I guess part of the speculation is if Trayvon's hand was on the gun which was a reason the gun did not function properly.

If your hand is on the gun when its fired, what forensics would be available to verify that. Heat (burn(s), powder residue samples abnormal, and perhaps a pinched piece of flesh, anything else.

Autopsy should have checked for that shouldn't they.

Then George said in his statement that Trayvon said "you got it". Of course Crump has changed it so people think he said "you got me". Big difference.

If forensics turns out that there is evidence Trayvon had his hand on the gun it will be spun as a "natural" reaction. I wonder about that. How many of you would try to grab gun out of someones' hand even if you're wailing on them. If you do what would you think the mindset was.

If there is forensics of Trayvons hand on the gun along with Georges statement of "you got it". We will have to wait and see.

From http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012....

Quote:

The handgun was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. The police took immediate custody of the weapon from Zimmerman’s holster when they arrived on scene. The gun was recovered with a full magazine and only the chambered round had been fired. The shell casing was also recovered near the sidewalk and grass.

This is a condition associated with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause this condition is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.

This would indicate, as the coroner’s office affirmed, that specific gunshot residue patterns and cuts were present in certain places on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), and that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired.

i dont know how to find coroner's report to corroborate above.

All I know about this is there is a tie to the "If you don't vote for Obama, you are a racist". The Democrats haven't run a man or woman for President since I was old enough to vote that I would shed a tear for if he got knocked in the head. Literally all the rest of them were white, save for Jesse Jackson. Between Obama and Berlescone, I don't know which one is the biggest character to lead a major country. I don't know of a leader in the modern world that I would trust with my check book, if a check over $5 would clear.

This mess is a lead into the next election. Count on it. The gal in Chicago still has to worry about paying for her gasoline. If she doesn't have FSA health care, she has a real problem paying for her health care. She might not be too interested in voting this time, being disillusioned. The problem is the whole thing just might backfire, as whitey and the hispanic population just might be tired of this nonsense.

Here is the latest from Reverend Manning

http://atlah.org/2012/04/26/the-new-negr....
http://atlah.org/2012/04/26/cult-foolish....

If the gun fired in close struggle for control of it, there are probably wounds on trayvon where his hands were on it, recoil is flesh tearing, right? the coroner should find wounds on one or both of them.

n/m

The autopsy is not available to the public,..yet.

There was a hearing today brought by the Martin family (Crump). It concerned the website George put up (that is now gone) and the amount of money it raised and that George didn't tell anyone how much was in it. About 200K raised in a short period of Time. The Martin family wanted his bail revoked because he didn't tell anyone and it made it easy to get bail because his family said they would have trouble raising it. No one asked George about this and was available for testimony was Omara's response.

Doesn't seem to be a matter of concern to the judge it seems.

The Martin family has a website up to for donations.

https://www.wepay.com/donations/3819

Be sure to read it, and take a gander at the donor choices.

and the Parents have quit their jobs to work full Time on the case and I guess that is where the donations are going.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23....

Quote:

Trayvon's parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, have left their jobs since their son died, in order to completely commit to fighting for justice. But their expenses are mounting, making it difficult to fund their advocacy efforts, Michael Hall, marketing director and managing partner for MediumFour, told the Huffington Post.

To help fund the costs of traveling, organizing rallies and developing a nonprofit in Trayvon Martin's memory, the family has organized a campaign -- Justice For Trayvon Martin.

At press time, Justice For Trayvon Martin had raised $6,065, but Hall -- whose company has donated its marketing efforts to developing the campaign -- said that the family will likely burn through that much money in a month. The civil lawsuit could drag on for more than a year. The family will also need more money to establish -- and grow -- a nonprofit to raise awareness for hate crimes and to work to change the Stand Your Ground law.

CBS ran the story on todays hearing. Bob Schaeffer on CBS newscast discussed with the reporter "the importance" that George Zimmerman's CREDIBILITY must be in question now. Isn't that rich, the media is now concerned over CREDIBILITY, at least they didn't put up No limits 12 year old photo.

EDITED for:

I just was looking over the website for Justice for Trayvon Martin.

There is a "trademark" symbol?? after the word JUSTICE. It appears more than once around the page.

Sorta weird because I don't think they can trade mark the word Justice, can you??.

OR its a "gimmick" T M is also Trayvon Martin. "JUSTICE trayvon martin FOR TRAYVON MARTIN, making it look like in a way they have the trademark (rights) to JUSTICE>


and read the comments, there was one guy for waiting and seeing all the facts and he was jumped on a like a mouse by a group of cats.

Omara has put up the George Z defense site

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/

Reading the comments over on wagist.com someone came across something interesting in the court papers that are now available online.

The line in the court affadavit about the gunshot wound to the chest is redacted.

According to the posts the black out was not there when it was originally submitted, but has been changed in the last few days.

I opened the pdf of the court documents now posted online by the court and sure enough that line is now blacked out.

http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.ht.... scroll down to probable cause affadavit.

