Pelosi, Catholics, and Abortion
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2022-06-05 11:00 by Karl Denninger
in Musings , 520 references Ignore this thread
Pelosi, Catholics, and Abortion
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Religion: To bind back to.

Is that the definition?  It's under some dispute; that English inherited it from Latin isn't disputable, but which components of the Latin noun are in play?  All the way back to the Romans this was under debate.

Nonetheless what is not under dispute is that a religious tradition is, by the definition of a tradition, not yours to define as you wish.  You can debate what things mean within the group of people who adhere to a certain set of beliefs, but at the end of the day you can't forcibly change their mind.

Nancy Pelosi, along with Biden and many other politicians, think they can.

While speaking with The Seattle Times editorial board, Pelosi said, “The very idea that they would be telling women the size, timing or whatever of their family, the personal nature of this is so appalling, and I say that as a devout Catholic.” She added, “They say to me, ‘Nancy Pelosi thinks she knows more about having babies than the pope.’ Yes I do. Are you stupid?”

devout Catholic eh?

Well, no you're not Nancy, because you don't get to define what "Catholic" is.  There's a process for that, it takes place over long periods of time and utterly nothing you can do, say or otherwise will ever change any of that.

I have plenty of issues with the Catholic Church and haven't set foot in one in quite some time.  Those who have read these pages along with Musings, before The Ticker was my primary publishing outlet, know why.  But that is neither here or there; the facts are that the Catholic Church holds that certain acts are serious, mortal sins and other acts are inherently disordered.

That doesn't mean you hate people who do these things.

It does mean if you support such you're not in a state of grace appropriate to receive Communion -- or other sacraments, other than Confession, of course, which requires that you repudiate those acts.

The Catholic Church has been absolutely steadfast on this issue, with published writings going back to the 5th century in which affirmation of an aborted fetus' soul-hood, and thus recognition as both a human and entrance into eternity, as the Church defines it, were were.  As such if personhood exists then "thou shalt not murder" is rather clear.

For private individuals their state of grace, such as it is, is a private matter.  But politicians, when they advocate and legislate, along with other public figures, are placing their "state of grace", such as it is, on public display and using it as part of their argument.  It is the difference, in short, between a priest offering you communion ignorant of the fact that you screwed another woman as a married man last night and you preaching to the entire congregation, with full knowledge of the pastor, that you did so and yet are in "grace" appropriate to receive communion during the Homily as a guest sermon.  In the first case you may damn yourself; in the latter, if the Church goes along with it, said damnation could reasonably be extended to the Church itself!

One does not have to sacrifice one's own life in furtherance of another's, but that's where the line is drawn under that standard.  You can disagree with that and many people do but that is how the church sees it and has since the earliest days.

Why don't Pelosi and Biden (along with the others) leave the Church and go find a faith community that agrees with them?  There are many.

At the root of this from Pelosi is not religion at all.  It is thuggery.  She, Biden and others, believe they can force the Catholic Church to change its views and do as they will.  Their deliberate thumbing of their nose and in fact erecting the middle finger at Catholic doctrine is simple and pure arrogance -- and long past the point where the Church should have slammed their fingers in the door.

That this has finally happened is a good thing.

The Catholic Church is notoriously slow in virtually every respect.  It is slow to make decisions, it is slow to shift perceptions and, when it comes to someone sticking up the middle finger repeatedly in Mass and in the media, as Nancy Pelosi has done over the last decades, it is also slow to react to that.

Deliberative processes that are slow are often a very good thing.  They give someone involved the capacity to rethink what they're doing and perhaps change their mind.  They give the institution time to contemplate not only the action but the possible and probable reactions, along with the consequences.  They give everyone, in short, time to act with thought instead of on a rash, reactionary basis.

Pelosi has had that time now, and the Church has spoken.  It should speak to the rest of the political sphere and make clear that if you're in a policy-setting role and speak directly against what the Church believes then the Church will uphold what it believes and not participate in your hypocrisy nor bow to it.

In short: It's about damn time.

