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 Demographics Is Destiny
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-11-06 11:36:18

I just wish that the social conservative "pro-natal" people would address the issues you bring up, especially the fact that it costs nearly a million dollars to raise each kid.

They never will because the only answer people try to give is "make more money."

The problem is that you can't get there from here for the vast majority of people. It is not mathematically possible. Therefore the only solution is to collapse cost dramatically, like by moving the decimal on that cost figure left one position!

Its the same sort of crap with climate change. Even if we REALLY ARE responsible for it as humans there's nothing we can do about it because we're 5% of the population of the planet and the bottom 50%+ in standard of living will not continue to live in straw huts voluntarily so unless you are going to kill them all you can't change the outcome.

Therefore the ONLY thing you can do that is productive is to adapt. "Adapt" means using technology to exploit that which is changing. This we can do. If there is more insolation then use it directly to evaporate salt water into fresh and increase irrigation that way. If CO2 levels are going up that's GOOD as it increases plant growth rates, and plants of all sorts wind up being both direct and indirect (as animal feed) food. If the sea level is rising build walls and/or elevate structures that you don't want to move and, for the rest, DO MOVE. If storms are more damaging build resistant structures and put electrical service underground where it cannot be destroyed by high winds.

We have nuclear technology and have had it for 50+ years that can produce all the carbon-based fuel we want, literally forever. Oh, you say we'll run out of coal? Well if that CO2 is in the atmosphere condense it and use that. Wait, that's expensive? Well, yes, at today's prices its not the alternative source of carbon of choice, but when we run short on coal in 500 years, assuming we haven't solved the problem in some other way, it might be -- and again its a source that is 100% recyclable and thus cannot be exhausted.

We can do all these things and they're MUCH cheaper than trying to piss into a hurricane and expect that you'll do anything more than pissing on yourself when it blows back in your face.

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."
Flashy 24 posts, incept 2018-07-07
2023-11-06 11:50:43

Where is the brighter future?

The brighter future for me is not about the persoanl accumulation of riches.

It is about equality before the law, no special rules for certain groups of people, for example life imprisonment for killing a policeman but 12 years or whatever it is years for killing the common man.

It is about living in a meritocracy.
It is about small government, a common cause, one culture, sound fiscal management, much more.

We are so far away from that and getting further away by the week, it has never been a perfect uptopia but it's been getting worse for many decades.

Something may be able to be built from the "ruins" but it's all going to get much much worse in the meantime, time is running out very quickly to stop an irreversible slide.

And yes, I know we are to blame, but I'm outvoted many thousands to one. As for a general strike, well, there is no shortage of scabs.

Andrew 314 posts, incept 2014-09-24
2023-11-06 11:51:09

My brother and his girlfriend have cats.
I can't blame her, her childhood experience was a cycle of divorce.
So, no marriage either, it doesn't seem like.

I've had one, and while it was a "happy accident" I was on course to not ever have my own, had it not happened by accident.
Based on school, other kids nearby, and the general "everything" I can't advise having kids on purpose.
At least not "as it stands now".
Can it be fixed?
Will it be fixed?
Not today.
Tomorrow doesn't look promising either.

Somewhat off topic.
I can't wait for the next Rent Bill (property tax) coming, seems houses have all been "appreciated" quite a bit, so there'll be an "Adjustment".
Figure Christmas may be light this year in a bunch of homes.
Locally, (thankfully "next to me but not me") Columbus is proposing a giant school levy, I hope it goes down in flames.
Orangecrush 298 posts, incept 2018-09-29
2023-11-06 12:01:21

Several comments have questioned the sanity and reasoning of those in power who think they can replace the current complacent American population with 3rd World and Muslim immigrants and keep the party going...perhaps the explanation can be found in the old saying:

Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat (literally: Those whom God wishes to destroy, he first deprives of reason)
Skybluepink 1k posts, incept 2007-10-20
2023-11-06 12:14:06

@Shadowmask My mom was deceased, and dad had moved on to the best-life thing in FL. He got a decent 8 years out of it before things went down hill on him, so I can't blame him in retrospect, just different priorities in life I guess. In-laws were MUCH older. They had gotten to the point where they thought they would never have kids, then my husband came along! They were more willing to help, but less able. MIL's health took a nose dive when our daughter was 5, so our general outlook sadly proved to be correct. They're all gone now. We made a lot of nice low-key memories and had a lot of laughs along the way though!
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-11-06 12:57:52

I am posting the link to this ticker on every "pro-natal" blog discussion I find on the internet, starting with Alex Berenson. I am saying that anyone who refuses to address all of these issues and still insist that people have kids is full of shit. I am being rather bellicose about it and will continue to do so in the future.

Something that pisses me off to no end is for people to question my personal life choices when they do not know anything about me or my personal history. It is one of the few ways that someone can get on my shit list. Why? Because questioning my personal life choices suggests that I am too stupid to make said choices on my own and that is an insult to my intelligence.

Its all in the mitochondria.

Its the future're not.
Raven 17k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-11-06 12:58:08

A long while back on this forum i wrote that some people love their children so much that they choose not to have them. Anyone remember that?