Sorta strange that a court submission is now redacted. If the detectives that prepared it made a mistake, ....

Many of the documents in that listing DO have redacted info. It was redacted before submission for identity reasons etc. This though is the original affadavit used in court.

Another weird thing is a black guy making a youtube video says in the thug world this, "you got it" is what a thug says if he lost in an interaction with another thug.

Crump is said to be now saying that Trayvon was "shot in the heart" lately. Man if they change that affadavit for that kind of explosive language, wowwww. Could you even say something if you took a hollow point to the heart.

Quote:

Sorta strange that a court submission is now redacted.

Especially when the un-redacted one is all over the internet.
I dont understand why they would do that.

Maybe it's something to do with planned civil case?

Quote:

Could you even say something if you took a hollow point to the heart.

I don't know from experience but i think so. Many years ago i read(can't remember where) that a signicicantly punctured heart lowers blood pressure and you'll pass out in maybe fifteen seconds.
I guess it'd depend too on which part of heart got punctured for right half feeds lungs and left feeds body.
But i'm speculating. Is there a doctor in the house?

I do know from some heart attacks where i flatlined that on low blood pressure you just fade out but can speak a few words on the way.

old jim

Bikemechanic,

My speculation on "shot in the chest" being redacted is that the bullet entry point differs, such that it was an abdominal entry. When the body was found, it was on it's back, and if there was an exit point, it could have been in the back across from the chest area, but not so in the front. So the actual entry point described in the autopsy report may differ from the officers observations.

Nice work.

Myself i agree with those who think the ambulance chasers want to own the subdivision via wrongful death suit against the homeowners' association.

I just wonder....
If Zimmerman is found to have acted in self defense he's immune from civil liability.
But if they can spin this into an accident while struggling over a gun, then does he lose that protection?
That'd explain removing the claim of who shot whom.

The common chestnut about an "immediate stop" is that it requires one of two things:

1. Massive damage to the nervous system (e.g. severance of the spinal cord, destruction of the brain, etc) that prevents further action.

2. Circulatory collapse resulting in an effective zero blood pressure (e.g. massive disruption of the heart and/or pulmonary arteries)

Nonetheless "immediate stop" is somewhat of a misnomer. (1) will result in it, but (2) doesn't quite result in an immediate stop. The time period involved however is in fractions of a second to a handful of seconds before consciousness is lost.

The mental shock of being shot is often sufficient to produce an effective immediate stop even if the wound does not result in (1) or (2). However, this is not able to be counted on, as an assailant that is on drugs (especially things like meth) may be effectively blanked to the pain and psychological reaction of a bullet wound or worse, such a wound might trigger a "berzerker-style rage" rather than a stop, leaving only nervous system disruption and circulatory collapse as the means to effect an immediate cessation of hostilities.

According to sources, after Trayvon was shot, Trayvon said "You got it, you got it".

I can believe that. It is consistent with a gunshot that hit major parts of the circulatory system; the time until collapse from such a wound would be anywhere from a fraction of a second to single-digit seconds, but not zero.

Analog, could be the path they will take, say George pulled the gun before the fight. Don't know how they can show any evidence of it to get it before a jury, but they will try most likely.

I've heard that bandied about Bert, but after this amount of Time passing, and the State detectives should have read the autopsy report first, they should have known what the evidence was. If not, then again it shows the amount of effort to present the document. I haven't had Time to verify that Crump is making the "heart" statement. If it was abdomen shot that path would either be straight up sorta, or a hollow point that bounced off a bone structure/spine. From a position of George on his back.

reports say the gun had Hollow points, and people recommend them for CCP and other because there is less likely a chance of it going through and harming a bystander. Other side of the coin is it is made to do more damage. People are taught in classes that you shoot CENTER MASS which is the chest. Because if you are fear for your life trying for a smaller less life threatening target is less likely, and if they get the gun they will turn it on you. If you pull it and they advance, then that is considered threatening behavior. Not sure how that helps the Travyon postion.

A critical piece of evidence is now redacted for some reason. Seems to me the autopsy report should contain a diagram showing the entry point, deflections, etc.

From what I have heard its pretty evident which place a hollow point enters and where the exit wound is (if there is one). One is generally much larger that the other, from what I ;ve been told

My thoughts on redacting - just an opinion.

When the court (jury) makes its decisions, its based on the evidence presented. If something is redacted, it won't be presented. Both sides get to argue about what can and can not be entered into evidence, and the judge rules.

"According to sources, after Trayvon was shot, Trayvon said "You got it, you got it"."

That proves a life or death situation for Zimmerman. Obviously, they were fighting for the gun and when Tray got shot, he wisely stopped fighting for it because he did not want to get shot again. However it was too late.

PS - another reason to carry a revolver as they are much harder to prevent from cycling.

over at the:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/

this has been posted (quote below). There is also an interview from Geraldo with OMara and Crump. It was last Sunday I think, but it wasn't "promoted" it seems so few knew it was going to happen.

