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2019-09-09 09:56 by Karl Denninger
in Outside Thoughts , 155 references Ignore this thread
Go Ahead, Be Stupid
[Comments enabled]

Just got back from running the Townsend Half Marathon near Gatlinburg, and what do I read?

A Canadian man fighting for his life begged his assailant to let him go, but his pleas went unheeded -- which is probably because black bears don't understand English.

"You don't have to do this" he was reported to say.

Uh huh.

And then there's this....

Separately, a 62-year-old Minnesota woman, Catherine Sweatt-Mueller, was killed by a black bear on Sept. 1 while on Red Pine Island in the Canadian waters of Rainy Lake.

Black bears tend to not be aggressive.  But.... they're bears.

They're not cute and cuddly.  At all.  They've got claws and teeth -- and both are nasty.

Any animal that has teeth can bite.  One that masses several times what you do and is faster than you, if it decides to bite, is going to result in you having a very bad day.

Oh by the way bears can climb trees too with those claws, so.... yeah.

And by the way, for those of you who are macho man and think you'll just shoot him -- well, maybe.  Self-defense is a legitimate reason to shoot (even against an animal that is not in season and thus can't be hunted) but most pistols you're likely to be carrying have a high probability of just pissing it off and if your shot doesn't immediately stop said bear if you weren't going to get eaten before you sure as hell are now.

I never stop being amazed at the people who screw around with them in the parks, especially in the Smokies and doubly so when they see a cub.  If you see a cub Mama is in the immediate area and if she has any reason to believe you're threatening said cub you're ****ed.  Remember, Mama does not speak English so crooning at said cub and pretending to be "submissive" toward it means nothing.  All that matter is what she thinks, and if she thinks you're a threat you are odds-on to become lunch.

Stupidity is its own reward, especially around animals that out-mass you by several times and are both faster and stronger.

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Aztrader
Posts: 8422
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Scottsdale, AZ
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Of course it takes a fairly large caliber to take down a bear before he eats you and in Canada a lot of these guns are simply illegal. It's another disarmed country where they limit any self defense. You can only buy bear spray and nothing else. Basic pepper spray is illegal in most of the country.
Tickerguy
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Yeah, like a .454 Casull.... smiley

And even then you need a vital area hit or you're STILL ****ed.

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Winding it down.
Spanktron9
Posts: 4916
Incept: 2009-03-13

Reality.
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Bears like humans generally require a hot to the CNS for a true stop. Caliber of pistol helps but as KD points out placement matters most. Good luck under the stress of being eaten.

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"Winter is coming." -Motto of House Stark
"Don't coast through life. Grab it by the hair and **** it half to death." - Jotapay
"Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general" - Mark Rippetoe
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Tickerguy
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Yep @Spankton9 -- killing the animal is one thing. Doing it before it eats you, however, is what matters in this case and a shot that kills the bear 20 minutes later simply means they recover a big piece of you out of his or her stomach; the outcome FOR YOU is the same in that it just changes HOW MUCH is in its stomach.

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Winding it down.

Sancho
Posts: 62
Incept: 2013-12-06

Way, way south of Rio Grande
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Quote:
...and doubly so when they see a cub


Really amazing how pampered and unconscious about risk people has become.

That, specifically, is an example of a bad situation that is described in the Bible proverbs.

Also... "you don't have to do this". At least, if the man was black, he could have accused the bear of being racist, but begging to an attacking bear without a providing a good social justice argument is a lost cause. /sarc



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Face a bear robbed of her cubs,
but never a fool in his folly!
Proverbs 17:12
Click
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Years ago in Alaska we used to carry 44 Magnum as "bear insurance" even though we all knew it wasn't enough unless you landed perfect shot(s).

Back then the smart guys would empty a 12 gauge into an aggressive brown bear and call it a day. The problem I always had with the 12 gauge is it's too big to lug around when you're fishing. Especially when you have to pack out 150lbs of salmon.

Then the S&W 500 came out. I immediately purchased one. I love that gun. Right out of the box the action is so smooth that a didn't have to customize anything.

Most people don't know that bears can run faster than a horse for short distances, so it's unlikely that you'll outrun Mr. Bear.

