From One Pigman To Another....
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2010-05-01 15:01
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
From One Pigman To Another....
 

It seems fitting that Berkshire's Buffett would support Goldman's Lloyd "100%":

“He’s done a great job running that firm,” Buffett said today in Omaha, Nebraska in a Bloomberg Television interview before the shareholders meeting for his Berkshire Hathaway Inc. “He’s smart. He’s high grade.”

Let's remember that Buffett's Berkshire is short size in the S&P on a "custom derivative contract" that he cannot walk away from (nor can they be exercised early against him.) 

The WSJ reports that he said:

Mr. Buffett, who invested $5 billion in Goldman at the height of the financial crisis, said he didn't believe that Goldman had acted improperly. Rather, counterparties to the deals, which plunged in value when the housing market fell apart in 2007, should be responsible for their own actions.

Mr. Buffett said he believed that one of the banks that had purchased Abacus deals in the transaction, the Dutch bank ABN Amro Group, was a sophisticated investor. "It's a little hard for me to get terribly sympathetic for a bank that made a bad credit deal," said Mr. Buffett.

The "sophistication" of the investor is irrelevant to a Rule 10b(5) case, as are all of the other complex elements of common fraud cases. Indeed, whether the misled party had reason to believe it was being lied to, had the opportunity to do diligence and failed and other things you must prove in a common fraud case do not apply here.

All the SEC needs to be able to prove is that either an intentional omission or a false statement was made that, had it not be omitted or made, would have led the investor to not make the investment they did in fact make.

That is, Rule 10b(5) sets forth a simple standard with little or no "wiggle room."

Warren went on to say:

He said a firm that had acted as an intermediary in the deal, ACA Management, had drifted from its original business of insuring municipal bonds into structured finance, a more complicated and risky business. He said he believes most press accounts haven't properly explained ACA's business model.

Does that include the alleged interlocking of high-level officials in both Goldman and ACA?

Of course he supports "The Bezzle"; when financial firms are expected to be 19% of S&P profits by the end of this year (up from 12% estimated for the first quarter) anything that impacts those earnings could lead to Berkshire having a wee problem with the mark-to-market on those PUTs.

Ripping people off is and has been such a fantastic business, you know.  Then there's this:

Buffett said he will discuss the trade at the center of the regulator’s suit later today at the meeting and “I will bet that of the 40,000 people in there, 39,900 of them have a misconception.”

Yeah well I don't own any of your stock so I won't be there.  Never mind that I wouldn't countenance the price-gouging that the airlines have engaged in this week for flights to and from that area either - fares more than double their usual going rate.

The latter, of course, is capitalism.  In point of fact I have no quarrel with it - I just refuse to pay.  No willing buyer here.

Clients who make trades with Goldman Sachs don’t rely on the bank for its opinions, Blankfein told Levin. “The thing we are selling to them is supposed to give them the risk they want,” Blankfein said.

There's nothing wrong with selling someone "the risk they want."

Making loans to someone who can't pay on the original terms is, however, wrong.  This was the genesis of the crisis.  It's also been a common tool of finance for the last twenty or even more years, especially in the commercial real estate environment. 

Loans that are effectively "interest only balloons" are imprudent in each and every case where there is no real skin in the game - that is, where the current collateral value pledged as security approaches or is the same as the principal on a loan that does not amortize.  Such a loan requires that the collateral value be stable or increase through the entire term, or the loan becomes "underwater" and thus extremely dangerous for the writer.  2/28 and 3/27 home loans, nearly all commercial real estate loans, Option ARMs and I/O loans all fall into this category when the combined loan-to-value ratio exceeds 80% at any time during the loan's term, as such a loan is effectively "naked" due to the foreclosure, remarketing and time value of money costs involved in securing performance if there is a default.