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Neal
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Three things I dont expect to happen to Pelosi
1: she is arrested and convicted for all her crimes
2: the Catholic Church excommunicates her
3: she makes it to Heaven (Im not even sure she will make it to hell, even the devil has standards).
Susanlauren
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That is a great question. Why haven't Nancy and Joe sought out a religious community more in keeping with THEIR beliefs? There are plenty. I think Karl hits the nail on its head. Thuggery. Arrogance. Force. Bend to THEIR will.

They have made unto themselves the sacrament of abortion and the doctrine of "a woman's right to choose" under the guise of "health care."

I don't think "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do," applies here. I think they know exactly what they are doing and they celebrate doing it. May God have mercy on their souls because otherwise all that remains is judgment.

In other news, the USSC will soon issue its "official" opinion (perhaps the same as the "leaked" opinion) on abortion. I anticipate a long and hot summer.
Htownws
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As a practicing Catholic the Pelosi situation just highlights the battle inside the church. Francis and the liberals have no desire to change the culture. You will hear more about climate change from Cupich and Mcelroy than abortion. The Mcarrick wing (of which Francis is a member) is still alive and well.
Jpg
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I've got a recollection from 10 or 15 years ago that she actually claimed that abortion was "central to her Catholic faith".

Reason: rephrased
Capcomp
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Piglosi and President Dementia have literally spent decades lying in public. At this point they can't separate their warped view of the world from reality. No incentive to change since they have never been held accountable and likely never will.
Bluto
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Why don't Pelosi and Biden (along with the others) leave the Church and go find a faith community that agrees with them? There are many.

Oh, I think they and many others are members of a "faith community" that shares their values.

It is called satanism.

Whether they physically attend the grottos or not, I don't know.

But I do know of a guy who was offered the position of "high priest" in one those organizations (yes, they have ranks also). He didn't take the position, but got to attend plenty of parties and events. He claimed there were many high ranking people there in politics. That was a couple of decades ago.

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Starrynight
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I believe that the Didache, an early Christian text that may date from before the year AD 100, includes the condemnation of abortion in its exposition on the Christian faith. The document teaches some of the basic principles and practices of the faith, and mentions that you can't support killing babies. As far as I know, induced abortion and infanticide were common in the pagan world, and the Christians were different for condemning these practices.

I searched "Didache abortion" and found one commentary that contained these statements:

"This passage should give pause to those self-identified Christians who glibly announce that they are pro-choice. The Didache was not indifferent about abortion nor does it hesitate to list abortion (and infanticide) with other gross violations of the natural and moral law: murder, adultery, pederasty, sexual immorality, magic and sorcery, coveting, perjury, greed, and conspiracies (2:17). The pagans were known to try to induce abortions, which the Didache prohibits. It is hard to imagine the author of the Didache announcing that he is personally opposed to abortion but supported it as a matter of public policy any more than they would say the same about murder of adults, pederasty, and the like.

"The moral rigor of the Didache is also in contrast to the way some late-modern Christians speak about sexual ethics generally. The Didache unequivocally condemns sexual immorality. Again, it is hard to imagine the Didache countenancing the nomenclature, gay Christian. This much seems clear from the blanket condemnation of sexual immorality in 3:3."

But, I am not an expert about this, so please correct me if I got any info wrong.

Here is a link to some info about the Didache: http://early.xpian.info/eng/didache.html
Starrynight
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I recall hearing a top Democratic politician around the year 1990 saying that as a Catholic, he was personally opposed to abortion, but as an elected representative of his district, he had to vote in Congress according to the will of his constituents, who were mainly pro-abortion. I remember that this silver-tongued explanation sounded persuasive at the time.
Whitehat
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Excommunication is reserved for a Catholic known to be a public sinner. If anyone fits the definition, i don't know who does.

Please accept that this means no offense to Catholics as i am not one, merely around such a large number of them over the years lending a very good understanding of the faith and its politics.

Why are they doing this now? Abortion and Catholic hypocrisy in this and other major issues is nothing new. Once again, other religions are also capable. Catholics seem to be a special case for a few reasons.