This article is a pleasant surprise and completely unexpected. I was going to reply in this vein to a person's comment in another thread but will place a thought or two here instead.

I wrote and said exactly the same things in the same form as Karl just did back in the 80s when i was in High School. Not some great insight or genius, merely observation and feeling. University and early work during said and HS solidified this feeling and plan.

Why was it that i came to these conclusions so many decades earlier when people thought that everything was just peachy keen to have their families in the rest of America? I have said previously that the tidal waves of social change do not hit the shores of your communities evenly or at the same time and often must cross other areas first. In fact the subset community in NYC where i trace my origins, and much very early ancestry, long story, has been used since at least the 1950s formally to predict trends for the rest of the country on a roughly twenty year lag by both public and major private concerns. I call it a giant, open air, mental institution. There are reasons for this forming much of my research, TL.

My parental and family relations were excellent, and i honor my parents' mission even though it made our lives interesting, to say the least. Funny how children loved and mentored do not seem to mind hardship. Actually as i shared with a new friend that severe hardship got me away from the open air mental institution and around some of the most normal people in the once truly Conservative functional country areas where our family had deep roots. Alas, i would years later see these areas shift to the dirty bearded fatso Libertards and all of their socially inconsiderate behavior in numerous ways and none of the decorum of true country people. Seeing the tail end is at least a memory i can share.

My plan for my family formation was to get rich first and remove the risk of the system from future children's lives. Yes, like many of my people in eras long ago as we adapted to changing times, would have done family at significantly later age which given how much more i can do now as an old man than any younger of today and using Karl as another example would have been NO PROBLEM. Plus, like the other bad social changes, sports are for wimps, thus i can share with young people REAL working skills at this and later age which include hard work.

Of course as a few here know i did it way ahead of schedule by choice, and what was i saving my children from do you say? It was less about academics and more about not having them absorb a culture and influences which were distasteful to me when i was young. I am grateful that i was never bullied or abused, mostly for anyone who would have tried, as i would have been tried as an adult, get it, however i have seen and can sense it here where others merely minding their own business are scarred to this day. Funny how this crap is an American phenomenon. Perhaps another time as it is too long.

The children i had the honor of raising are completely free of this shit-show of a country as it is now. They have the maturity, insights and skills to make their coin in a perpetual position of fluid "fuck you" in areas vastly removed from this land if their choice. We are loyal and patriotic to the concept and this nation as the holder of said regardless of how far it has gone astray, disagreeing in principle with the Ex-pat movement.

My plan was to in much later life perhaps raise a family abroad as Americans and teaching them of America and having loyalty to said without the presence of those unfit to inherit this great accomplishment and living as my Italian friends say, as Buffoons.

Well, i shot my load regarding family, not doing it again. As for the children, they utterly refuse to do so under the current society and if they do, it will be abroad as i originally intended.

What kills it for us is the culture and societal manners. When our subgroup would become more modern, we saw as the pinnacle something along the lines of 1901 or in visual form the 1930s and 40s, not Madonna and Jerry Springer and the cheap, classless consumerism which so many falsely associate with the American way.

Nice work Karl, very nice.

All great wrongs begin with a lie.
Djsnola 379 posts, incept 2009-03-16
2023-11-06 13:00:10

Of course another thing not really talked about is the aberration in how we all live today .. for most of history grandparents, and parents and grandchildren and often times an aunt or uncle all lived in the same house and helped with taking care of the young and old. Dont really see that today! Certainly not at scale!
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-11-06 13:00:15

Karl does a very good synopsis of the socioeconomic factors driving the decline of births in our country. Call it the 800 lbs gorilla in the room. But its much worse. There is a two ton elephant in the room along with that 800 lbs gorilla. That elephant consists of the xenoestrogens, the 70+ vaccines that kids have to get today, and of late the covid-19 vaccines. I believe all of these are reducing fertility over the long-term, with the xenoestrogens being the lion's share of the effect.

It is being known that testosterone levels have been declining in males since at least the 70's and likely from the 1950's. There is evidence that the rate of this decline increased to a higher level starting around 2000. The effect appears to be world-wide, with a lesser impact on Sub-Saharan Africa. I suspect xeonestrogens are the biggest cause of it. I believe it will be irreversible within the conventional life-spans of anyone reading this.

Its all in the mitochondria.

Its the future're not.
Redjack 2k posts, incept 2018-01-29
2023-11-06 13:03:32

My parents had no desire to "help" with our kids. Long story, but it was never going to be an option.

We made it work, but we WANTED to make it work. Sent our kids to private school for the same reason.

However, we did not have a lot of kids. Variety of reasons, but part of it was because of cost. Child care (which is probably going to be needed because of inflation), education, healthcare, and such are not going down in price, but up.

So we limited the number of kids we had AND WE WERE VERY MOTIVATED TO HAVE CHILDREN!

For many, who are NOT motivated, that would lead to no kids. Can't blame them.