These loans are never "investment grade" and no amount of slicing, dicing and alleged "pooling of risk" will make them so.  Recessions and other business disruptions are often national or even global phenomena, and as a consequence there is no means available to pool risk and resolve that problem.  Securitization will allow some investors to have an investment-grade bond out of these things but the average risk across the entire pool is in fact increased by such machinations, because securitization costs money and that money must come from the cash flows on the underlying instruments.

That is, if the "real" risk is that 1 in 5 of these loans will ultimately default and when they do recovery will, on average, be 50%, then ten percent of the pool will be lost. If half the pool holders (through securitization) take zero loss then the remaining half must take a 20% loss.  This is math and no amount of "engineering" changes it.

So-called "financial innovation" is, in the main, an attempt to declare that 2 + 2 = 5.  This is inherently an artifice to which the underlying mathematical realities cannot yield, as 2 + 2 is in fact 4.

Let's remember too that Buffett objects to one of the clauses in the derivatives legislation currently on The Hill - that is, the requirement that all swaps that are underwater have cash (or equivalent) margin posted against them.

He argues that Berkshire should not have to do this because the original contract was written with "trust me" (that I'm solvent and able to pay) written in it, and that "sanctity of contract" controls.

No, Warren, it does not.

There is no contract at all if you promise to do something you're physically incapable of.  You and I cannot contract for me to jump over the Empire State Building, because I am physically incapable of performance.  Irrespective of what the claimed agreement says about penalties if I breach such an agreement, you will not be able to collect in a lawsuit, because in order for a contract to be valid we must not have entered into an agreement to do the impossible.

The problem with Berkshire's argument in this case is that under ordinary conditions everyone can perform.  It is only under extraordinary conditions that performance doesn't happen. 

But the buyer of the protection purchased it precisely to protect against an extraordinary set of circumstances! 

In other words, performance under the most-adverse possible scenario was the primary concern of the person on the other side of the transaction.  That is always the case in any "insurance-like" transaction - whether the risk being the catastrophe of a tornado, hurricane, flood, or - as in this case - financial meltdown.

The posting of collateral, of course, proves you can perform - especially if that posting is required daily, and as a position goes against you margin requirements increase by the amount you are underwater.

But this is exactly what the regulated derivatives markets require on a daily basis and they should!

That is, I can be "Short" the S&P 500, oil, or other regulated instruments all I want, but if the price rises the amount of money I have to have on deposit with my broker to guarantee that I can perform my end of the bargain goes up commensurately - and that amount is computed in real time.  I can also be "Long" these derivatives and if my position goes against me due to falls in the market I am likewise required to continue to post more and more margin to prove I can perform.

Why should anyone be able to create or maintain an instrument where this is not the case?

The entire reason we have (and had) a "systemic risk" problem is because institutions did not (and still do not!) have to post that collateral.  That is, they were not required to prove on a daily basis that their positions were money good or have them liquidated out from under them by force.

This in turn allowed (and allows) people to lie about the risk in the instruments they both write and hold.

A credit-default swap (protection against a default), for example, can never cost less than the actual risk of loss, if the intent is to actually provide that protection.  That is, such a product is inherently a negative sum game; the person writing the swap must make a profit to remain in business, and they must also price that swap at or above the actual level of risk in order to be able to pay (that is, remain in business!) 

So long as all derivative contracts require the nightly maintenance of margin against underwater positions there is no systemic risk.  The reason for this is simple - as positions go underwater the person on the "wrong" side is forced to pony up money to prove that they can perform their obligations to the other party.  When that underwater party runs out of money their positions are liquidated. 

This event might cause the firm involved to go bankrupt but since their positions were covered up to that point with actual money there is no "cascade of failures" that can occur - their counterparties in each and every case are made whole at that instant, in that their derivatives are "cashed" right then and there at the marked value as of that point, with the counterparty getting the money owed.

That event might cause additional stress in the system, but again, so long as the remaining parties that are trading have to continue to post their margin for underwater positions the entity on the other side is and should be fully secure.  The forcible unwind of these positions may cause further price deteriorations to occur, but again, this is not the realization of "systemic risk"; that is, a disorderly collapse where counterparties do not get paid.