The Catholic church exploded in membership, wealth and political influence roughly in sync with the postwar boom. It was just the right people present at the right time in history with enough basics in place to do what happened naturally at the time.

The Catholic peoples were entering a formalized power phase after years of having little nexuses across the country in many cases participating in big city and governmental graft. Truth is.

When they exploded in numbers and wealth they displaced and converted vast numbers of the old order Christian groups. Many of us watched the numbers decline in old religious orgs as intermarriage occurred. Very much the new fecundity outnumbered and replaced while taking on the accoutrements of previous cultures. Very common across history, see a lot of New England for a modern example. The Catholic church was very strict regarding its rule when intermarriage occurred. This is not a negative, just is, as for example in my family anyone marrying a Catholic or embracing the religion is permanently and completely shunned. This natural dynamic was helped by many postwar boom govt institutions and largess making said affordable such as education and numerous subsidies for housing. A climatic point would be reached in the election of a President representing this new group moving into the power structure.

Politics can be a dirty game, and the path to political influence in the post-Civil War America has the same predisposition. Groups seeking influence and sometimes even basic survival in this new land do things. Big city corruption was not exclusively Catholic, and it would be wrong to pin such blame on them, however the vast numbers and amazing level of unwavering support among its members cannot be discounted. Further their mother church in these same areas was and still is an integral part in the politics which once again has always had a percentage of it being a dirty game. For example:

Various Catholic Cardinals have been known to be major political players, at time some were known for it. Vast sums in the great cities built hospitals and other institutions placing them squarely in the realm of real estate moguls, local and regional contracts and politics, patronage to other outside of their faith and the necessity to play the same system that any business needs to survive in the graft system which defines govt everywhere.

Enter the politicians as they are merely a result of the influence of a people. The reason that the Catholic church looked the other way over this and many other issues which Karl brings up in this article is that during their America start-up phase, innovation phase, growth and power phase, these politicians were needed just like any other corporation or org possessing vast amounts of wealth would need.

This is a long way of saying that the Catholic church needed its politicians too much to offend them, or worse, hinder their public support. It is also why this church did not hammer its members too much over these sexual issues merely giving them lip service. It was a wink and a nod to the sexual revolution which was as much about populating the church here as it was about freedom, long subject.

What they are doing now is reseeding with their most core group niche. It is an interesting approach to having never really had a stalwart business phase. They are in a decline phase and must reinvent themselves as public knowledge of the history i typed above is quite common. Remember also that a people (perhaps another too with smaller influence) are also strongly associated with the institution and graft. Their story is also becoming known more every day. The Catholic church might also be attempting to distance itself from their influence and association with their rise to political power.

The Catholic church was and is a type of monarchy. Like the Royals in the United Kingdom, they find the need to reinvent themselves for the public consumption every century or so. Humans only live so long, and few know much history.

If one had a g-d view of the situation, one would see a conglomeration of idealists, reformers, careerists, practical people, people looking for openings in power, bean counters, strategists, reactionaries, shlubs, whatever. There is a natural process where they align and make things happen. Happens everywhere. Many will spend their lives trying to figure this drama when it is so simple. Times change.

And, the politicians have served the process of a different time, and their time has passed.

They are discarded in an elegant way.

And you thought that it was about faith, belief and morality.

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Onelegged
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Personalized astroids for the lot of them.

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Krzelune
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It will be interesting to see how 6 of 9 SCOTUS's vote on abortion.
Susanlauren
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@Whitehat
I think you are on to something. That was a most excellent summary. Of course it isn't about faith, belief and/or morality. It is about money and power.
Burya_rubenstein
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Quote:
It will be interesting to see how 6 of 9 SCOTUS's vote on abortion.

