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| Why Libertarians Need To Change Their View On Immigration in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Natew
Posts: 66
Incept: 2009-12-16
IN
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What about the libertarian stance that you can have open boarders and letting people come and go doesn't matter?
This would have several prerequisites though of course:
-No FSA (TANF, SNAP, EMTALA, ETC)
-Stiffer penalties for not paying your taxes (no cash workers)
-being able to work/migrate freely doesn't lead to or necessitate citizenship
If they want to come and live freely, not drawing on the .gov let them. In my opinion it isn't the immigrants exactly its the stuff they are taking/using up without replenishing it.
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Regrubun
Posts: 548
Incept: 2008-12-30
Sioux City, IA
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The percentages don't add up to 100%. I think the total is incorrect and is throwing your percentages off or am I not reading this right?
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Viperjason
Posts: 1156
Incept: 2008-03-06
Reno
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I think it would be a better interpretation if homemakers, students/children, retirees, and unemployed were indented to represent the original table. That way when people look at it they see that all those occupations are part of the general category of No occupation.
Otherwise one might add up all the numbers and find they are over 100%.
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Genesis
Posts: 130779
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Yes they do Reg -- the "No occupation" category has the ones under it as sub-categories. The table display is a bit munged -- let me see if I can fix it.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Drench
Posts: 28631
Incept: 2009-11-10
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Quote:That is, 76% of the legal immigrants coming into the country last year who were given permanent residence status are not producing anything in the economy. Well... some of them are... in the underground economy. |
Regrubun
Posts: 548
Incept: 2008-12-30
Sioux City, IA
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I get it now...Thanks!
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Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
CT, the UNconstitution State
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I was on this 10+ years ago over on Freerepublic. I was always amazed at how MSM is fixated with the number of "20 million illegals" currently in the US where records clearly show that between 2-3 million come traipsing across our borders every year.
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...burp
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Mpilar
Posts: 5611
Incept: 2009-01-05
Nashville, TN
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The question I have is...would immigration (legal or illegal) be any kind of a problem if there was no welfare of any kind? I doubt it...and it would definitely fit in with Libertarian views since stealing from one to give to another violates that. I personally feel that without the stolen food and money available to everybody, immigration of all types would drop dramatically...being left only to those who are capable of supporting themselves - and thus contributing.
Additionally, 'legal' immigrants are not allowed to be on any state assistance for two years after getting their permanent residency card.
From the numbers above, the bulk of the 'unemployed' appear to be students and homemakers (wives of those that are working?) and only 8.84% are actually unemployed adding to our unemployment problem. Do I understand this correctly?
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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
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Lowbeyond
Posts: 16930
Incept: 2008-02-11
CO aka West NJ/East CA
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The rational approach to immigration is a massive brain drain of other countries
You let immigrants come in when they are a net positive to the country they are entering. In effect your net standard of living increases at the expense of others.
TANSTAAFL
Of course this applies to every country not just the US. So rationally you would want a system that makes it easier then your competitor for a newly minted immigrant to succeed and be a net positive, rather then a drain. In general, conditions conducive to that will correlate well with increased personal and economic liberty vs a set of restrictive policies/laws/regulations that serve the entrenched interests at the expense if new competitors.
However, since our country looks to be based on Fraud and Cronyism held together by a Mass Delusion taught in middle school civics classes, one really wonders why this matters. In that case, it does seem necessary to entertain why our immigration policy is the way it is.
Surely it is not so simple that a net poorer, less skilled population is easier to control by air dropping presents in exchange for their slavery.
Nah It can't be. We are Different, we are Special !
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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
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Searcy17
Posts: 103
Incept: 2011-05-17
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There isn't any such thing as the "libertarian party".
Some believe in states' powers, others don't. (doma, drugs, gays)
Some believe in a standing army, others don't.
Some believe in an absolute abortion right, others support the state's defense of life.
Some want a gold standard, others(Jim Rogers) claim it will never work.
Some believe in open borders, others(Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman) say you can't do that.
Some believe it is well within the purview of government to regulate against fraud, and litigate contracts, others believe in a totally free market, where people construct their own contracts and have due diligence against bank malfeasance.
And on and on.