The financial system, unfortunately, has become rife with fraud, and it all centers around these contracts where no cash margin requirements are enforced.  If I can write "protection" or "swaps" where I do not have to maintain cash margin against every penny of underwater exposure on a nightly basis then any event that exposes my deficiency in ability to pay causes an instantaneous set of cross-defaults.  That is, since I cannot pay the person on the other side of the transaction suddenly suffers a monstrous loss, which is likely to cause them to be unable to pay on their obligations.

There is only one way to prevent this from happening, and that is to force all financial products to be settled via an exchange, where the exchange is in fact the buyer for every seller and the seller for every buyer. The exchange must be mandated by law to collect and hold cash or cash-equivalent collateral in segregated escrow for each party executing trades through it sufficient to guarantee performance for each and every product that is open.

We do this today for listed options and futures contracts, and it works.  Firms and individual traders go out of business all the time as a consequence of margin calls, yet this does not "hurt" the party on the other side of the transaction - indeed, that party doesn't even know who their counterparty is because an exchange effectively "double-blinds" the transaction.  This both protects the market from manipulation for or against any single firm or participant and guarantees that the transactions entered into will clear.

If we do that and prosecute everyone who sells something that they're misrepresenting by either omission or commission (under already-existing Rule 10b5) then most of The Bezzle goes away.

But so does the ability of people like Buffett (in his financial businesses) and others (in theirs) to skim off outsize amounts of money from the economy.

Is it any wonder he "opposes" that?

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Grashopa
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When Buffet sold those puts, it was risk free money to him since he'll be dead anyway. However if the government changes the contract on him he will look like an idiot for having to post billions in margin on that position.

It is such a simple example of why margin is necessary and what is counter party risk. I certainly can't believe anyone would actually have entered into these contracts with Buffet or with AIG or with anyone. Just this fact alone should have everyone in wall street in jail for fraud against shareholders by buying "insurance" from someone where they have no guarantee of performace. I mean margin requirements are simply common sense aren't they? Everyone should be able to understand that.

EDIT- who bought the puts from Buffet? Can we see some shareholder lawsuits?

EDIT 2 - Can you recap the deal or link to it in your article? People need to understand the size of those puts Buffet sold.

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Aynrandfan
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Buffett is a fundamentally honest guy -- and he's absolutely right about the rules on "his" derivatives being changed in the middle of the game. As far as ability to pay, Berkshire has an incredible bundle of legitimate, valuable, and liquid assets -- Berkshire is quite a different entity than AIG, for example.

What Buffett is really saying, in plain English, is that the rules used to be one way, and now Congress is going to write the rules another way -- and that there needs to be some sort of rational allowance during such a transition, especially for those people who did, with honor, enter into such derivative contracts under the old rules.

I don't consider Buffett to be behaving here in a dishonorable way; he's essentially saying that changing the rules on him in the middle of the game is hardly fair, and of course, that is correct: it isn't fair. What it really is, in reality, is a bunch of ****tarded elected idiots who are attempting to write a thousand pages of fine-print to achieve a "regulation" of securities that they don't understand in the ****ing first place, and back-dating the law (to apply against people who did nothing illegal at the time) -- and who also face an election in 6 months and are doing everything they can to pimp their stupid asses to equally ignorant voters.

Buffett's protestations are entirely legitimate.

It's one thing to argue how things "should" be.

It's entirely another to argue that we're going to change the rules -- and that you are somehow an immoral and unethical criminal if the new rules, when back-dated (and enforced against you) somehow make a criminal out of you for doing something that was entirely legal during a prior period of time.

"Investing" does not -- and should not -- involve trying to make guesses about what Congress might deem to be a crime 5 years from now. ****, if you want to go down that road, let's go ahead and change the national speed limit to 20 MPH, back-date it 5 years, and hand-out hundreds of speeding tickets to every American driver for doing what was legal the whole time.

