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2018-01-08 10:07 by Karl Denninger
in Corruption , 228 references Ignore this thread
Bring Out The Warrants
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Let's start with Cuomo and others, and make clear to both state governors and their legislatures that introducing, passing or signing a bill that constitutes a fraud upon the federal government by its very nature will be met with an immediate criminal felony indictment.

The Federal Government needs to make clear that this sort of game won't just be taken to court; the people who attempt same will be arrested and prosecuted for felony tax evasion.

 by tickerguy

Folks, the law is clear and that there are already schemes out there that arguably meet the same sort of criminal standard doesn't mean we should look the other way.  To the contrary.

To be a charitable contribution you cannot receive anything of value in return for the alleged donation.  If you do then you must take off the entirety of the received value from the alleged charitable contribution you deduct.

For example, let's say I make a $500 donation to my church.  As the church is a 501c(3) I can deduct that.  However, if the church as a consequence of my donation invites me to a $200-a-plate dinner (it's free market value) then I can only deduct $300 of the $500, because I received something worth $200 as a consequence of my "contribution."

This is long-standing federal law.

So were a state to, for example, set up a scheme where you could "donate" to your district school and take that off your taxes in an attempt to game the SALT change that's disallowed because you received something of value (the state tax reduction) for the alleged "donation."  If you then allegedly take the so-called "charitable" deduction you have committed the federal offense of tax evasion because your so-called "charitable deduction" is false; you claimed it on something you got value for and as such it's already disallowed.

In past years when I was running MCSNet I basically always itemized (because it was the better choice) and thus took charitable deduction for those contributions I made to charities of various sorts.  However, in some cases I got something of value back, such as a set of tickets to a show or similar, and the value of same had to be taken off the deduction.  In this case the value of same is dollar-for-dollar determinable since it would result in a dollar-for-dollar deduction from the state or local (property, usually) tax owed and thus same is disallowed.

This requires no new laws or interpretations -- the federal tax code has been this way since I have been earning money and paying taxes!

This is not a mistake or an interpretation; the state and local authorities are well-aware of the fact that any value received for a charitable donation must be subtracted dollar-for-dollar from the alleged deduction and as such attempting such in state law is a knowing ruse and thus a federal, and felony-level at that, criminal act.

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Rollformer
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Let's wait a second before we get out the warrants. This could get interesting, especially as it applies to school taxes.

I think there is a good case to be made that people who have no children do not receive anything of quantifiable/tangible value from the public schools. So, why not let them call it charity?

This brings us to the soccer moms with their precious snowflakes. Guess what? Two snowflakes? 10,000 x 2 = 20,000 in taxable income! If you want accountability in the public schools, this may well do it.
Tickerguy
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Quote:
I think there is a good case to be made that people who have no children do not receive anything of quantifiable/tangible value from the public schools. So, why not let them call it charity?

Nope.

A charitable donation must (1) be VOLUNTARY and (2) NOT provide me any tangible benefit.

If I make a "voluntary" donation AND GET TO TAKE THAT OFF MY COUNTY PROPERTY TAX BILL then I got something of value. Whether I have children in the school DOES NOT MATTER.

These schemes are felonies on their face and those attempting to concoct them are participating in a conspiracy to defraud the government.

They all need to be criminally charged.

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Analog
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Quote:
I think there is a good case to be made that people who have no children do not receive anything of quantifiable/tangible value from the public schools.


My Mom and a childless, grumpy neighbor lady had the same discussion when i was a kid.
Mom asked her "Don't you think it's a small price to have the little monsters not raiding your fruit trees five days a week ? "

Yeah Karl , that sure seems a conspiracy to defraud federal gov't.

Only way to weedwhack a bureaucracy is to cut off its money. This exemplifies Trump's genius . Places like NY CA IL who are enamored of excess government have it subsidized by the local tax deduction. It needs to go the way of the gas tax deduction.

a.


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Rollformer
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Fair enough. But can we at least hope Trump tweets something similar to my idea before convening the grand jury? The screaming will at least be entertaining.
Krzelune
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This is just pitiful and juvenile. Here we have the states with the highest income/property/sales tax in the country trying to create an underhanded system for their own citizens to not pay as much tax. Like... WTF
Happytrails
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Not to mention the gyrations they are faced with in defining this. Voluntary means no strings attached and I get to choose.

