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| Ten Things Update 2012 in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Spigot
Posts: 253
Incept: 2009-03-02
North East
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Gen, I love ya, man, but IMO the odds of the top dogs doing what you and me know is the "right" thing are about as remote as Jon Corzine volunteering to flip burgers for a living at MickyD's. I am preparing for hyperinflation.
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Drip, drip, drip...
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Nohype
Posts: 39
Incept: 2011-03-19
United States
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I'm sure you've explained why cheating is so pernicious, but I don't remember seeing it, Genesis.
I'm not talking about cheating in a game with other players (which I have seen many times here). We can all see the obvious badness of that, as the spoils of the cheating go exclusively to the cheaters and must, by definition, come at the expense of everyone else (although I'm not sure this is clear to marks when there are enough layers erected between them and the cons).
But, cheating yourself is just as bad or worse. Let's take diet for example. As you now know, going "on" a diet is a cheat in and of itself. One must change lifestyle. If you "cheat" on the basics of what you're trying to do, you simply transfer the consequences elsewhere, which then always come back to bite you sooner or later. (Of course, there's always the old standby of telling yourself comforting lies while assiduously avoiding the mirror.)
I think people let politicians get away with cheating on economic "growth" because they either think they're in on the scam now or are going to be able to get in on it in the future.
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Wearedoomed
Posts: 3584
Incept: 2009-01-14
slightly red state
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I know that getting completely out of debt is a good thing. However, while there's no way we can currently pay off our mortgage, we're paying about as much on it per month as the rent would be for a one-bedroom apartment. That's the only long-term debt we have; we pay off our credit cards every month. Can the mortgage still "go bad" in some way?
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And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Genesis
Posts: 130691
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Yes -- what happens if you lose your job?
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Wearedoomed
Posts: 3584
Incept: 2009-01-14
slightly red state
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It's a fixed-rate mortgage, so the rate won't - OK, shouldn't - explode on us during a job loss. Also, if one of us loses his job (I'm FT, the wife is PT), the one who lost his job stays home with the kids (no more daycare), our vacation budget is cut to zero, etc. We have at least as much in savings (spread out amongst several local credit unions) as you suggest, even in the case where we both lose our jobs, and we stash a significant surplus every month, unlike just about everyone in our age group, it seems...
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And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Shanearthur
Posts: 85
Incept: 2010-03-12
na
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@Karl, In your first graphic, the blue debt line does beneath the red GDP Line. In layman's terms, what happened there? If I'm a casual observer with limited financial knowledge, I'm thinking something good happened in that 2009-1020 period, but I suspect I'm wrong about that.
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Jal
Posts: 512
Incept: 2009-03-25
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Quote:Spain now claims to be "locked out of the market" at a 6% 10 year bond yield. Let this sink in for a minute. It was not long ago that a 6% bond yield was considered reasonable. This ought to tell you exactly where everyone in the Eurozone is -- they cannot afford the interest payments if and when the bond market normalizes. Consider that a 6% mortgage was considered incredibly good just a few years ago but Spain cannot afford to pay that rate on their borrowing. If 6% is bad for Spain then what would you say it is for people paying 29% for credit cards? There use to be a time when people did not have mortgages, debts and did not give the majority of their income to the financial institutions. The system has been rigged in favor of the financial system. Extraction of your earnings by any and all means.
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 748
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
Online
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I am troubled by the difference between the previous 2011 Ten Things and this one.
Specifically, the 2011 version had individual actions: savings targets, get out of debt, shun TBTF institutions, cardio, prepare to shelter in place/bug out etc.
Your 2012 version has actions that can only be addressed as a group: revalue pensions, revamp medical system, etc.
Given the current political context and the MSM's over the level of discourse, the the collective actions you talk about are unlikely. Example: Rick Perry was willing to call Social Security a ponzi scheme. The meme never caught on, and indeed isn't being addressed by the current candidates because the premise is literally too awful to contemplate by the masses.
A more personal example: my parents are on social security. When I've talked about the consequences of "If this goes on..." they think they are entitled to it because they paid in all their lives... They just can't grasp that its just one long con by the system.
Your 2012 list is not something I can get a handle on because its all about collective action. I'm afraid that a year from now, the conversation will be "KD told us so".
I've chosen to shelter-in-place; now I'm thinking more and more favorably towards the bug out option.
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Delapaz
Posts: 61
Incept: 2009-04-29
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RE: Shelter-in-place vs. Bugout
How are your neighbors? Are they FSA, or are they working citizens?