Buffett is right.

The whole ****ing charade is an immoral legal travesty.

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Genesis
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I disagree entirely.

If you know that something is inherently unstable and unsound (and Buffett has said REPEATEDLY that he did and does) and you take advantage of it, you have no right to complain when the instability is corrected and you lose as a consequence.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
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What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Aynrandfan
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Genesis, this comes down to ex post facto law.

The constitution SPECIFICALLY DISALLOWS SUCH LAW.

Changing law, and then enforcing the newly changed law back in time and thereby making criminals out of completely innocent people who WERE, IN FACT, FOLLOWING THE LAW ALL ALONG is about as immoral, unethical, and unconstitutional as anything I can think of.

If you think that sort of thing is okay, then why not endorse it across the board? How about if we double tax rates by statute and then back-date the new law by 50 years, and thereby make everybody alive a tax-evader by definition? Then, we can take everybody's homes, bank accounts, and asset-strip the whole country.

That's what ex post facto law does.

Changing a law and then back-dating it so that a politician can declare somebody to be a criminal WHO WAS FOLLOWING THE LAW ALL ALONG is specifically disallowed in the US Constitution.

Quote:
No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.


Article 1, Section 9.

Look it up.

Buffett is right, and if Congress is ever permitted to start writing law and then enforcing it back to whatever date they feel like it... you'll see a slide right into dictatorship. Such a practice will be used against political enemies, as well as people who contribute to the "wrong" candidates -- and maybe even blog writers.

It's an extremely dangerous road.

I hope Buffett fights it, ON MORAL GROUNDS.

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Aynrandfan
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Every American needs to understand what Congress is trying to do, here, and why Buffett is right:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_fac....

An ex post facto law (from the Latin for "from after the action") or retroactive law, is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions committed or relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law.

In the United States, the federal government is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by Article I, section 9 of the U.S. Constitution and the states are prohibited from the same by clause 1 of section 10.

Any court in the country should throw the garbage that Congress is now writing straight into the dump.

In fact, Congress is probably writing the new law in exactly this way because they know that the first court that hears a case covered by it will toss the whole rotten thing right out of court and declare THE ENTIRE ****ING BAG OF **** to be unconstitutional, which it plainly is.

Which means that Congress can ACT like they were trying to change the game, knowing full-well that they were changing nothing -- and thereby blame somebody else, i.e., the courts.

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Aynrandfan
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This is so important, EVERYBODY NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THIS!

1. Imagine, for a moment, that you owned 100 shares of Citi.
2. Imagine, next, that you decided to buy 100 shares of Bank of America.
3. Imagine, next, that Congress decides a few years down the road that nobody can own shares in competing firms within an industry.
4. Imagine that Congress now back-dates the law, and, that, as a direct result of this, you ARE NOW A ****ING CRIMINAL, subject to all sorts of PENALTIES, FINES, and ARREST for doing something that was PERFECTLY LEGAL THE WHOLE TIME.

Buffett is absolutely right to object to being treated in such a way.

He did nothing wrong.

He followed the law the entire time.

He is perfectly right in saying that this is bad law, bad public policy, and a horribly stupid way to handle a transition to a new set of regulations on derivatives.

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Genesis
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Oh horse****.

Nobody is saying he can't write such contracts.

There is NOTHING prohibiting Congress from requiring that he prove he can perform under the original agreement.

That's all posting of margin and central clearing is! It is proof that one can perform one's obligation. The obligation itself has not changed one iota.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
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What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Peterm99
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ARF:

Get serious. Nobody is talking about ex-post facto law.

The intent is that in the future, all such transactions must have sufficient margin. If Buffet or anyone else does not wish to comply, he merely has to get out of his positions. He would not face any charges, penalties, etc. for having failed to post margin prior to the enactment of the law.

Granted, he will likely take losses if he gets out of his positions now, but, I see nothing legally or morally wrong if someone loses money because he took advantage of legal technicalities or loopholes that encourage fraud that are subsequently closed.

