I'm no fan of the CCP, however their greatest crimes are against their own citizens. For westerners to hate China, I find that to be misdirected anger. It was our own governments and parasitic corporations who are responsible for giving everything to China. Blaming the CCP for taking it all, is blaming them for being smart.

Bring everything home? Absolutely! We're all going to have to go local to survive the upcoming economic collapse. Our governments and corporations will work against us at every turn. They are the cancer which has to go. Our fight is with them, not the Chinese or the Russians.
Shadowmask 3k posts, incept 2021-05-24
2022-07-30 21:48:39

Cutting China off would take a while to buff out. And it's absolutely essential we do so.
Neal 182 posts, incept 2014-01-09
2022-07-30 22:01:57

Not sure how you are going to block or tariff stuff from China. Lots of stuff already sent from China to other countries where anything ranging from outright fraud (sewing Made in Vietnam labels in to clothes sent to Vietnam for reexport to the US) to genuine production of goods ( high chance clothes sent to the US from most countries use Chinese inputs like bolts of cloth to buttons in their manufacture).
Once worked in a plastics factory and the plastic granules were all imported in bulk bags. How do you know if your Made in USA plastic container doesnt contain plastic from China? How do you know if that plastic doesnt include recycled plastics from chemical drums or medical waste? Can you trust anything imported not to have fraudulent provenance?
Also Id hold back on targeting the wealth of any Chinese national. Start with the party members first and leave the dissidents out of it.
Ingar 359 posts, incept 2017-02-14
2022-07-31 08:26:50

I visited a friend in the LA area in 1988 and saw a closed Mattel factory that had occupied a large city block. A woman who worked there told that the manufacturing was being done in a new factory in China. She said that the factory workers were paid 25 cents per day plus meals and medical care. I doubt that Mattel passed any of the savings from their Chinese made crap to American consumers.

I avoid buying Chinese goods as much as possible. Try buying hardware or light bulbs made in the USA. I have even seen Chinese processed frozen fish sold in US military commissaries. It is astounding how much of what we buy comes from China.

Having a hollowed-out manufacturing base and a financialized economy is a national security risk.
Cwatson1982 224 posts, incept 2017-05-07
2022-07-31 08:27:08

No one in power will be willing to take the pain necessary to do so quickly imho and by quickly I mean 10+ years.

We don't even make the things necessary to make the things to do it. You can't even get an air compressor that isn't reliant on China in some fashion. Assembled here? Sure..from Chinese parts, cast in China from iron produced there. Same for practically all electronics equipment. If it's not fully made there, some critical part or resource is.

It's sad..but I fully believe China could halt all exports to US and allies, including raw mats + components that end up there...and we would be on fire within 6 months.

In a scarcity scenario (war) service/consumption based economies are the bitches of resource gathering/production economies because they can not sustain basic human needs at existing levels. Stuff > fiat

All for a little more profit
Gollum 2k posts, incept 2011-07-31
2022-07-31 08:27:31

I think China has to be looking at the economic end of things in the West/Russia conflict and seeing that they can win the long economic war with us even if they do have setbacks on the actual battlefield. The west is falling apart over lack of just two products (oil and gas), can you imagine how badly wed do if we couldnt get everything from medications like antibiotics to microchips to car parts to batteries? I agree with Tickerguy 100% that its far past time to decouple from them but I guarantee its going to hurt like hell.
Mannfm11 8k posts, incept 2009-02-28
2022-07-31 08:27:44

I'm still trying to figure out what the Chinese have that Pelosi is going to steal, in Taiwan. Years ago, Taiwan had more foreign reserves than any country on Earth. How much we going to send them?

You know, we have a Democrat on the House Intel committee who was sleeping with a spy. Frankenstein had an aid, supposedly a chaufer who was a spy. McConnell is married to the daughter of a Chinese shipping magnate. No telling Pelosi's ties to one or the other.

I can tell you how you stop this. Take credit cards away from most people. You create too much credit, it leaves the country. China blows in a month. This is what the US did in the 20's, piled up bad foreign debt financing exports. It also blows up Congress and DC and probably the banks. It might not be a good idea, but as long as the US emits too much credit, trade will come from somewhere else.

In the meantime, while we are jawboning China, we blew Europe to pieces. Russian oil is filling reserves in Asia instead of Europe. Biden is draining our reserve to hide how bad his policies are. If you want a vacation on the road, better take one. Rationing of oil is coming. Lets go straight to hell Brandon.

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Mannfm11 8k posts, incept 2009-02-28
2022-07-31 08:28:15

@Neal: If they are doing that, they are committing fraud. It is much cheaper to manufacture in Vietnam than China, so why take that route? There isn't much love lost between Vietnam and China to start..