Let's see, should I keep 100% of my tax money or take a deduction for my top marginal tax rate? I dunno, let me ponder that...

How's that going to work out for the states? Are they going to claim its only voluntary if you pay your taxes and if you don't, you are evading taxes? Good luck making this idea work out.
Badmoonrising
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This is coumo's attempt to look good in front of his voters, he most likely does not expect this happen.
Tickerguy
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I suspect you're right BUT a conspiracy to commit a felony offense is still a crime, especially when you flaunt it in public.

I still say he needs to be charged.

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Nevertoolate
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I follow you totally in your statement regarding a deduction for getting anything in return and that it has to be reduced by that amount.(ie $200 meal) With any itemized charitable deduction, the taxpayer receives a benefit (however not immediate, but when the tax return is filed the following year) of the amount contributed times the tax bracket percentage of taxable income off the amount of their tax bill. In the example you made, the $500 would correctly have to be reduced by the meal value of $200. But if you were in a 33% tax bracket, you would in the end save you $100 on you federal tax bill. That benefit would have been realized in the following year when the return was filed and taxes were due.

They are stupid for even trying this anyway. The IRS will issue a letter ruling saying that this type of scheme cannot be used to deduct property taxes as a charitable contribution and that will be the end of it. Yes, they can take it to court, but they won't prevail. Also they will audit every schedule A charitable contribution over X amount.





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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Tickerguy
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Yep, and they should.

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Tsherry
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It'll be interesting to see how the new 'tax law' impacts early 2018 school bond issues in our area. People haven't figured out the impacts of the changes, it seems to me, but when they do, Things Might Change.

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Goforbroke
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Quote:
People haven't figured out the impacts of the changes, it seems to me, but when they do, Things Might Change.
Not to mention the impact of any tax/bond issues which were passed in the November election, nor any revaluation which at least in Ohio occurs every 3 years. A friend of a friend's property tax bill nearly doubled from $11,000 to $20,000 as a result of both of these.

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Jayhawk
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Not only are school taxes involuntary but even if I have no children I benefit because general education is a benefit to society as a whole, and I am a member of that society.
Tickerguy
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Not only are school taxes involuntary but even if I have no children I benefit because general education is a benefit to society as a whole, and I am a member of that society.

So tell me why, if you're wealthy, you should pay for dozens of kid's educations while if you're middle class you might pay for one, and if you're poor you pay for nothing but get it anyway.

Furthermore, if you're obligated to pay for it are you not entitled to demand that it be both cost-effective and that it also be delivered in a form and fashion that actually accomplishes the goal -- and that those who do the opposite be held criminally and civilly accountable for having stolen money from you for other than its stated purpose?

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Mtdm
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The value received here is real simple: its protection money so your wife and dog dont get shot and you dont get thrown in jail.
Nevertoolate
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That's what happened with .gov took over the schools in the early 70's. Before they school board was elected and paid for by the parents in the district. It worked really well and was accountable. You couldn't have found a worse solution if you had tried than what we got. All in the name of desegregation (which has evolved back to segregation with areas in colleges that exclude people for whatever reason).

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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Ckaminski
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Quote:
benefit because general education is a benefit to society as a whole


Is it?

I might agree if we had a basic civics and economics test before being allowed to vote.

haven't we seen time and again on this very site the actual value that education is actually providing? I'm getting a pretty ****ty ROI on my taxes.
Whitehat
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Karl, regarding paying for other people's children in my market what one is really paying for is their lifestyle. the money that parents should use to pay for their own children's future simply gets allocated elsewhere. most two child households, definitely larger families all with good jobs many govt service would not be able to afford the house "payments," living enhancements to said house, vacations of any type, upgraded car leases or purchases, simple **** like AC, not to mention other recreational stuff if they had to pay any amount for the pre K thru 12 education which many times has all sorts of extra curricular enhancements. this is the best kept secret. most of the middle class is not self-supporting and relies upon wealth transfer, much of it sovereign debt. we trained parents to not be responsible for the cost of their children's education. imagine if they were hit with the actual bill the societal consequences in terms of lifestyle. this and things like Medicare actually make retirement life possible and much of the life before possible. this is why the political class plays all of these shell games taking money from some to give to others as once people are forced to be autonomous they start asking uncomfortable questions.