In short, the libertarians(like all parties) have a guiding principle, but would be just as bad in power. There would be nonstop fights and disagreements. I laugh when libertarians rip the Republican party. Guess what, there is no litmus test to join a party. You can't make people follow the platform. Read that again. Republicans from different parts of the country do what the hell they want, and the whole party gets blamed. The ones that try to do the right things aren't supported, verbally or financially...instead we get sophistry about how they're all the same.
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Rjazz117
Posts: 17800
Incept: 2007-09-11
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Why am I decidedly unshocked by these figures?
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 “To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson |
Aquapura
Posts: 131
Incept: 2012-04-19
Land of 10,000 taxes
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My ex was a legal immigrant from Canada. I could take an anti-immigration stance based on how that relationship worked out but we do need skilled immigrants from time to time. Likewise I think qualified Americans should be allowed to freely expatriate and work in foreign lands. What I'm not talking about is the over half-million people that come here and do nothing. Having been through the immigration process I've sat in offices at USCIS/Homeland Security and seen the people in there. Let me tell you, very few will be selling insurance or sitting at some desk job. The experience opened my eyes to the immigration problem.
The solution is simple, no freebies for anyone that isn't a citizen. Also no anchor babies or other BS policy. Yes, America is a "melting pot" but it's not a free cookie jar either. Come here and work and you should have a chance to succeed. Come on the take and you should get nothing and be forced to go home. Come here to commit crime and you should be in a maximum security federal PMITA prision that is not more comfortable than the life you'd live in your 3rd world home.
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Geschrei
Posts: 472
Incept: 2009-02-23
Online
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Thanks for Tickering this, Karl.
I firmly believe that every single significant problem the US faces going forward is being made worse, and less solvable, by our immigration policy. I defy anyone of any ideological persuasion to come up with a rationalization for adding upwards of a million people a year, every year, without it adversely affecting issues that they hold dearly.
The only potential advantage in increasing US population through legal immigration is increased GDP growth, which I believe net of increased social and infrastructure spending is probably a losing proposition, just as each dollar of debt added today increases GDP by less than a dollar. Returns have diminished to the point where it no longer makes economic sense to allow immigration on the level we have been for the past two decades.
And yet, none of our 'leaders' seem to remotely consider the possibility that we should restrict legal immigration, much less a total moratorium, which is my preference.
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“The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern.”
Lord Acton (1834 - 1902)
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Mpilar
Posts: 5611
Incept: 2009-01-05
Nashville, TN
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Quote:The solution is simple, no freebies for anyone that isn't a citizen. Fixed...otherwise, you'll see identity theft SKYROCKET in a most dramatic fashion. Of course, not mentioning that giving out stolen goods is immoral. 
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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
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End_the_bubbles
Posts: 9523
Incept: 2009-03-25
The New 3rd World
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Why would they work when many of them are getting checks mailed (or direct deposited) every month. They also get EBT cards recharged monthly as well.
Even though we don't really get those stats, it's still very likely true.
It's not just lack of contribution to society, they are in fact a massive drain being part of the FSA!
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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.
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Joshua_d
Posts: 163
Incept: 2010-08-26
Lenoir, NC
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Reality. Always. Wins.
More and more people are starting to realize that immigration, like all things, can have a positive effect in the proper proportion. Obviously, immigration in the USA is way out of proportion in all the wrong places. Soon enough, people will also realize that the "diversity is strength" mantra is a lie as well.
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Steph4liberty
Posts: 1684
Incept: 2010-10-22
Raleigh, NC
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Quote:Come here to commit crime and you should be in a maximum security federal PMITA prision that is not more comfortable than the life you'd live in your 3rd world home. No. Deportation...get them the hell out of here. I don't want my tax dollars going to fund a federal prison to house these *******s. Whether they're sleeping on cement bunks in that prison with no tv or comforts of any kind, the prison still has to be funded with taxpayer dollars. No thank you. Don't let the door hit them on the ass on the way out.
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"Man will never be free until the last Banker is strangled with the entrails of the last Politician" - unknown
"This isn't a market anymore, it's a computer game." - Drench
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Dagge
Posts: 51
Incept: 2008-05-16
Tilton, NH
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Hm, I seem to remember the grace period for any sort of assistance was 10 years, or rather you had to get someone to sign they'd be liable for compensating the .gov for it. This was in 2010 when I got my permanent residence. My wife's parents signed for me. I wonder how much money is collected for this kind of compensation.