Inner city/DT is probably a bugout situation or at least not long term tenable in an economic collapse. Think Bronx, circa 1978.
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Captbill
Posts: 842
Incept: 2008-07-22
Arizona's West Shore
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Quote:A more personal example: my parents are on social security. When I've talked about the consequences of "If this goes on..." they think they are entitled to it because they paid in all their lives... They just can't grasp that its just one long con by the system Everyone I know on SS or SS disability has this exact same attitude. And when I say--well it won't be around for me they scoff--thinking I am nuts.
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Incredible. There's Smith and he's standing there and he's got the iceberg warning in his ****ing hand, excuse me, his hand, and he's ordering more speed. Lewis Bodine, RMS Titanic
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Smacktle
Posts: 1359
Incept: 2009-01-20
Texas
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Bug out and become a refugee?! Depends on where you are.
My in laws own a business. They are in their 70s and take SS. They justified it by saying that by God we paid in, we are gonna get ours! My mom gets SS and lives in a place I call the Taj Mahal. High classed place it is. She says that she wouldn't be able to live there without the SS.
When I tell them that they are part of the problem and that they are stealing from their grandkids, they don't like it much and the truth doesn't affect what they do. Sad situation it is.
Mom will probably end up living with me or my brother when this all shakes out because she won't listen to me and get out of the market.
Everybody is looking for the the golden goose that is gonna save them, when they need to be looking for the golden goose that is gonna save us!
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The faults of the burglar are the qualities of the financier. - George Bernard Shaw
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Spigot
Posts: 253
Incept: 2009-03-02
North East
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7% is the real SHTF figure for a Euro country to implode. If 6% botchs things up in terms of the ability of the nation to pay interest, then things truly are Eff'ed. The truth of the matter is that the entire ediface is caving in on itself. As with most self created crisii, those who can do something about it will not do what needs to be done due to fear of the "results" of pre-emptively "causing pain". This has been repeated throughout history. People will not choose to make things fail if given the choice to do self destructive things which appear as if you are doing something about the problem. Kind of like the way drug addicts do things.
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Drip, drip, drip...
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Obsidian
Posts: 2445
Incept: 2008-10-10
Eagle Mountain, Utah
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Quote:If you haven't completed that list -- especially including getting out of debt and having a solid reserve of at least six months of living expenses (and 12-24 months is better) -- it may well be too late. I view "having a solid reserve" as being the highest priority now. Debt is now secondary to me. If one loses their income stream, then having made pre-payments in order to reduce the mortgage quickly won't help much. Also, those six months (or more) of savings need to be protected from creditors. Don't keep those savings in the same bank that holds the mortgage, car loan, etc. They can and will grab the savings! In general, if anyone has debt it's time to downsize and eliminate it, not pay it down. Unload the underlying asset (house, car, boat, mistress, etc). Can't retire the debt by selling the underlying asset because it's underwater? If so, then it might be time for some serious introspection.
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232-Th + n --> 233-Th --> 233-Pa --> 233-U. Trolling is a art.
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Iou
Posts: 1025
Incept: 2009-03-16
The Twilight Zone
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The only debt I have is on a house (Deed of Trust) and I'd like to sell. I'm going home and putting a "For Sale" up. My plan is to sell it if I can and if not live in it as long as I can. If I lose my job the bank will get it back. I'll quit making payments the day I’m out of work. My State does non-judicial foreclosures when there is a Deed of Trust in place. They can get whatever they can for the house. http://www.foreclosurelaw.org/Missouri_F.... For those talking about bugging out, you better have a place to go. If you think you're going to live out the woods you better think twice.
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"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."- Frédéric Bastiat
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Wearedoomed
Posts: 3584
Incept: 2009-01-14
slightly red state
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Obsidian wrote..Unload the underlying asset (house, car, boat, mistress, etc). One exception, of course, is in a situation like mine, where a one-bedroom apartment would cost at least as much per month as my current housing costs (fixed-rate mortgage PITI + utilities + ...). Other than that, however, sell, Mortimer, sell!
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And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Reason: verbs are our friends
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Aztrader
Posts: 6648
Incept: 2007-09-10
Scottsdale, AZ
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Unfortunately, society will collapse because the politicians are more interesting in keeping the ponzi going then fixing anything. Due to the fact that most of them have no clue about money management or business management, we are doomed at best.
