Throxxofvron wrote..

If the Republican Party were to stringently equate Civil Protection of Religious and Social Choice as a Party platform of stringent Constitutional 'Conservatism', ...

...they'd become Libertarians.

It's not a valid second priority because it'll lead us right back here. That's the point. You can't try to lead on these issues at the federal level, ever, because they're the wedge issues.

Again, someone is "the Left" just for recognizing that? Way to lose every election ever.

Wow, after reading through this whole thread, I think I finally get it. I used to think that TPTB came up with these wedge issues to divide and conquer. Now I see that the public is the one projecting them onto the politicos. People WANT to yak about all this and get an emotional high off it. They'd rather do that than deal with practical fiscal issues. No wonder this country is so messed up...

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I used to think that TPTB came up with these wedge issues to divide and conquer.

You give them too much credit.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

Religious issues should not be within the purview of the Feds unless there is a Constitutional amendment explicitly authorizing same. Want the feds to be involved in marriage definitions? Amend it. Want abortion outlawed or protected? Amend it. Want guns protected? Amend... oh wait. :)

Ron Paul told us the solution a long time ago, and no one is listening. Anything not explicitly in the Constitution should be left to the states. Keep this culture-war religious crap elsewhere.

It's interesting to note that I agree with some posters on virtually everything, then they come here and look like loonies on religious/social issues. Focus on the 90% where we agree, not the 5% corner issue of "gays all be throwin' their culture in my face!" How often does the gay pride parade march in front of your house and oppress your family values, exactly? Can't you put up with it for 2 days a year if it means getting rid of the Bezzle that steals your time and capital literally every second of every day? If you can't, why? Are you just attached to the emotional high or is it something else?

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"Every time we on TF talk about God and gays, God frees a banker and gives him a bonus." --me
"Your farts are interstate commerce and if they want to stick a muffler up your ass they will do it." --B

Quite right, Grf.

Personally, I do think that it is time to focus on the Fiscal and Legal Issues and leave the Wedge Issues aside for another day.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Grf wrote..

It's interesting to note that I agree with some posters on virtually everything, then they come here and look like loonies on religious/social issues.

I feel the EXACT same way! Then if you call someone out on it (hypocrisy of using the Constitution to serve your exclusive world-view), you are instantly a godless liberal.

I guess the philosophy of liberty and the non-aggression principle are just to impartial to have any value in our hyper-charged and over-emotional political circus diversion.

Oh yeah, if you attempt to use classical logic or any of the cognitive or rhetorical tools of philosophy and reason, you also get called an elitist or arrogant. That's depressing too...After all if you've attended college, you've obviously been programmed with the alternate liberal history.

It's sad but most people are concerned with 'getting theirs' from Uncle Sam, regardless of their political tribal color...Red or Blue are your only choices. The PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT is the real question that gets left in the dust unanswered every time. I think it's because the ONLY EQUITABLE answer to that question is the one that renders both tribes meaningless and powerless.

I am growing ever more pessimistic....

And that's exactly what people are going to have to do- leave it all aside.

And if that means continuing to go participate in TEA Parties even tho the MSM-appointed head of the TEAs (Beck) wants to excersize his right to have a Prayer Meeting in DC, so be it.

There was a lot of talk in another thread of people disappointed with religion in Conservative Politics. Disappointed to the extent of wanting to give it up.

Really bad idea and solves nothing, IMO.

I think we can all co-exist here to get this mess fixed...eventually. Unless people start dropping out because of disagreements on these -okay, I'm gonna say it: non-issues.

Right now, these wedge issues are all non-issues.

Widgeon- I thought we were talking specifically about the Parades. I totally agree with you that "Promoting Gayness" in schools is BS. And completely uneccesary as a means of getting kids to "accept gays". Sorry if you misunderstood.

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The PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT is the real question that gets left in the dust unanswered every time.

There almost isn't a proper role for government. Very nearly all political government is about imposing a minority ideology onto those who don't wish to accept it.

For the most part, people would get along just fine without government. About the only time I interact with government is when they steal my money.

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Why do you complain? It's the criminals who decide how proceeds of crime are spent, not the victims.

Jonathanr wrote..

There almost isn't a proper role for government.

