Damn You All To Hell Gov't: Vapes
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2019-09-13 16:51 by Karl Denninger
in Personal Health , 173 references Ignore this thread
Damn You All To Hell Gov't: Vapes
[Comments enabled]

Ok, now I'm pissed off.

Yes, there's a public health problem with people getting vape devices/fills/cartridges/whatever with some sort of contaminant that is sickening a lot of folks with lung problems that should never, ever happen and it has killed a handful of people.

The answer to this is not to ban all vape devices and juices.  The answer is to identify the contaminant(s) involved, find the peddlers of same who stuck it in said cartridges or refills and toss their asses in prison.

Second, for those who lied about what is in said cartridges or juice refills, no matter who they are, toss them in prison too.  It's no more acceptable to falsely label this stuff than it is to put rat poison in a beer.

If we find that crap is coming from China, and it might well be, then I say we toss a few Tomahawks into the building of every single factory involved, all of their executives and add one extra for Xi's office as well.

The evidence thus far is that:

  • These illnesses and deaths are caused by lipoid pneumonia.

  • Lipoid pneumonia is caused by oily substances coating the lungs.  That is, inhaling oils that the body cannot metabolize.  The lungs then become inflamed and you both lose oxygen transport and literally choke to death.

  • There is no legitimate substance put into these cartridges or fills that would cause this.  Further, both for THC-laden cartridges and nicotine-laden ones there were no reported instances of this problem until the last six to eight months but both nicotine and THC-laden vape devices and their fills have been on the market for years.  Therefore it is clear that this is not a fundamental flaw with the concept.

  • Nicotine is directly harmful; it is in tobacco for that very reason, to deter things (insects, etc) from eating the tobacco leaves!  It's a natural substance produced as an "anti-predation" device by the plant.  Many plants produce such chemicals; pyrethrums are another example.  This does not make such substances safe.

  • If you are going to use nicotine it is nearly-certain that it is safer to vape it than smoke tobacco.  This should be obvious; you still get the nicotine but not the tar, which is directly carcinogenic.  Tobacco kills a half-million Americans a year and while some of those deaths are cardiac in nature and likely caused by the nicotine a huge number of them are lung cancer deaths caused by the smoke.

  • Oddly enough marijuana consumption has not been linked to lung cancer.  Nobody knows why, but there are theories having to do with some substances in marijuana being protective while the smoke obviously is not, and these two things more-or-less balancing out.  Nonetheless there are other issues with smoking; emphysema for one and perhaps COPD, and I'd bet toking up on weed can cause that too.  So therefore I also bet that vaping THC is safer than smoking it -- but safer does not mean safe.

  • There is a second issue which is the production of candy-flavored cartridges and nicotine fills.  These are certainly attractive to kids and adolescents.

To recap, if it's not obvious from this:

1. Identify the adulterants that are resulting in these diseases.

2. Identify who is manufacturing cartridges and fills that contain said adulterants, and throw them in prison.

3. Identify who, if anyone, is manufacturing and selling cartridges and fills that are not truthfully labeled as to their contents and throw them in prison.  Truth in labeling is a first principle.

4. If you want to go further and ban flavored juices and THC-laden products let's see the evidence. I suspect there is some connection between these flavors, none of which I'm aware of has been tested for inhalation risk, and problems down the road -- or maybe even acute problems.  Beyond that if the issue is kids getting and using them then let's find some way to trace how they're getting them and stop it and, if necessary start applying appropriate sanction to the kids caught with them.  There are ways to do that (e.g. serialize the cartridges so the retailer that sold them can be traced, etc) that are not expensive.  I'm willing to bet you'll find that in most areas there are a very small number of retailers that are responsible for most youth distribution just as every high school kid knows which liquor store will let them buy.

As for going further than that?  Bull****.  If even ten percent of the people who smoke tobacco today choose instead to vape we're talking 40,000 people who won't die a year.  That is double the number of people who are murdered and it is some two hundred times the number of people who are shot and killed with evil black rifles.

If half of the smokers give up the cancer sticks for a vape box then we're talking about one thousand times as many people who don't die every year as are shot with evil black rifles.

You want to ban someone that will actually reduce deaths on a measurable basis?

It's not vapes -- it's the cancer sticks that come 20 to a pack.  But no, we shouldn't ban those either.  We should (and try) to keep kids from buying and using them.  But as for adults, if they choose, knowing what's in them and that they're dangerous -- they're truthfully labeled and people decide to use them anyway -- that's what being an adult is.

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User Info Damn You All To Hell Gov't: Vapes in forum [Market-Ticker]
Posts: 110
Incept: 2009-08-14

Vancouver, WA
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As I told a friend last night (well he's bordering on losing that designation)

This is selective outrage, follow the money. The tobacco industry is an 888 BILLION dollar industry in the US ALONE.

