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 On The Ukranian Situation
Lobo 1k posts, incept 2013-12-25
2014-02-23 14:07:29

To me, any demand that people turn in their arms is an admission by a government that they do not respect people's rights and plan to violate those rights in the future. If they plan to follow the law and the will of the people, it doesn't matter that the people are armed since people will know that the political process will work and will participate peacefully.

Village Idiot
Wifi 11k posts, incept 2013-02-13
2014-02-23 14:54:36

Cluelessinfl wrote:

Not only did the protesters have guns, they had grenades:

That video is not from the Ukraine look at the flag in the background!

"We live in a, idiocracy populated with morons." - Goldbrick
"Freedom cannot end where fear begins."
Robby Dinero
"The free market works, if you let it... but part of
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2014-02-23 14:55:09

Ssshhhh..... don't spoil the story! smiley

The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
Cluelessinfl 287 posts, incept 2011-01-08
2014-02-23 15:14:46

Well, would you believe not only did they have grenades they imported protesters from Thailand?

Sheesh, if you can't believe YouTube what can you believe anymore?

The difference between Americans and Europeans is our ancestors threw off the yoke of tyranny, theirs embraced it.
Mro 184 posts, incept 2009-03-27
2014-02-23 15:26:32

[blockquote]Ukraine is a Frankenstein built out of WWII, basically[/blockquote]

The current incarnation was built out of the Second World War, but it extends beyond that. There was the colonization of the east, the famine and deportations of native Ukrainians, not to mention the centuries of division between Russia and Poland of the land... What has been under-reported is that there's a lot of fed up ethnic Russians in Ukraine too, so that while there's an undercurrent of division in the country, at least in this there's more commonality within the country as to "the cause" than one might at first suspect...

<Ukie here with friends on the ground>

Vernonb 2k posts, incept 2009-06-03
2014-02-23 15:27:05

Clueless - I believe that is in Bangkok, Thailand and not Ukraine. Look at the street signs.

"Mass intelligence does not mean intelligent masses."
Pj 1k posts, incept 2009-12-07
2014-02-23 15:41:30

Reading up on Ukrainian gun laws it looks like they're somewhat permissive with handgun possession and rifles:

Guns in Ukraine

Ukraine is home to an estimated ten million state- and civilian-owned firearms,1 2 yet lacks cohesive gun laws. The nation inherited vast quantities of Soviet-era small arms and ammunition, and is a known source of weapons to regions of conflict and human rights abuse.3 4 Official secrecy makes allegations of widespread arms trafficking, state-sanctioned or otherwise, difficult to allay. In a Transparency Barometer of the worlds 40 largest arms-dealing nations, Ukraine ranks 36th.
Civilian Possession

Estimates of the number of guns in private hands range from 2.2 to 6.3 million. These suggest a median rate of 6.6 firearms per 100 people, although the higher figure would yield a rate of 13 per 100. In 2005, Ukraine ranked 84th in the world for the number of civilian firearms per capita.5 2

In response to a United Nations study, Ukraines Ministry of Internal Affairs reported a national total of 722,739 registered civilian firearms in 1997.6 This leaves uncounted a national stockpile of 1.5 million to 5.5 million undocumented, illicit small arms.

The average asking price for an AK-47 assault rifle in the Ukraine rose from US$250 in 1991-95, to US$350 in 2001-05.7

My guess is AK's are not permitted, but available nonetheless.

I am very curious to find out what, if any, impact guns in the hands of civilians had to do with this change of gov't.

Is that clean spot on your bumper where your Obamacare sticker used to be?
Jymm 428 posts, incept 2012-01-22
2014-02-23 17:30:15

centuries of division between Russia and Poland of the land

Ukraine had always been a territory of Russia or Poland up until the fall of the Soviet Union. One thing to remember is the young adults have grown up in an independent country, so may have a very different view than their elders in the government. While the Ukraine has definite divided loyalties, many would rather side with Western Europe. I think there is much mistrust towards Mr. Putin. Ukraine could easily lose what independence they have gained under an authoritarian Russian overseer.
I admire there grit in standing up to their own government.
Cvdoc 539 posts, incept 2009-06-11
2014-02-23 17:36:26

My best friend is a Ukranian American who has been in nearly hourly touch with the opposition. Lets be clear. This revolt was about corruption and political repression. The Ukranians want freedom and becoming members of the EU are not their priority. Gen has it correctly. They had had enough and were ready to die. While well organized, they are saving their bullets for the Russian invasion later this year.

Whether its Venezuela, Thailand, Bosnia, people are thirsting to determine their futures. I would go farther than Gen and say government is always the problem - it just takes time for it to deteriorate so the populace gets desperate enough. But like all governments, the Ukrainian government reached the back breaking point. The key was that police and Army refused to side with the government. I am afraid that that won't happen here. Obama has purged the military and weakened it. What is left will be turned against us if need be just like 1932.