I along with Jefferson and most of the other founding fathers would agree with you. However, it's not so obvious a conclusion to the masses, especially when almost everyone stopped even acknowledging the legitimacy of the question!

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Children are allowed to pray in school; in fact, they're guaranteed that right.

Uh huh. Keep lying: http://www.adherents.com/misc/school_hou....

Yet Muslims get this: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007....

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while every single public school student is forced to learn all about Islam. A couple goofups by a few school districts means it's happening universally, huh?

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/arti....
Goofups ? Hardly. Nice try but no cigar.
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/460652.aspx
"After the 9/11 attacks, the Massachusetts Board of Education funded a special seminar for K-12 teachers to learn about Islamic history and the Middle East.

The outreach coordinator at Harvard University's Center for Middle Eastern Studies helped organize the seminar. Stotsky said she was shocked by the teachers' lesson plans that came out of the week-long seminar.

"They ranged from having students make prayer rugs; describe what it would be like to go on a hajj--a pilgrimage; learn and memorize the five pillars of Islam; listen to and learn how to recite passages from the Koran; dress like a Muslim from a particular country.it was, to me, a clear violation of ethics involved in how one would expect children to learn about another culture. That they would literally go through the memorization and the learning of religious beliefs."

"These are unacceptable practices in a public school," she added. "In fact, they would be unacceptable academic practices in any school.""

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We have to interact with people who are rich, poor, white, black, yellow, red, straight, gay, liberals, conservatives, bigots.

Sounds to me like you're the bigot here. Simply teaching kids to respect others, ie the old Golden Rule if you remember what that is, should be sufficient. Forcing others to roleplay homosexuality, for example, is not a good way to teach tolerance.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=44773
http://theblogprof.blogspot.com/2010/04/....

Forcing this shit on kids who are required by law to be in school is worse than any "intolerance" those kids may display. Tolerance is not fostered by forcing someone to accept a practice.

Edit: Totally agree with Jonathanr here. Government IS the problem, as it is being used to push agendas. Without the force of government, people are free to decide things on their own. And as a result, people would have to "get along", as there'd be no government avenue to gain an edge over another.

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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and h

Making prayer rugs, learning the 5 pillars of Islam, the HORRORS! The alternative for a part of the country that has very few Muslims? Just straight ignorance? That seems to work just fine too.

Anyway, do you even read the shit you post? First link (besides the first few stories being suits brought and not won), very top of the page, goes here: http://www.adherents.com/misc/fed_guidel....

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Secretary of Education Richard Riley, at the direction of President Clinton, issued guidelines in 1995 and updated them in 1998 to reflect recent court decisions.

A synopsis of the guidelines:

Students have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity.
Local school authorities have "substantial discretion" to impose rules of order but may not structure the rules to discriminate against religious activity or speech.
Students may attempt to persuade peers about religious topics as they would any other topics, but schools should stop such speech that constitutes harassment.

Anyway, it's a wedge because I have to waste time explaining how your own links disprove you.

That's why I posted the second link. Quite a few didn't get the memo, it seems, including you. Did you read the second link ? There are lots more stories like that out there. I simply included two. Words are one thing, practice is another.

Yes, the HORROR. What part of no "establishment" don't you get ? Show me where kids are making rosaries, or skull caps, or Jewish prayer rugs, or modelling Noah's Ark or... oh wait, you can't, because it's all one-sided. If the schools want to teach a course on comparative religions that's fine, but that's not what they're doing, are they ? Can I see the chapter on Muslin extremists right alongside the chapter on the Spanish Inquisition in that textbook ?

No, my point is that these kinds of exercises have no business in public schools or public school textbooks, where attendance is forced by law.

It translates back to the wedge issues fought over the political space, of forcing a favored ideology onto some.

My personal solution is to get the government in all its forms out of being in a position to push certain choices that are social issues.

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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and h

Why would I waste time after your first link disproved your "Liar" comment 100%?

Care to take that one back as being completely wrong?

And learning about religions is not forced worship. Yeah, wow, I guess since I don't have a bunch of blog links from the dawn of the web at the tips of my fingers, no kid has ever learned anything about Christianity or Judaism in public schools. Guess you proved everything there.

Jesus Christ on a stick, the second link, big deal out of nothing much? Let's see, I always got Christmas off. A long vacation on Easter weekend. Always a half day on Ash Wednesday. That's not accommodating any particular religion though.