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Krzelune
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He is a sophisticated investor, he should have known this would happen smiley

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Connieg
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ARF: requiring margin being posted post factum is nothing new, since brokerages are doing it ALL the time.

You buy a position on 30% margin, then they raise it to 70% margin and you have to either provide them with cash or sell enough of your position to get back into new margin brackets.

What's new is that nobody had ever done it to him, W.B.

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Genesis
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Connie: EXACTLY.

Margin requirements on futures, for example, change all the ****ing time. It's a risk of trading on margin (that is, not posting 100% cash against positions), which is what Warren was doing here.

He thinks Berkshire's credit was good enough, and so did the other party. Well, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but the answer now is "no, all positions must be margined." So what?

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
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What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Hihoherewego
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Quote:
Buffett is a fundamentally honest guy....


If he was such a fundamentally honest guy then he shouldn't have
entered into what IMO is a perceived immoral and unethical arrangement in the first place regardless of the 'rules' in place at the time. Oh sure he was likely perceived to be 'good for the collateral' alright but the only problem is it wasn't hardwired in the contract so now he wants the original contract 'honored' which means that said collateral never could've been legally accessed to begin with if and when things went south - hence inherently BS, unethical, and unenforceable.


He himself has coined derivatives as 'weapons of financial destruction' and has always said he doesn't invest in anything he doesn't understand. So he sure as hell understood what he was getting into here. Don't forget his bet was bailout-covered by the taxpayer on behalf of his pals at Goldman and of which his so-called risk of which he has profited mightily had as a consequence no real risk attached to it at all. No, the real risk here was borne by the taxpayer, not by this so-called oracle of investment.

Bottomline: He knows how to vicariously suck the public teat with the best
of them and he knows how to transfer that risk back to the mother while making it sound like he is doing her a monumental favor by letting his aged cracked lips grace her nipple.

Screw him and the rest of these sophisticated leeches. Put up your money (bet) Warren and lose it like the rest of us without direct and indirect government backstops and then lets see how great you are. They don't backstop you in Vegas and they sure as hell shouldn't do it here either. So quit the whining. It's not getting bought any longer. I for one can't wait to see your vaulted smug-azz stock take a well-deserved permanent dump.

...........................

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Aynrandfan
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Quote:
ARF:

Get serious. Nobody is talking about ex-post facto law.


Oh, really?

Do you know what the term actually means?

Let's have a look:

Quote:
The intent is that in the future, all such transactions must have sufficient margin.


"In the future," right? Your words. The issue IS changing margin requirements from WHAT THEY USED TO BE to WHAT THEY WILL BE IN THE FUTURE.

Quote:
If Buffet or anyone else does not wish to comply, he merely has to get out of his positions.


At great expense, right?

Indeed, the costs are large, and will probably force Berkshire to borrow in order to do this -- remember that Berkshire just bought Burlington and actually borrowed almost $8 Billion to do so; to force a buy-back of Berkshire's derivatives out of the clear blue sky places Berkshire in a position of being in technical violation of a law THAT DID NOT EXIST when the contracts were written. And why, exactly, must Berkshire do this? To avoid being in violation of legal requirements that didn't exist at the time the contracts were written? That's retroactive law, pal. BY DEFINITION.

I quote you again:

Quote:
ARF:

Get serious. Nobody is talking about ex-post facto law.


Yes, we are.

It is EXACTLY the issue.

It is EXACTLY what we are talking about.

It is exactly, precisely, and specifically the issue.

Genesis wrote..
Nobody is saying he can't write such contracts.


They're saying that the contracts he wrote in the past will SUDDENLY be in violation of new law that did not formerly exist (although the legislation is not yet complete, so let's be clear, here, that were speculating upon what the eventual law will be).