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Mpilar
Posts: 5611
Incept: 2009-01-05
Nashville, TN
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Quote:Why would they work when many of them are getting checks mailed (or direct deposited) every month. They also get EBT cards recharged monthly as well. How does this sit with legal immigrants (I'm assuming that's the chart above) not being able to get welfare for 2 years after getting their permanent residency visas?
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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8853
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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How about this? We allow all of them to apply for residency status. Either they are married to someone who has a job or they have a job. Other than that they are sent home. If they become unemployed they are eligible for 26 weeks of unemployment and then are sent home if they do not have a job.
Anyone who does not register and is caught in the country is sent to work camp for a year and then deported. Anyone who is caught hiring those who are not registered is sent to work camp for a year and fined 100k.
There that solves the problem of all those bleeding hearts that are pro amnesty. It is hard line for those that want the leaches gone.
Personally my American Dream is a million Haitians swimming back to Hispaniola with a Mexican under each arm but I highly doubt I'll live to see it.
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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Mpilar
Posts: 5611
Incept: 2009-01-05
Nashville, TN
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Quote:Anyone who does not register and is caught in the country is sent to work camp for a year and then deported. Anyone who is caught hiring those who are not registered is sent to work camp for a year and fined 100k. The corporations that run the prison system in the US would be beating off to this statement alone. Slavery is so much easier than addressing the real problems of why they come here illegally isn't it? Of course, the Americans who would lose their jobs to the free labor would just be out of luck...as they are with all prison work programs...but that's the price we pay.
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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
Online
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Bravo, Mr. Denninger. It's nice to find someone with a finger on the pulse of society with the ***** to speak the truth.
Listen, even if an illegal indigent comes here to work and to be productive - most the time he works off the books - but even if he's plugged into the SS system how much does he actually contribute to the tax base making $10/hr? If he's got 3 kids that means the taxpayers spend $30,000 for their public education @ $10,000 a shot. What about the ER healthcare costs? What about driving around w/o a license or insurance placing innocent citizen drivers at huge financial risk in the event of an injury accident? What about the incarceration costs, figuring about a fourth (actually closer to a third) of the jail beds in America are occupied by illegal foreigners? In California it costs $50,000 to house one inmate for a year. And the illegals there are entitled to free and, in many cases, better medical care than citizens who are underinsured or have no med insurance at all? In 2010 the Treasury Dept Inspector General said that ITIN holders (mostly illegals) collected $4.2B in child tax credits from the IRS and some news documentaries claimed that a good number of those kids claimed on paper were living south of the border. And now California is on the verge of approving AB 1081 which will forbid the local cops from turning over illegals to the feds for deportation unless the illegal has committed a violent felony. Even if the illegal has an active fed deportation order on the books - the locals will ignore it BY STATE LAW!!! This law would effectively turn California into an official sanctuary state. Sancutary cities have defied Fed immigration statues for years without any punishment. Now an entire state is jumping on board and it will spread like a cancer. One reason San Bernadino filed for bankruptcy is due to their huge illegal population that sucks resources out of the system. Now the plan is to saturate the system with more of the same. Illegal immigration and the failed policy that encourages legal immigrant leeches to steal resources from productive citizens is killing the country!
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
CT, the UNconstitution State
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Quote:The question I have is...would immigration (legal or illegal) be any kind of a problem if there was no welfare of any kind? 20 years ago a guy could make a really decent living framing houses. Then in came "the swarm" and they under cut US citizens. Apparently the contractors made out here by the FEDGOV turning a blind eye. The Contractors were able to save money. Have they passed this savings along to the home buyer? LOL Same goes for Auto Body repair shops.
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...burp
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Mrbill
Posts: 7857
Incept: 2008-10-19
North Carolina
Online
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Quote:What about driving around w/o a license or insurance placing innocent citizen drivers at huge financial risk in the event of an injury accident? This argument drives me nuts. You do realize that the minimum required insurance is 10-25K in most states? Do you know what that pays for if you get seriously hurt? Jack ****. There's probably 50 million people driving today that have the legal amount of insurance and couldn't actually pay your losses if they injured you in an accident. Anyway, the other three-quarters of people in America's jails cost a metric ****-ton too. How many could we let out tomorrow and not notice? This is a symptom, not a cause. |