One of my friends who is an Alaskan Master Hunting Guide bow hunts bear, not from a tree stand but right on the ground. Fun stuff. When somebody asks him if it's too dangerous, he explains how Alaskan Athabaskan Indian boys who reached puberty had to go out and kill a brown bear with a spear before they were considered a man and a full member of the tribe. Personally, I do my killing with guns, but I respect anybody who has the nerve to actually kill with bow, spear or knife..

Most of the little snowflake pussys we raise nowadays couldn't find their ass with both hands let alone kill anything even if their life depended on it.

People are so ****ed up in the head and detached from reality that they believe Dr Dolittle is really how you interact with animals... So sick. Now I can see why some men want to trade their dick for pussy.

Please, please! I beg Mother Nature to cleans the Earth of the massive glut of ****heads... Too bad Mother Nature is so unpredictable and listens no better than one of Her bears does. The truth is Mother Nature is very unfair. I can ask Her for justice, but I'll probably be the one ripped apart by a bear that attacks me from behind or struck by lightning while little precious snowflake gets to watch another Disney movie.
Stee_man
Posts: 171
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I've been to Rainy Lake. One year a black bear made a mess of our camp site and tore down a tent. Luckily it was while we were out fishing. We caught him at it while we were at a safe distance out on the lake. He wanted nothing to do with us and ran off.

A couple of us had 38 caliber pistols. My plan was to use it as a noise maker for scaring them away, not thinking it was enough to do serious damage. If it's just a chance encounter, that will probably work. If you've been darwin award stupid and messed with a cub, noise isn't likely to stop the charge. Even a tiny cat will fight you over it's kittens.
Tickerguy
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@Click -
Quote:
Most people don't know that bears can run faster than a horse for short distances, so it's unlikely that you'll outrun Mr. Bear.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

You only have to outrun the other person(s) you're with... which is the only real reason to hike or whatever with a buddy. Just make damn sure you're not the slowest person in the group! smiley

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Winding it down.
Kgmqt
Posts: 159
Incept: 2013-08-19

Minnesota
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Living in central MN I have had 0 black bear encounters until this year, in which I have had 3 this summer, including finding tracks in the field about a quarter mile away.

Saw a couple of cubs ATV riding in a tree by the trail. Guy in front wanted to get off his ride and take a picture. I had to tell him to move his ass and pointed to the mamma about 25 yards away staring him down.

With grizzlies playing dead will sometimes work as they are mostly interested in killing you. Black bears will want to eat you, so playing dead does no good.

Oicu812
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I have a feeling these are the same people who, after having a minor accident on the freeway, insist on immediately exiting the vehicle to inspect the damage. All while traffic zooms by on both sides.

I will never understand this.

Darwin must be asleep at the wheel...

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Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Kfell
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New Hampshire
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What a coincidence...I was out in the back of my property stalking some deer on Labor Day when I heard a twig snap behind me. I turned to see a 300 pound black bear not 25 yards from me heading towards my house. I literally thought to myself, this could be it...He got in between me and my house so I decided to turn my head slowly to see about getting behind a tree when he heard my jacket russle. He turned to me and snorted. Then jetted a million miles an hour in the exact opposite direction as me down the mountain destroying everything in his path. I had nothing but my bare hands to defend myself and he could have been on me in less than a second based on how fast he moved. Got back home and pour myself a stiff drink and decompressed.
Elkad
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Friend hunted bear with an iron-sighted Ruger Blackhawk in .41magnum. Depended on shot placement.

But he also carried insurance. In the form of a 10" barreled and pistol gripped 10ga double, loaded with hot magnums. A slug in one barrel and heavy buck in the other. He called it the "get off me" gun. 3000ft/lbs *2.
Tickerguy
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Damn..... so he had a Form 4 for that ****er? Short-barreled double 10ga? That SOB had to kick like a ******ned mule; it might break your arm but if you need to use it, well...

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Winding it down.

Aquapura
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South of Canada
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The comments on that article are priceless.

There hasn't been much detail on the woman who got killed but odds are she found a mamma and her cubs. I've been all over the boundary waters canoe area in those parts and seen a few from afar but never had them come into camp. Nobody I know walks around with a firearm as bear insurance for black bears. Grizzlies or the brown bears up in Alaska are a different matter.