I was surprised that the protestors made it so easy for government forces by localizing in the city square. The only reason to do so, was to draw the police (whom I suspect were some Russian Mercs) to the square, then go to their home and destroy them.

Make no mistake, our leaders and others are afraid of what the real story is in the Ukraine. Self determination scares them. Real accountability scares them. They know that ultimately no matter how many bullets DHS, IRS, etc buy, they can't hold back the unwashed hordes.

I am always surprised by Americans who think that superior technology guarantees victory. Look at us in Afghanistan, North Vietnam and Korea. Look at the Russians. Look at our own fight for independence against the British. When our government turns on its own citizenry to retain power (I am guessing about 10-20 years from now), hopefully someone besides this old man will remember the lessons of history.

Until then, lets hope the Ukrainians are preparing effectively for the upcoming Russian invasion. They aren't giving up their warm water ports, Nat gas pipeline to Europe and the Crimea so easily. Putin is a tough guy and the real deal.

As for the US government. We always screw things up. Even when "we mean well". The lame stream media doesn't care to understand what is really going on there either. We screwed the Iranian demonstrators in 2009. That government crushed their revolution with indirect help from us when we realized we couldn't control the outcome. But that is for another post.

Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master.
Bobby 3k posts, incept 2008-01-19
2014-02-23 17:54:20

Yeah, I don't think is neo-nazi take over.
It sounds like folks got pissed. And had enough.
Who runs the place after, I think it is way early.

I am sure there are normal folks that think EU equally sucks.

These seems to caught the west by surprise.
I think DoS got used to protests that went no where.

This should give folks around the world some hope and good ideas.

I got a bunch of ukranian ak ammo, around here somewhere.
Works great. The source is now cut off.
What is in the pipeline is still coming.
Russia and Ukraine are starting the 3rd shift at the ammo plants.

I think we got a big blow up, come'n.

This is not a nothing burger.


"It was the money.You Americans, you believe money is power.""Belief, is power."
Grunwald 783 posts, incept 2012-06-01
2014-02-23 19:45:03

I have read multiple opinion pieces on this issue, and just shake my head. One is by Martin Armstrong who claims to have 4 sources inside Ukraine. Big fucking deal!!! You can go down to San Francisco and talk to 4 thousand people and still not get the proper perspective with regard to Nancy Pelosi or the US government in general.
4 people and he's an expert!?! What a fucking ego!
The major networks are even worse. They all opine while blindly ignorant.
All I can say is that I wish them the best. They have had a very difficult history and deserve a break.

There are no limits to human stupidity
Grunwald 783 posts, incept 2012-06-01
2014-02-23 20:05:20

By the way I have read reports that the protesters did have firearms.
Many brought their legally owned hunting rifles with them.

There are no limits to human stupidity
Vitchilo 6k posts, incept 2011-04-27
2014-02-23 20:44:51

Funny I was reading an analysis by an ex Russian defense minister saying that if the Russian military intervened, they would get their asses kicked... And they could end up using tactical nukes to counterbalance... He's basically saying that the generals will probably tell Putin to not do it... but politicians don't always listen to generals (see : Afghanistan 1979)...

And if eastern Ukraine secede/is taken over by Russia even peacefully, western Ukraine is screwed economically.

One thing is sure, Crimean Ukrainians don't want to be linked to the EU...
Pro-Russian Separatism Rises In Crimea As Ukraine's Crisis Unfolds
The Russian Stronghold in Ukraine Preparing to Fight the Revolution
Ukraine crisis fuels secession calls in pro-Russian south

The Ruskies already have 25 000 troops in Sevastopol... and if that witch Tymoshenko takes power, she's insane enough to try to kick the Ruskies out of there... which will lead to war. And she will likely push for NATO and EU membership.

Then you got this : IFVs and troops around Novorossysk... (bordering on the Crimea) might be normal, might be the start of a buildup...

#Russian has recalled its Ambassador from #Kyiv for consultations.

We hang the petty thieves and promote the great ones to office.

Lemonaid 16k posts, incept 2008-01-20
2014-02-23 20:52:55

Russians invade and the gun running to Ukraine will be legendary.

"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of
Radcondive 667 posts, incept 2010-09-16
2014-02-23 21:20:27

Ya think there might be a place that might need some AK ammo that some 3 letter agency (dhs) might need to order?
Spanktron9 6k posts, incept 2009-03-13
2014-02-23 21:35:43

I am always surprised by Americans who think that superior technology guarantees victory. Look at us in Afghanistan, North Vietnam and Korea. Look at the Russians. Look at our own fight for independence against the British. When our government turns on its own citizenry to retain power (I am guessing about 10-20 years from now), hopefully someone besides this old man will remember the lessons of history.

This. The reason, IMHO, that Americans believe that drones, tanks, etc. make the US Military unbeatable, is because they only think about "clean" war. Winning through massively superior tech and firepower. Yeah, that isn't how it all.