This is what they are working on now. Scroll down the main page to learn more about JULISON COMMUNICATIONS. They had already learned about their influence in the media campaign. There is a "supposed" response from the head guy Julison.

Quote:

We are hopeful that by the end of the day today we will have been able to complete at least part 1 in the network of Julison Communications and their attachments to Team Crump, Natalie Jackson, the race-baiting industrialists including Sharpton, Jackson, Jealous et al, along with deep-rooted connections to the Congressional Black Caucus, and Black Civil Rights Leaders…… INCLUDING THE PIGFORD CASE AND PAYOFFS which leads a significant trail up to the doors of the White House and Eric Holder (by way of his sister-in-law Vivian Malone-Morris). Continue reading

Julison Communications is the reason for the media campaign that started back in March which began the campaign to get George ARRESTED.

http://julisoncom.com/

Their case studies page at their site shows some example of their "work" one of them is a "case" from Memphis, I remember this shooting. She "finally" receives JUSTICE when she gets a civil payout, thanks to the help of Julison communications, not when the police arrested and convicted the killer after a long investigation. Justice=Money from the taxpayers according to my reading of the Julison site.

Also please read the response to "JULISON" email to Conservative tree house gang.

EDIT

I looked up that case in the local press to see about the civil suit. The guy admitted that he shot the Code Enforcement officer partly because he was black. They then used this to file a Fed case for a hate crime and violation of civil rights.

Quote:

“Average Self Defense Shot Distance?”
Posted on December 3, 2011 by Stranger

Someone stopped by searching for “average self defense shot distance.”

For starters, a startling number of self defense shootings are made at contact or near contact range. So the median distance for a self defense shooting is much less than many think it is.

Years ago, long before the internet, a state crime lab kept tabs on self defense shootings. The median distance between an assailant and an armed person acting in self defense when the first shot was fired was seven feet. Close enough that the assailant and his intended victim could probably have clasped hands had they wanted to. And I seriously doubt there has been much change in that.

Normally, the extreme range in these affairs seems to be 22 feet, a foot more than 7 yards. About the same distance as the length of a full sized American station wagon. Of course, there are social affairs at longer distances each year, but they are comparatively rare. Being rare, they have very little statistical effect.

If you are planning to buy a gun for self defense, it would be a great deal better to buy a gun for close range defense than one for long range effectiveness.

Stranger

http://extranosalley.com/?p=17391

Since most self defense social work involving a firearm occurs at or near contact distance, for carry -- even though it's not as cool as a wonder nine -- think shrouded-hammer revolver...

You notice also that the media is hauling out Rodney King ... They are just trying to egg things on !

I'm thinking the Ruger LCR in 38spl would just be about the best carry anywhere CHL weapon.

Yeah Short, personally I prefer the Smiths. But any which way you go, a Crimson Trace will make a snubby pretty doggon effective out to seven yards too.

The race baiters EXPOSED

Julison communications llc run/founded/ by Ryan Julison.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/ has updated their investigation of where the media campaign came from and the ties between all the players. update 13 for those playing along.

you will discover a lot and be given links to flesh it out. Its a web and would take a lot of writing to flesh it out.

The connection to the White House and the Prez wanting a boy like Travyon shown.

All the players and their ties are available.

The man in charge of the Media campaign.

Ryan Julison http://julisoncom.com/index.html

Mr. Julison has been in business in Florida filed 6/25/2009

Before that Ryan worked for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Ginn Bobbie Ginn at Ginn Resorts

bobby Ginn google that name to see what a "player" he is/was but is off the radar presently.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011....

"This link is to an article with a quote about an add campaign in Florida, you will love the waste of money for
unemployment


In the article a few paragraphs down reveals an interview with "ryan" about a media campaign. It states he worked for Ginn Resorts (see link above about Bobby Ginn) as their a former vice president of communications with Ginn Resorts

Now if you look at the Bobbie Ginn wiki page, what is B Ginn in trouble for

Quote:

Ginn started Ginn Resorts in 1998 (then the Ginn Company). The company owned land in Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, Vermont, Colorado, Bahamas and Saint Thomas. During the economic boom of early 21st century, Bobby Ginn developed many high-end resorts. When the real estate market collapsed during the Global financial crisis, he faced approximately 30 lawsuits from investors who alleged that he used deceptive and misleading trade practices. Ginn planned to "vigorously defend against these false allegations".[2]

Deceptive and Misleading trade practices, and a Vice President Title for Ryan probably means he was the Head of that Department.

As head of Communications he would have been involved in every aspect of the image, production, distribution et al for promotional materials, media, you name it.

And working for Ginn and all the things he was involved in, voila also all the ties he was able to make with media and others.

Oh my.....

Figured you would like that connection. ;)

Also Judge Lester is reported to have announced he is about to release the evidence. The names of witnesses WILL BE redacted. The defense has asked for this, because of fear for witnesses lives etc.

http://www.wdbo.com/news/news/local/judg....