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Kolya02 28 posts, incept 2021-08-20
2022-07-31 08:28:23

The red line on Russia RE Crimea and the Donbass was stupid, but KD wants one enforced on China RE Taiwan? Politically doesn't half of Taiwan want to reunite with China? Not following the logic on this one.
Kwwilson 82 posts, incept 2022-03-02
2022-07-31 08:28:30

@Neal-
I am not sure where you are, but I am in an area with a lot of the aforementioned wealth present and on display.
These are not the dissidents, they are the families of party members or supporters who are being safely (they hope) ensconced with generous wealth far in excess of the amounts which are permitted to be moved out of China. Thus, besides being our financial and ideological enemies, they are also criminals for violating Chinese, and in many cases North American laws for transfer of funds and money laundering.
I suspect that if the near future brings fourth turning type stress, then the governments wont be the only ones to be -seizing- real property here. Happy hunting.
Tritumi 823 posts, incept 2008-11-29
2022-07-31 08:28:45

Um, as likely the obverse is dead ahead.

Also, in the eternal spirit of the DNC playbook, a war is the best solution to projected electoral weakness.

If you've got 'em, might be time to smoke 'em.
Tickerguy 186k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2022-07-31 08:32:29

@Kolya02 - you obviously don't read for comprehension well. You may wish to improve that, as it will materially increase the odds of avoiding strikes or even a banhammer around here.

I don't give a flying fuck about Pelosi. I'd lift a toast if Xi stuck the Chinese version of a Sidewinder right through the middle of her airplane.

BUT: I ALSO don't give a flying fuck who are you in the world, freedom of navigation matters, and firing on an aircraft you KNOW is carrying a person who wishes to speak (and not munitions or other articles of war) is not what a "trading partner" does. You want to be a prick that's fine, but for us to SUPPORT IT is another matter. That I insist we refuse.

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The law of scoreboards is not subject to repeal.
Fuck around and find out.
New business: Karl's Guillotine sales and repair; you slice 'em, we dice 'em.

Whitehat 9k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2022-07-31 08:42:19

Part of the cure for this is wanting and needing less. Then Americans get to experience the loss of quality as items have slowly lost their ability to endure.

It spirals down. My house AC is a more basic system, easily fixable, major parts replaceable, efficient. My neighbor's heat pump shit, not at all, systems are a throwaway. He has gone through two in less time than the current life of my one.

Once realization of things like the above example, people will have to make do with less and cost of living will require doing less.

My dishwasher represents easy and cheap tech from China making too much of a process. Then again, it is no trouble to hand wash dishes.

How much have you become too much accustomed?

This from the person who just overhauled a twenty-three year old car. Twenty-three years from now, probably less, this will not be possible.

My AC until will probably still be working fine, neighbor will be on window units and fans if that.

Perhaps the frugal will be proven correct in our lifetimes.

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smiley Je souhaite
Whitehat 9k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2022-07-31 08:58:35

This is China's way of saying that they will do whatever they want. It is cultural. Seeing as being.

I also blame Americans themselves for the situation. We rode our booms and abandoned quality and elegant design. Lots of us said fuck you to American products for Japanese as we got sick of higher prices for shit and the attitude of fuck you and take it.

If we were at the quality of the Japanese when they came on the scene, we would not find ourselves here now.

First we lost industry, fooled ourselves that living with great products was to be assumed without personal capacity, and then got off on getting them cheaper.

Americans considered the Japanese their slaves in popular media reflecting national sentiment. Finding cheaper slaves was hubris which came back to bite. The 80s were a fraud, next era even bigger.

We have low education standards for a reason. Not a conspiracy as there was no reason to push ourselves to greater competency.

Now we have to start off as a third world country with first world tastes.

Who would like to take the baton from those of us saying this for decades?

Oh yea, all of our local graded on the curve scientists and engineers will have the answers. Those of us who did not need it are not going to pull the weight anymore in anything.

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smiley Je souhaite
Nashville 85 posts, incept 2018-02-27
2022-07-31 09:37:22

Everytime I walk into a Home Depot (and for the last 15+ years) I marvel at how much STUFF is hecho in China. Our little 19 inch Sharp (Japanese brand) TV that we've kept forever in our kitchen suddenly died. I took it apart yesterday and determined the problem is in the front end of the power unit, but its pointless to try to fix it. The PCB was stamped "made in China"!

Last night I ordered the 2022 replacement from Best Buy for $79. Cheap little 19" tv's are hard to locate! Picking it up today. Wanna bet where its made?

Reason: JPN not KOR
Pete01234 29 posts, incept 2019-09-23
2022-07-31 09:50:14

Completely agree, we should have cut off China at least a decade ago when it was abundantly clear they were blatantly stealing IP and refused to stop. It would certainly be a shit show here for a while as the general public figure out how to live without buying cheap shit at Walmart and amazon constantly. There is always a price to be paid for bad decisions, there is no pain free exit from the bad monetary and politicians decisions our 'leaders' have made. Sadly the right choices are never made, until no choices are left.
Whitehat 9k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2022-07-31 10:27:50

Left out something else.

Decade after fucking decade if not more often we have to bail out union shit time after time and many times the corporate scum under which they operate their scams.

Ever notice something? Take for example the large Ameri-shit auto manufacturers. They are the culmination of a lot of buy-up and consolidation of once smaller and independent concerns if not the outright closing of other small concerns. Britain had something similar, and our societies parallel in many regards.