That's a big club to swing around the house. As in the White House, Senate and Congressional Houses.
Posts: 2035
Incept: 2008-12-09

Spokane WA
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Hey, if someone wants to pollute their lungs with substances from unknown, unverified sources without really knowing what's in them, then let natural selection take its course.

I agree with the Tomahawks; I despise the fact that I'm paying for yet another health 'crisis' that is entirely self-inflicted, and am finding it hard to give a **** about anyone outside of my small family unit.

Much less so today than a day ago.

**** it.

Early this morning, down the way from my office, there were probably 200 near humans crowded around a tattoo parlor, for some sort of giveaway. The clouds of vape smoke were like fog as we arrived to work. Some had obviously camped there overnight. Clearly, none of them have what might be called a regular job. Equally apparent, the vast majority of them had serious substance abuse issues.

Open sores don't make for good facial makeup, outside of televised zombie dramas.

Omne mendacium est.
Posts: 2
Incept: 2014-10-04

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Also follow the tax money. Vapes are not taxed like cigs. Big tobacco and big .gov stand to gain a lot from this move.
Posts: 509
Incept: 2008-02-16

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Traz, not so sure about that. I think Tobacco knows their product is dead and they are trying to co-opt vaping. Note that they want to ban all flavors but tobacco flavor. I agree that it's stupid. They might as well dictate that all alcoholic drinks consist of only water and alcohol. 5% for beer, 15% for wine... just alcohol and water as peach vodka attracts children right? This won't affect me as I mix my own and I doubt they will ban flavorings as well. If they do I can buy flavorings from Capella who cater to makers of hard candy. It's the same stuff.
Posts: 727
Incept: 2009-03-25

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E-cig was the one things that finally got me off cig.
It took me about 8 months of e-cig with no nicotine flavor to kick the habit of smoking.
I have been +6 years with no cig. or e-cig.

I feel good.

I now have petty cash to spend else where.

It was good for me. It will probably be good for you.

Sometimes I crave a cig. but realize that if it tried one cig. that I would relapse just like it had happened so many times before.
Posts: 727
Incept: 2009-03-25

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Sometimes we need gov. and sometimes we need gov. to butt-out.

In the case of e-cig., I believe that gov. has been bought to but-in, the wrong way by big money.
Posts: 158977
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Oh there's money behind this -- that you can be utterly CERTAIN of.

And it's probably the tobacco firms that are behind it too.

BUT -- there is a difference between marketing something with a big fat "at your own risk" label on it and marketing something that you claim is SAFE or even "Safer." You make that claim then PROVE IT, and show me what's in the thing you're marketing -- and where I can find the testing results on inhaling an aerosol of that thing.

Everyone knows smoking something -- anything -- is bad for you. Catastrophically bad in many cases. While vaping is, to a high degree of certainty, LESS harmful exactly how much less harmful is unknown and what's also unknown is WHY, after years of people using these products, are we SUDDENLY seeing no-notice, no-warning serious health events.

THAT says SOME group of distributors of these products changed what was in them. Who did so, why, when and what is it that was put in there?

There's a "GRAS" (generally recognized as safe) list of things that can be put into food and cosmetic items without detailed testing. Now we know some of that is **** (e.g. hydrogenated vegetable oils) but they're on that list. There ought to be a SIMILAR list for things that go into intentionally-inhaled products like vape devices, whether the device is used as a "delivery system" for nicotine, CBD, THC or all of the above, and if you want to use something NOT on said list then it's on YOU to demonstrate it's ok before you put it on the market.

Winding it down.
Posts: 716
Incept: 2009-09-04

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Tobacco companies want all the little shops and juice manufacturers gone. So they will push for regulations that cost millions to comply with, that they can cover with their deep pockets.

With a mod+tank and your own juice, you can feed what was a 2-pack/day habit for about a buck.

While a Juul pods are $4/pack equivalent, or $8/day. Big Tobacco wants that money.
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Seagrove Beach
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Altria Buys 35 Percent Stake In E-Cigarette Maker Juul
The move allows Altria, which is the parent company of Philip Morris, to hedge its bets on the future of nicotine, as cigarette smoking declines in the U.S.

"Today, we have been joined by an unlikely and seemingly counterintuitive investor in our journey," Juul Labs CEO Kevin Burns said in a press release that seemed crafted to address a tide of criticism.

"We understand the controversy and skepticism that comes with an affiliation and partnership with the largest tobacco company in the US," Burns wrote. "We were skeptical as well. But over the course of the last several months we were convinced by actions, not words, that in fact this partnership could help accelerate our success switching adult smokers."

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