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wow, I guess since I don't have a bunch of blog links from the dawn of the web at the tips of my fingers, no kid has ever learned anything about Christianity or Judaism in public schools.

Not today they don't. Go read a current "social studies" textbook and feel free to report back anytime.

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learning about religions is not forced worship

I don't consider making prayer rugs simply "learning about" Islam. Wake me up next time the kids in public school make a cross in history class and dress up like Jesus, OK ?

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I always got Christmas off. A long vacation on Easter weekend. Always a half day on Ash Wednesday.

What we did 20-30 years ago is not what happens today. The former Christmas break is now "winter break" and encompasses Kwanza, not to mention the pagan solstice. Spring break is now often not Easter weekend. Even 30 years ago we never had off any time on Ash Wednesday; the Catholic kids went to a 6AM mass, before school started. We also got off Memorial Day weekend, started after Labour day, got off the day after Thanksgiving so the hunters cold make the first day of deer season, had two President's Day holidays in February, the kids now get MLK Day etc etc.

What's your point ? 96% or better of this country is raised in the Christian/Jewish traditions. We only have 1-2% who are Muslim or atheist. It was never a problem until the 2% started into the grievance industry. It used to be that those who disagreed went to private school; now property taxes have put that out of reach of many.

If 96% of kids wouldn't show up to school on Christmas Day, why would schools be in session ? If 96% of judges wouldn't show up in court on Christmas Day, should we force them to be there and miss their tradition to accommodate the very few ? That's not favoritism, that's common sense. Only the intolerant think the vast majority should inconvenience themselves for the 1-2% who do otherwise. That's not bigotry, that's the law of gross numbers speaking.

Again, I reiterate my point - if we didn't have public schools, everyone could go to the school of their choice and the stupid squabbling would not exist. BUT, because the 96% or better are being ruled by the ~2% who have an agenda, there's nothing but trouble.

The same applies to politics at large - government should not promote favoritism of any group. It used to be that government favored the many; now government promotes the few. How about we just get the government to butt out instead.

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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and h

"What's your point ? 96% or better of this country is raised in the Christian/Jewish traditions."

That statistic smells like ass. And with reason. You can't base an entire argument on a statistic you obviously made up. 2% atheists, hehehe.

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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.

Who cares what the percentages are?

Democracy is a sheep and three wolves coming to a conclusion over what's for dinner.

A Constitutional Republic insists that something other than mutton be on the menu.

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This is absolutely true Karl. This ticker has shown, more clearly than just about any other, why things never change in this country. Even educated people here just don't realize that their political strategy is self-defeating.

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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.

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Making prayer rugs, learning the 5 pillars of Islam, the HORRORS! The alternative for a part of the country that has very few Muslims? Just straight ignorance? That seems to work just fine too.

Is Mrbill as supportive of the children learning the tenants of the Christian faith and memorizing the ten commandments?

Ram,

I am a born again Christian and find KD's proposal and admonition admirable and currently the only way that we will regain law and order, fiscal responsibility and fidelity to the Constitution.

Bravo Karl!

Great ticker Karl! I'm sick of religious groups overtaking political groups and fucking them up. Plainly put.

Reagan was a liberal Republican (to my recollection), and he's admired as one of the best republican presidents. Why not have another one? It's such a shame that people can't just live their own fucking lives, but feel the need to "enlighten" everyone else.

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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Thomas Jefferson

Immigration is a wedge issue as well. Immigrants don't enjoy being ripped off by corrupt banks/financial institutions any more than everyone else does. Remember to stick to the issues that just about everyone is in agreement on.

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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.

Actually, illegal immigration is NOT a wedge issue. 90% of those who have the right to vote oppose it.

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Actually, illegal immigration is NOT a wedge issue. 90% of those who have the right to vote oppose it.

So true. I know an older lady who is pretty much a raving leftist (bless her heart) but otherwise a decent human being. She hates the fact we let them all in here unabated. I was shocked to hear that from her. She said most other people she knows feel the same way, even many americans of mexican descent.

add: she also voted for obama but is very unsatisfied with his "performance".

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I know not what others may choose but, as for me, give me liberty or give me death. - Patrick Henry