Lenguado
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Orlando, FL
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I've had 3 encounters with Black Bears while riding my motorcycle in the mountains of NC & TN - twice they had cubs with them. They were either crossing the road as we rounded a corner or just hanging out by the side of the road.

Had to slow down in case they jumped out into the road or stopped there, and twice had to come to a complete stop as quickly as we could.

Talk about feeling naked and exposed!

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"War is when your government tells you who the enemy is. A revolution is when you figure it out yourself." --Unknown

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable." - President John F. Kennedy
Tickerguy
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I had a brief "debate" with a former girlfriend over this exact subject; she hadn't been in the backcountry much, we were going backpacking and she asked if I was bringing a gun.

I said "Uh, what gun would you propose I bring and why?"

"Any gun. You know. Bears."

"Oh. Well, a gun that would reliably stop a bear is big and heavy, and thus a five-alarm pain in the ass yet the odds of actually needing it are maybe one in a thousand or less. Anything lesser is just going to******him off; if he wasn't going to eat one of us before he sure as hell will after I shoot him with one of those. It doesn't do either of us a damn bit of good if the bear dies from the gunshot(s) AFTER he mauls you."

"Oh."

smiley

The other amusing gun-and-bear story was on my last trip into Canada a couple of years ago Mr. Customs asked where we were going, we said Algonquin to camp, and he then asked if we had guns. I said no (truthfully), we didn't see the need for them. He said "oh you know we have bears." I said that indeed I did know there were bears but I also knew that guns weren't allowed in Canada for ordinary tourists like me, and besides, the bear would probably maul me before he died if I shot him anyway.

He waved me through.

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Winding it down.
Lenguado
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Here in FL (Central), we do have a fair black bear population. Two incidents locally for the Lenguado family - the first was when a medium sized black bear was "treed" right across the street in front of the elementary school playground where our daughters went. Stayed up in the tree pretty much all day, so no playground that day and the school was locked down. They had to delay putting the kiddies on the busses and didn't allow pickup until the bear went on it's way later in the afternoon. Videos of the bear in the tree made the local news.

The other one was much more recent, earlier this year. Our youngest daughter texted us a picture of the ass end of a black bear wandering up the driveway of a new house being built - 4 lots up from ours! DOOOOP! We do live in a very rural part of the area, but had never heard of a bear in the neighborhood. LOTS of deer, foxes, a family of FL otters, a bobcat - a couple of gators in our lake - and a few mated pairs of Bald Eagles call a couple of our trees home though!

Not a bear story, but similar.

I was leading a group of my buddies on a motorcycle ride through the Canaveral Natl Wildlife area one afternoon, and took a cutoff road through a "nature" area. The road isn't as well traveled as the normal roads through Canaveral. Hadn't seen any cars coming the opposite direction since getting onto the road, when off in the distance I see what looks like a tree had fallen all the way across the road. In my mind I'm thinking that might be why I hadn't seen any cars. Then, as I get closer and closer (while slowing), the tree grew a head, a tail and legs . . . . At that point, I immediately slam on the brakes and stop.

Being in front, none of my riding buddies could see what I did. As they pulled up beside me, I'm starting to think - if that thing turns and charges, it could get sporty since we were all lined up in the middle of the road. That thing was HUGE! It's nose was a couple feet over one side of the road and the tail hung about a foot or so over the other side of the road. A buddy beside me started to get off his bike to take a picture, which apparently spooked the gator who took off into the underbrush. Whew!

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"War is when your government tells you who the enemy is. A revolution is when you figure it out yourself." --Unknown

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable." - President John F. Kennedy

Reason: Ooop, not a lynx...
Elkad
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Him having a form4? I didn't ask. Maybe.

This was 1988ish, not that that really matters.

I fired a single non-magnum out of it. Once. That was enough for me. 45-70 out of a 6lb brush gun is a popgun compared to it.