Berkshire has a sizable amount of assets that are legitimate and valuable. The people he sold the contracts to are sophisticated investors who knew what Berkshire's balance sheet looked like, EXACTLY. Why is FREEDOM TO CONTRACT such a bane around here? The idea that Congress is going to stick its nose into derivatives which were legally written YEARS AGO by the deepest pocket on the planet to investors who are some of the sharpest knives in the drawer who based their decision upon their appraisal of a completely honest balance sheet is absurd.

It's crazy.
It's unconstitutional.
It's morally wrong.

Genesis wrote..
There is NOTHING prohibiting Congress from requiring that he prove he can perform under the original agreement.


That's incorrect: if it's ex post facto, then Congress is indeed prohibited from anything of the kind.

And, from everything I've read about this, that's exactly what Congress is trying to do.

(Again, let's be clear that the law is not fully written, and we are all essentially speculating upon what the law might eventually say. My posts here today in this thread are based upon my understanding of what is being discussed at the moment; none of us know what the final bill might look like.)

Buffett is right on this, guys.

Buffett is RIGHT AS RAIN.

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Ilikegelt
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I guess it's like me buying a car that goes 170 MPH in an area that has no speed limits. Driving it at those speeds daily. Just because a new law that says I can't go faster than 100 MPH are put in place, does not give me the right to go 170 MPH because I bought a car that could go those speeds before the law came into effect. I sell the car or follow the new rules.

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How can broke economies lend money to other broke economies who haven't got any money because they can't pay back the money the broke economy lent to the other broke economy and shouldn't have lent it to them in the first place because the broke economy can't pay back? smiley
Krzelune
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Quote:
You buy a position on 30% margin, then they raise it to 70% margin and you have to either provide them with cash or sell enough of your position to get back into new margin brackets.


That is covered in your agreement/contract and you know it can happen

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The desire of millions, the inconvenience of millions, the suffering of millions, the death of millions, does not concern them because of the evolutionary humanist lens they peer through.
Clock
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Quote:
He is a sophisticated investor, he should have known this would happen


Of course he knew. He took a chance that he wouldn't be caught and have to face any consequences.

In the meantime, WB is a happy man ...he makes all kinds of $$$ .... while thanking America for loopholes and back doors in the law.

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...lots of money still on the sidelines ~ CNBC mantra ~


Asimov
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I see both sides of this and I can't, for the life of me, figure out where the hell I stand. That's uncomfortable. I hope somebody can straighten it out, because if I was in WB's shoes, I'd be saying what he is. Then again, I don't think it's right to have a position like that and not have to post a margin against it.

*sigh*

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Aynrandfan
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Connie wrote..
ARF: requiring margin being posted post factum is nothing new, since brokerages are doing it ALL the time.

You buy a position on 30% margin, then they raise it to 70% margin and you have to either provide them with cash or sell enough of your position to get back into new margin brackets.


That's a nice try, Connie, but it's completely inapplicable, and a blatantly dishonest "argument." I'm surprised Gen accepted it by saying, "Exactly."

Let me say: BULL****, Connie.

What you are referring to are changes in NASD rules, and let's be clear: the NASD is a private organization -- it is NOT an arm of the government. It is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION, and, as a private org, it creates rules for its private MEMBERS in the free market to follow if they wish to be a member of the PRIVATE organization.

Now, it's one thing for a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION to create rules for its members, and for PRIVATE BUSINESSES to agree on terms that permit back-dated changes. That's a private matter, freely chosen by people to either join an organization (and to agree to follow its rules even when changed), or to refrain from joining that organization -- OR TO FREELY LEAVE THE PRIVATE ORGANIZATION AT ANY TIME.

It is a completely different subject that CONGRESS intends to re-write LAW with a back-date, in plain violation of Article 1, Section 9 of the US CONSTITUTION.

Your "example" takes the actions of a private organization (the NASD) that has created rules for its members WHO FREELY JOINED AND AGREED TO THE RULES and who also CAN FREELY LEAVE THAT PRIVATE ORGANIZATION AT ANY TIME, and CONFUSED it with CONGRESS WRITING FEDERAL LAW.