The SCOTUS doesn't - or at least isn't supposed to - make policy. Their function is to report on what policy already is according to the laws and Constitution, whether for good or ill.
Redsox2824
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Speaking as a former priest, I am happy that a dozen or so bishops in the former USA have supported Archbishop Cordileones correction of Pelosi. Of course, Wilton Gregory in DC is not among that small group, so Nancy will be welcomed as ever by the horrible Jesuit church there, along with Biden. Why dont they leave? They grew up in the 40s and 50s as American Catholics, at a time when it had finally become easy to be Catholic. And they were enthusiastic about the way that Vatican II embraced an American version of the separation of Church and State. The whole personally opposed, politically for argument was accepted without much argument well into the 90s Id say, so, why would they have left? Nowadays, bishops are dependent on donations from the super rich, as well as the human trafficking money, I mean the money to help immigrants, that comes from the government. Consequently, most Catholic bishops in the West are eco-fascists, and very tolerant of the lgbt crowd now, which have consequences that are discussed here all the time. The Bidens and Pelosis of the world will receive Gods justice, but their pastors are doing little to bring about repentance in this life.
Nelstomlinson
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Quote:
(Im not even sure she will make it to hell, even the devil has standards).

Hell is where God puts those who choose not to spend eternity with Him. The devil doesn't get to choose his company.
Jfenello
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When will the church take a consistent position wrt state sponsored killing, aka foreign wars for profit?

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Tickerguy
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smiley

Never.

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Gregorykeating
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A Catholic bishop has complete authority and enormous power within his diocese. He answers only to the pope and even the pope must tread lightly when dealing with a bishop.

A bishop is responsible before God for the souls of his flock. I do not know the mind of the bishop but, I believe, that in prohibiting Mrs. Pelosi from the reception of Holy Communion, the bishop had a twofold purpose: 1) the calling of her to repent of her sins and return to the fold. Here the salvation of her soul is the foremost concern 2) the clear message to his flock that affirms the Church's teaching on abortion lest anyone be misled by Mrs. Pelosi.

The Church would never suggest to any of her children, including Pelosi, that they should go elsewhere. No, no!! The Church calls her children to repent and, like the prodigal son, return to her forgiving embrace.
Phils
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Good to see a news article about the Catholic Church that doesn't involve a priest and an alter boy.

As the long term Speaker of the House of the USA, Pelosi is likely the most powerful woman in the world. Publicly linking abortion to her religious beliefs was an amateurish blunder. The Vatican had to respond.


Dingleberry
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The Catholic "church", like most other so-called "churches", have radically changed to placate their feminized base. Most are no longer churches. They are social clubs.

I am surprised about this kurfuffle with the democraps and the church. It not like this is anything new. The first Catholic president (JFK) came from New England and that is one of the bluest places in the country, and heavily Catholic. But also the most liberal.

I pretty sure Jesus would not approve of abortions, trannys, whoring, etc. Or more accurately, his supposed representative on earth (the Pope) would either. But even the Pope is going woke now.

Expect to see blue haired, tatted trannys in the pulpit at a "church" near you soon.





Lizardqueen
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I'll just leave this here... lol.
Inline

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Ingar
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Most people inherit their religion. Some may stray from the faith of their parents, but I suspect that it is unusual for someone raised in one faith to examine another faith and adopt it or one day have an epiphany and decide that they're going to become a fundamentalist unitarian or maybe a Bhuddist.
For completely amoral, politically calculating individuals like Pelosi, Biden, and any number of CONgress-critters, religion is something that assists in bringing a certain percentage of the electorate into their fold and provides them with a veneer of morality that conceals their true nature from those not capable of critical thought.
In my first professional job, my boss advised me that the best way to build a practice in a small town was to go to all the churches. I told him that I wasn't particularly religious, but I didn't believe in using religion for business purposes. He replied that I shouldn't worry about such things as religion was a business and that he should know because he had been a minister for seven years.
Maybe he was right.
Lobo
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Of course they claim to be devout Catholics. They want to arrogate the power of the church to themselves. Yes, they could join a different church or organize their own church where they could create the rules and policies they think most appropriate. That would take too long, though. Now that I think about it, I'd say they have joined a very widespread, but disorganized church: The Church of Arrogance.

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Lazydaizy316
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I can't believe the overwhelming amount of evil that is found in that little tiny hole called Washington DC.


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