Personally, We are seeing sales pick up for self defense products. People are starting to get it. Too bad a majority will wait until the last minute before they panic and have to use their broom as a defense weapon.
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Maybe-not
Posts: 73
Incept: 2011-04-26
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The reason the boomers can't grasp what we here understand is because "credit" fueling rising asset prices (cars, homes, stocks) is all they know. It was there entire life. That and arguing who was right, the jackass or the elephant. Asking them to understand what is happening is asking them to forget everything they know. They used to call they're grand parents or parents crazy because they had a stockpile of spam in the basement. Preperation for a rainy day was considered "crazy" long ago. I would give anything to have a conversation with my great granfather today.
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Tdray
Posts: 249
Incept: 2008-12-11
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I'm covered on everything except the mortgage. I'm wondering if PMI will cover me in event of default. Wife forced me to buy a house. Because of everything going on, I didn't want to. I put as little of my own money in so I wouldn't lose it. Of course if I do default it will be after talking to an attorney.
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Nma
Posts: 121
Incept: 2010-03-16
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I don't understand why a mortgage continues to matter if the S well and truly HTF. Or any debt for that matter. It would seem more likely that your most important steps would be to build a decent sized stockpile of everything from cash and PMs to food and water, no? Next on the list (or first, depending on who you talk to) would be self defense weapons and another stockpile of ammunition.
If the economy is burning and people are rioting, who cares about losing your job? Are you really going to be heading off to work? For some of us that means leaving a family at home during what will likely be the most tumultuous time this country has ever faced. No thanks.
Mr. Banker can grab Mr. Sheriff and come kick me out if it comes to that. Maybe Mr. Postal Worker will still be delivering mail so I'll at least know when to expect them.
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Local_yokel
Posts: 120
Incept: 2008-12-18
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@Nma: because it won't be a Hollywood Mad Max scenario in most places, or for long. Google Argentina ferfal (NOT feral) for the book written by a guy who lived through a collapse 12 years ago; interesting articles on the blog. According to him most survival guides are wrong for urban survival. I guess we will find out at some point.
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 748
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
Online
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Quote:don't understand why a mortgage continues to matter if the S well and truly HTF. Or any debt for that matter. More likely than not, the collapse of civilization into Wild Wild West of the movies wont happen. What will happen is that we will loose the productivity gains of the last few decades as trade is shut down. In that case, everyone could basically be working part time jobs for whatever needs doing in the immediate neighborhood. The payments system will still be functional, but no one has any money. Scripp might become popular the way it is in Greek villages that cant bring in Euros. Having debts denominated in dollars which are hard to earn will be a real hardship. That is why its good to get out of debt now, because the job/income that supported the debt could vanish.
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Uncleoxidant
Posts: 2200
Incept: 2007-07-10
Stumptown
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Quote:I'm covered on everything except the mortgage. I'm wondering if PMI will cover me in event of default. Tdray: PMI won't do anything for you, it's to protect the lender.
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I am not a consumer. I am a Citizen!
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Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Region formerly known as the United States
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Quote:This graph tells the tale: last calendar year the Federal Government added $1.225 trillion in debt, or 8% of GDP. Ceasing deficit spending will result in more than an 8% contraction since there is a "pass-through" effect and thus a multiplier. Economists argue over exactly what that number is but if we (conservatively) assume around 1.2 is correct then an instant contraction of 10% in GDP will occur in the United States. Not to mention that the US GDP phigure is so jiggered that it means very little. Actual real-organic GDP is WAY LESS than $15T+ - but the gov deficit number is much closer to the truth (still skewed low from reality I'd bet). Point being, the actual decline could easily exceed 20% of the real GDP - let's say putting the final number very near $10T. JMO.
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Seanmiller
Posts: 80
Incept: 2009-10-29
North Denver
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Unfortunately I havent been able to move the needle too much for myself. The biggest thing I was able to do (THANK GOD) was move out of Chicagoland and near family that has a place up in the mountains.
Otherwise, Ive got guns and know how to use them. I am reasonably fit. We have enough food in the house to shelter in place for 2-3 weeks without having to get out ("No Honey, we need to shop at Costco because of how much cheaper it is!").
My biggest problems? Depleted reserves due to the move and job change (I took a fair haircut, although my wife got a promotion in the deal that should take affect soon...for what its worth). Student loan debt that will take at least 2 years to pay off if we get aggressive and ignore having a life or saving. And most of all, a 4 month old.
Yeah...
Times will be interesting, thats for sure.
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