those of us who absorb the costs for our children, private or home school make a lot of sacrifices to afford it while paying for others. the rich do not often care as it keeps society ordered and allows paying customers for some of their businesses. the rich will gladly pay taxes to keep the consumer mill grinding and they get the added benefit of parents who feel out of control of their children's development. the constant noise over technology influencing youth is simply evidence of a disenfranchised parent culture. there is no hope for the parent class but to blame outsiders as they ceded control long ago and it became standardized.

could you imagine if people had to give up their lifestyles and upgraded consumer life to be in charge of their children. i think that they would truly not know what to do with themselves. when i admit to people about never taking a vacation or trip until 2001 for ten days at low cost, drove there, they think other planet. made finding a mate interesting, that expectations thing; see how deeply rooted this scam is??

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Nevertoolate
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Check out the fact that Baltimore schools have the highest admin cost per student (like $1600 per) of any school district in the US, yet most of the students who graduate can do math. WTF? Bottom line. Nobody gets fired or goes to jail so nothing changes.

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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Krzelune
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Cost per Student by state from 2012. https://education.cu-portland.edu/blog/c....

We live in a school district that is over $13K per year per student. My kids went to excellent private schools in three different states and were home-schooled some years when we moved. HS was roughly $8k and middle school and elementary school averaged around $4k per year. I have a senior in a private HS now and our 2017/18 tuition was $9,500 and that includes meals which are ten times better than public school slop. They raised it $1000 and added meals this year. If you are "financially disadvantaged" the prices are about 1/4 of that. If I got $13K per student per year I could buy a limousine and hire a driver to take them and pick them up from school each day. They are spending way too much for a crappy public school education.
Nevertoolate
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Can anyone say, "School Vouchers"? Thanks to Bill Clinton, unions are so entrenched in both .gov and .edu I doubt that will ever change.

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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Vernonb
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Whitehat said:
Quote:
Karl, regarding paying for other people's children in my market what one is really paying for is their lifestyle. the money that parents should use to pay for their own children's future simply gets allocated elsewhere. most two child households, definitely larger families all with good jobs many govt service would not be able to afford the house "payments," living enhancements to said house, vacations of any type, upgraded car leases or purchases, simple **** like AC, not to mention other recreational stuff if they had to pay any amount for the pre K thru 12 education which many times has all sorts of extra curricular enhancements. this is the best kept secret. most of the middle class is not self-supporting and relies upon wealth transfer, much of it sovereign debt. we trained parents to not be responsible for the cost of their children's education. imagine if they were hit with the actual bill the societal consequences in terms of lifestyle.


Whitehat thank you. That is exactly what is basically occurring. Lets add onto that the corruption and the wastrels within the school system where low value administrators and teachers suck down the wealth of their neighbors. These people deserve to be stoned to death for the thieving parasites they actually are.

As long as the economic consequences can be passed to other people the people causing the problems have no reasons to change. What we get are people like jayhawk that wish to hide behind children as a subterfuge for the REAL crime that is occurring - theft of resources. This is not about children it is about PARENTS accepting their responsibilities as parents. If these people truly cared abut the education the children received they would lynch these people for the harm they have caused. Actually I think they are getting what they deserve out of the "free with no accountability" education in USA.


As far a charitable donations being deductible from taxes I think that deduction needs to also be permanently eliminated. If you gave something in charity why should you be entitled to anything back? - it is a gift you freely gave. It should not be the responsibility of taxpayers to reimburse some portion of a free-will donation. Asking to be reimbursed by government for some portion of that donation is equivalent of receiving something of value IMO. I may not support your chosen cause. Why is it then right to demand public tax monies be funneled back to anyone that supports any cause? Claiming that this encourages "giving" is horse**** in my opinion. It only allows people - especially the extremely wealthy- to use other's taxes to support their causes - many of which may be disgusting to other parties.

I have NEVER take a deduction for charity. It is none of the government's damned business what charities I wish to support or not support. Furthermore I do this as a religious tenant. I do not go about telling other people/organizations/government of the people I have helped through charity.

Quote:
Matthew 6:4 - KJV
"That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."


My stomach churns every time I see some celebrity grandstanding about his charitable contributions.

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