These are completely different subjects, Connie -- your example is fully dishonest and does not apply in any way to the topic of the US Congress writing a law that is in direct contradiction to the US Constitution.

Your "argument" is sheer nonsense.

Buffett is absolutely, 100%, fully RIGHT on MORAL GROUNDS.

He IS being treated unfairly, he IS being treated in a manner that is FULLY unconstitutional, and I hope he fights it all the up to the court of God himself.

Congress needs to have all of their ****ing pens and paper taken away; they have no ****ing clue what the hell they're doing.

NONE.

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"To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it."
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Reason: Clarity.
Genesis
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I understand your point Ayn but I entirely disagree.

Congress has the right to regulate the securities markets - and these ARE securities. Having chosen to issue securities, Buffet is given no guarantee that the regulations thereof will remain consistent over the period of time he contemplates.

Congress has apparently found (correctly, I might add) that the abuse of the privilege of issuing securities has led to ridiculous levels of systemic risk. This is not just theoretical risk either - it is realized risk, in that they were literally threatened by the same dealers if they did not pony up three quarters of a trillion dollars.

What Buffet is engaged in is a regulated activity and in fact the counterparties (insurance companies) are regulated firms. He knew this when he entered into the agreement and had no reasonable expectation (say much less a legal right to rely on) a lack of changes in those regulations over a period of performance.

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Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Aynrandfan
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Genesis wrote..
I understand your point Ayn but I entirely disagree.


Okay, cool.

Fair enough.

Congress scares the hell out of me, to tell you the truth.

I'm convinced that 99% of them have no idea what the hell they are even trying to regulate.

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"To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it."
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Widgeon
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Quote:
Genesis, this comes down to ex post facto law.

The constitution SPECIFICALLY DISALLOWS SUCH LAW.




You mean like declaring 900+ issues un-shortable in the midst of of a collapse? Justice for some ... but hardly all.

Connieg
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Ahem...ARF......I just posted an opinion regarding WB posting margin, NOT about Congress, law, etc.

I think that margin requirement is a reasonable one, and I don't think that I meant that Government should impose anything on WB. It would be a private party job. I am pretty sure that there must be something in these agreements that would entitled those puts "sellers" to some monetary compensation before 2018 if some conditions are met (short of putting them to him).

Mind you, WB already restructured this deal once because he was losing a lot of money "on paper". Next time he wants to restructure, there might just be silence on another end of the line. No need to reverse any contracts.

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Peterm99
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ARF:

Your passion is commendable, your logic not so much.

Functionally, this is no different than you buying a house calculating that you can fully deduct mortgage interest expense, and basing your affordability decision on that fact. If at a later time, Congress decides it wants to suck up more taxes, and they limit the interest expense deduction in subsequent years to such an extent that you can no longer afford the mortgage, and you are forced to sell at a loss or go bankrupt, you cannot claim to be a victim of ex post facto law. Yeah, it sucks because the new situation is different from what you were expecting when you bought the house, but that's just the breaks we all have to endure in life.

Buffet made a bet based on the assumption that he'd have nearly unlimited leverage for the duration, and is crying because his assumption will be invalid (if the law actually goes into effect - and on that I have my doubts, but that's probably gonna be a topic for another ticker).

If you argue that Buffet should not be subject to such a change in circumstance, it is like arguing that those who bought McMansions on minimum wage who are losing their homes should not be forced to suffer the consequences of their decisions as the financial/economic environment has changed since they entered into those mortgage contracts.

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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
Widgeon
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Quote:
Buffett is absolutely right to object to being treated in such a way.

He did nothing wrong.

He followed the law the entire time.



So did I, but it didn't help when (one of) their little (rule changing) announcements lit a 100% ramp on Wachovia that caused a $64k margin call on me. Then, merely One Week later Wachovia shares actually traded for 1 cent. A swing of $130k (MOL) caused by changing the rules in the middle of the game. Too Bad My Name's Not Buffet.




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