This probably made sense even without monopolistic and other scam actions as economies of scale made sense with more expensive technologies and compliance.

Here is something which our current state of locking in behemoths of companies and labor disallows.

Hate Tesla for the bullshit and uneconomic idea, but another thing is apparent. On a significantly smaller scale the operation managed to meet all of the other standards and requirements for a road legal vehicle. Why? Technology which also helps offshore competition allows for less investment to design, model and test and create manufacturing processes. Much of this is computer driven and small scale machine works, something once unheard.

Large companies are less necessary to be able to afford to create new things and only hold position by playing political games. There is no doubt in my mind that a small concern led by our Karl could use his computer and technological skill to completely design and build a car and predict exactly how it will pass even crash testing before the first unit is built.

We have the technology to abandon certain once necessary economies of scale. The large concerns know this and would rather keep a dysfunctional manufacturing economy along with their unions to prevent the realization of this threat. It is openly discussed.

The Japanese and later the Chinese have proven adept at reverse engineering superior products and improving them using even older versions of the technology available to us now. The Chinese proved themselves so good at copying, fooling even engineers from original equipment manufacturers, that they were hired to produce these same items for said OEMs.

Most people have not seen something which i have. Some major and minor components for some of the fine automobiles from Japan which we all know and love were and still are manufactured in small neighborhood concerns, in many cases family businesses. Their land use zoning is a fascinating study in itself as it brings a lot of viable manufacturing right near and adjacent to where people have their families without pollution and ruin. Why cannot we do so here?

This has broad implications. It means that small concerns for many products of many types can be started across America.

Building our products overseas in slave conditions was a way of preventing a realization of the threat to their interest which can do as described above. By keeping everything under their "brands" they are the end of the funnel and keep their wealth by position having lost their competency and competitiveness. Functioning locally, they would have met this threat from an active workforce and economic activity which could have been steered by upstarts. By killing all or most of that associated with manufacturing on CONUS, there are less resources and functional things in place for an upstart to plugin. As it stands now, it is like building a city in the desert or jungle for that matter. Even the most basic has to be carried in somehow. This high bar keeps out what is a regular occurrence in Asia.

Here is a great example. Let's say that i want to go into business making great disposable razors for the people of Brooklyn, New York. Fair business model to start off, plenty of customer for an inexpensive product. Years ago, there were nearby steel mills where one could find small amounts of steel in what they would have probably considered noise. The society had machine tools everywhere, skilled labor who in retirement might like a few days to try something new. One could go on about all of the stuff being made and sold around. The point is that one could go through a phone book and eventually find everything he needed because there would have been so much going on. Now, it is find an empty building with a bare concrete floor and have to ship the near finished metal over from Asia along with everything else.

By destroying the local resources of functioning materials and manufacturing industries the once necessary behemoths postponed their ultimate deaths by remaining the brands of record. This is why they make products for different markets in different places often in plants in the middle of nowhere, sectioned into plants where it is simply assembly for parts which are cross border or cross oceans. No one place has everything in place. The excuse was that this ties together the world and none will want a war. The reason is that none has the economic resources locally for a complete product to compete with them.

In closing, yea i mean it, we are at the point in technology where small batch manufacturing can equal or exceed, including in cost to consumer, what once up to the early 90s (Asia earlier) required large concerns having the economy of scale. This is also broad from the small to the very large as in it could probably be applied to commercial jet-liners. Everyone is accustomed to large being necessary as they got used to corporate speed (slow) and security as in job.

Who is more innovative? A large concern which needs to sell tens of thousands of nearly the same design and model for close to a decade to make up for its costs, or the small operation profitable selling five thousand of something in a year or so or even much less while it is designing the next iteration of improvements.

The big concerns knew that this was coming for them having seen it in Asia long before and created a whole scam to solidify their positions at the cost of our local competency making it look like something else. It got so ingrained that i sincerely doubt the people taking part in it even recognize of what they are a part or even know the original mission.

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smiley Je souhaite
Onelegged 1k posts, incept 2009-11-13
2022-07-31 10:39:25

Fuck yes!

Better late than never.

Lets start today!!!!!

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All The News That Fits, We Print.

New York Times
Generalee 62 posts, incept 2011-04-30
2022-07-31 12:13:12

I'm in. Let's make an improved razor blade and put Gillete(men haters) in the trash bin where they belong. The sensor line was given to us as college freshmen in say 1989. Why should we pay the current insane price for a simple double blade cartridge made in Tim buk 2. The sheer increase in tech since then should make them 29cents each to make. I shun China-mart with a passion.
Stoic 157 posts, incept 2021-09-12
2022-07-31 14:05:13

TG
Quote:
Oh, I get the love of all things "cheaper"


Cheaper only in price. Not cheaper in total overall cost when you factor in lesser quality and shorter lifespan. I know most of us here know this but the average person either has no clue or cannot see beyond today. The "I want it now" mentality has played a huge part in this transfer of manufacturing to China. I don't foresee that mentality changing anytime soon. Klaus and Bill, et al, feel otherwise.

Stoic
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