Be prepared, to be hungry, thirsty, cold, dirty, sick, exhausted, injured, and mentally horrified. Then, you will win.

"This entire country needs a rebirth. Birth is painful and bloody." -Eleua
"Don't coast through life. Grab it by the hair and fuck it half to death." - Jotapay
Cvdoc 539 posts, incept 2009-06-11
2014-02-23 22:05:33

Exactly correct Spankton. The Brits in our own Revolutionary War thought we fought dirty. How definitions change. Determination wins. The Talibna fights dirty but who is leaving Afghanistan shortly. The USA.

Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master.
Mannfm11 8k posts, incept 2009-02-28
2014-02-24 03:32:04

Those people have guns, they won't give them up after all that totalitarian rule. Hope the gun grabbers and the gun owners are watching.

The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Rarnopp 932 posts, incept 2008-02-26
2014-02-24 03:33:35

A relatively optimistic view on Ukraine -

"Why Russia Won't Interfere"

"Things and actions are what they are, and the consequences of them will be what they will be: why then should we desire to be deceived?"
- Bishop Joseph Butler
Dogfarm 3k posts, incept 2007-11-29
2014-02-24 04:09:40

The glass is always half full: as a side effect, the supply of incredibly attractive, tall, slender Ukranian prostitutes will increase as will their market share globally. this will result in the unique 'that's the money' phenomena that while prices will drop, quality and quantity will increase.

but in all seriousness, the Ukranian people have just started something that i don't think will go quite the way they wanted. out of the frying pan and into the fire rings a bell. these people are idiots if they think the next group of power hungry politicians will be on their side.

be careful what you wish for because you are going to get it.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)
Vitchilo 6k posts, incept 2011-04-27
2014-02-24 04:35:40

At best, Ukraine will join the EU and bring it to collapse that much faster...

We hang the petty thieves and promote the great ones to office.
Ribbit 2k posts, incept 2007-09-10
2014-02-24 08:19:55

Karl: "And incidentally, I didn't say the people are always wise. I said they always win in one form or another, even if by "winning" they destroy their own premise."

Yep, and one of the worst tyrannies imaginable, is the tyranny of the mob. eta: That's why in another post, I said that the list to get onto, is the list of people who will demand trials and prison rather than encourage lynchings, because once the mob starts on lynchings, it can be really hard to stop, and lots of innocents suffer as a consequence (and the end result can be like France going straight into the arms of Napoleon Bonaparte). I'll take the Rule of Law any day, thanks.

Bobby: "I am sure there are normal folks that think EU equally sucks."

I doubt most grass roots Ukrainians (PARTICULARLY those in the West, near the Hungarian and Romanian borders) are unaware of the extreme dangers of the EU, with the recent similar uprisings in their neighbours.

One of the most excellent appearances in the Ukrainian situation, was the appearance of mirrors in the hands of protesters (I have been wondering when they would show up).

Now imagine what 50,000 protesters with 50,000 mirrors, can do on a sunny day.

Anybody want to take bets on how fast a tank can be melted?

Now imagine if it is a protest with 1,000,000 protesters with 1,000,000 mirrors. ;-)

Yet the Idiots That Think They Are In Charge, worry about guns in the hands of the people (they really are dumber than a box of rocks).

For perspective, on a nice sunny day, and with enough mirrors aimed at a threat, that threat could experience temperatures higher than 3,500 deg C (the solar collector in France achieves those temperatures, and there aren't really that many sq ft of mirrors, when you think in terms of very large crowds of protesters).

How long will some thug in body armour last? How fast will a sniper have a hole burned through their head via their telescopic sight?

You probably get the idea.

Start stockpiling those mirrors.

PS I hope the Ukraine people have the sense to stand up for Sovereign Self Determination, and refuse to be enslaved to either Russia or the EU.

"Just as a man would not cherish living in a body other than his own, so do nations not like to live under other nations, however noble and great the latter may be." Mahatma Gandhi

If the State was a Nanny, it would have been fired for incompetence, unreliability, and having its hands in the till, a very long time ago now.

Archie 41 posts, incept 2014-02-11
2014-02-24 10:56:13

That might be anecdotal evidence but my friends (of significant intelligence level, so I presume they aren't taking any propaganda BS for granted) in both Russia and Ukraine are under impression that the so-called "revolution" is inspired and bankrolled from abroad. That takes the transpiring events from "withdrawing the consent of the governed" into a much grayer area of coups and putsches. Would you, personally, participate in an uprising against Washington (much as you might cherish the idea, sooner or later) if you knew that Putin or Kim is behind it?
Thesev 1k posts, incept 2007-10-30
2014-02-24 13:39:14

Well, apparently they learned something.

The reason the republic isn't working is that it's being run as a democracy.

It doesn't matter who you are, or who you Think you are, the Math is Going to Win.
Tickerguy 192k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2014-02-24 13:39:56

Well well....

The difference between "kill" and "murder" is that murder, as a subset of kill, is undeserved by the deceased.
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