Both barrels? Yeah, that's for the point where having it dislocate your shoulder, or break ribs because you have it in a retention hold against your torso, is a complete non-concern.
Emg
Posts: 420
Incept: 2012-11-20

Canada
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I've seen a .500 S&W revolver for sale up here, but you're only allowed to take modern pistols to shooting ranges, so it wouldn't be much use for bear unless one decides to take a walk across the range. The most powerful pistol you can legally carry inna woods is something like a black-powder .455 Webley or a single-shot .577, which would probably just annoy the bear.

On the other hand, you can buy a cut-off 12-gauge pump-action shotgun and carry it in a holster in bear country. But you might still end up in jail if you run into a cop who doesn't know the law.

BTW, hunting rifles and shotguns are relatively easy to bring into Canada as a visitor from the US. AR-15s and pistols are more tricky, particularly due to the magazine size limits and the lack of legal uses here other than shooting competitions. But it's legal to drive across Canada to Alaska with a trunk full of AR-15s and pistols so long as you do the paperwork beforehand; just make sure you mail the magazines instead of bringing them with you.
Spence
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The bear attack scene in "The Revenant" seems pretty realistic. He was already cocked and ready when he heard the bear from behind and it was on him before he could turn around and get a shot off.

Emg
Posts: 420
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Canada
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Oh, I'd also add that bears coming close to humans seems to be a growing problem up here due to a growing population and displacement of wildlife by the wildfires of the last few years. A friend of ours had a bear and cubs living on his farm earlier this year, but he just avoided them until they moved on. Others have had bears going through garbage bins (police response: 'get a shotgun').
Tickerguy
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The garbage bin problem is real and once they get into one -- even once -- they'll come back repeatedly. You REALLY need one that is "bear proof" (e.g. has a "reach-in" unlock for the latch which a bear cannot get its paw/claws into) and USE IT RELIGIOUSLY.

You'll end up having to shoot any bear that associates humans with a food source -- and they're wicked smart. It's why the Smokies bar ALL "at-large" camping; there were too many stupid people who didn't keep their food properly (either in a bear can or PROPERLY secured off the ground.) Bears have been observed sending their cubs up a tree and out a branch to get to the bags; you have to put it up on one that's thick enough to support the bag but NOT thick enough to support even a cub. I've used a sack properly-secured over a tree branch but nowdays I use a bear can which solves the problem (bears can **** with them but can't get in) as well but many people don't like them. The important point in the back-country is that nothing other than stinky human and plain water ever goes into your tent -- not even toothpaste. Ever.

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Winding it down.
Asimov
Posts: 111897
Incept: 2007-08-26

East Tennessee
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Wow on that bear attack video, that was hard to watch.

I think I need to see that movie sometime.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.

Festina lente.
Budget-racer
Posts: 62
Incept: 2016-03-14

Virginia
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We had two black bears wander through the backyard here in central Va. One about 175-200, the other probably closer to 400. I'm out away from dense population, but not what I consider wilderness by any stretch of the imagination. Luckily they were just passing through, but it does get you thinking.

Being that I carry all the time, I did some reading to see if I could find some actual data on successful bear defenses with a pistol and what caliber, because I literally had no idea where you would even aim. I'll have to see if I can dig up the link, but I found one place that compiled just about every actual report they could get their hands on. To my surprise, it had a wide range of calibers among the successful stops. I saw everything from 9mm, and .40, to the more obvious larger rounds. Shot placement and non hollow point was stressed as far more important than just carrying a cannon. In fact, I saw quite a few reports of jams on the huge caliber rounds, due to the violent discharge partially dislodging the remaining rounds in the gun and failing the feed properly after that.

Apparently you really only want a brain shot and have to aim for the tip of the nose facing head on, because the brain sits low and to the rear of their skull. The soft flesh in the mouth or open cavity are your only chance for real penetration and a stop. Some other places mentioned a shot to the shoulder joint, but that sounded like a bad idea. Much like any other carry situation, you had better be well practiced and not have to think about your reaction that second or it's too late.

Full disclosure, I have zero interest in trying any of that in a sudden high stress situation. I was thinking more about something poking around the house and getting slightly aggressive, but not a full on charge and I had no way to avoid it. We don't leave garbage outside and I've never seen them again, so let's hope it stays that way. I'm happy to live and let live.
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