Locally, more and more schools are closing. The estimate is we will have the local elementary schools consolidated to two, and I am not sure how many middle schools will be left. The progressives are blaming the ESA's and open enrollment, but the number of children under 18 continues to drop.
Raven 17k posts, incept 2017-06-27
2023-11-06 13:04:04

@Abelardlindsey -- have your ever wondered if the hormonal decline is actually a result of the soul crushing existence of many young people and not a cause of the problem of low births and male motivation?

Just another symptom.

All great wrongs begin with a lie.
Mjeff87 4k posts, incept 2021-11-22
2023-11-06 13:38:51

In my opinion, the two things that couples argue most about are money and children. My wife and I have there ya go. We have the usual "differences of opinion" like most couples, but I can only think of three specific times in the last 30+ years we've ever had a real argument/fight. Two of those were on me, the other she owns. And we both admit that freely.

Si Vis Pacem, para Bellum

You'll get less than you desire, but more than you deserve
Chemman 480 posts, incept 2021-05-03
2023-11-06 13:39:13

@Raven: "have your ever wondered if the hormonal decline is actually a result of the soul crushing existence of many young people and not a cause of the problem of low births and male motivation?"

You make a good point.

My immunology professor in 1977 put this on the white board "dis-ease = disease" and proceeded to give multiple examples from the literature of cases that showed mind affecting the body.

In the 90's I read a study out of UCLA on bipolar disorder. They had two treatment arms and a control group. Treatment arm one was the use of pharma to control the bipolar disorder. Treatment arm two was the use of behavioral modification to control the bipolar disorder. At the end of the study they checked brain chemicals linked to bipolar. They were surprised that they got the same brain chemical changes from both treatment groups. Again mind affecting body.
Abelardlindsey 2k posts, incept 2021-03-26
2023-11-06 13:40:04


No. I believe its bio-chemical and is primary driver of declining fertility. My experiences with Mercury and chelation has convinced me that problems are more likely bio-chemical than socioeconomic. The medical industrial complex did a real number on me and it was only due to DIY chelation with ALA that I overcame it on my own. I feel a very strong animosity towards large scale social institutions in general as result of my personal experiences.

Its all in the mitochondria.

Its the future're not.
Jacksparrow 300 posts, incept 2016-04-15
2023-11-06 13:40:13

Between myself, and my fianc, we have 7 grown adult children. There are currently 6 grandkids from our children, and we expect 8 total. To maintain the population those 7 children would need to have 18 offspring. Not going to even be close to that. Inflation and the cost of having children is to high. We can thank congress because inflation is everywhere and always a monetary event. Then you have video games, tinder, and crap jobs. We seemingly are doomed. Enjoy the time that you have left I suppose. We can't vote our way out of it, and the CIA can likely subvert any work shut down as that sort of fuck job to the public is what they do.
Europeasant 58 posts, incept 2011-07-03
2023-11-06 13:53:09

Our replacements are on the way. There are about 2 billion south Asians, 1.5 billion Sub-Saharan's, 1.5 billion East Asians and about 600 million Central and South Americans available. If the White people of Europe and North America will not reproduce then our leaders will send for others to replace us. Our financial system is predicated on growth and depends a lot on continuous population expansion. One FED chairman said that if the USA does not increase in population growth at least at 1.2 % yearly then there will be a major financial crash.

Me and the wife had three children. Physically they were average but quite bright mentally. They had ACT test scores of 32, 30 and 28. One of them took the SAT test and scored 1450 (math + reading) and graduated valedictorian in grade school and salutatorian in high school. A selective enrollment high school but sadly dropped out of college after 2 years. I spent $150,000 of my own money for college education for my three boys and sadly none of them got degrees. They don't make big money these days. One of them is married but sadly him and the wife do not want children or cannot have children.

Most Americans are into watching sportzball and eating Doritos and drinking beer. Myself I'm into physical fitness and weigh 153 lbs at a height of 5'8". I keep myself fit and go to the rifle range once in awhile, lift weights etc. I do this just in case the Chicoms invade the west coast and the regular commies invade the East coast. I'm joking here as the commies are already within our borders and infest and control major cities plus the media, academia and government. One way to spot a commie is if he professes that "All people are created equal" except them of course.

Still all in all itz been a good life. The heating system works, the electricity works and food stores are well stocked. My only problems these days are that the expansion tank for the boiler heating system developed a leak and rather then call the heating/plumbing people I decided to replace the tank myself. It was a bitch to take off (I had to to use three foot breaker bar) and the new tank will be delivered tomorrow. Oh and forgot to mention I recently had my Aortic Valve replaced and have been diagnosed with Lymphatic Cancer. Wait till you see how much the hospitals and doctors charge. You just might get a heart attack.
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-11-06 13:55:41

@Europeasant -
Our replacements are on the way. There are about 2 billion south Asians, 1.5 billion Sub-Saharan's, 1.5 billion East Asians and about 600 million Central and South Americans available. If the White people of Europe and North America will not reproduce then our leaders will send for others to replace us. Our financial system is predicated on growth and depends a lot on continuous population expansion. One FED chairman said that if the USA does not increase in population growth at least at 1.2 % yearly then there will be a major financial crash.

Well given what they might like, who cares?

The facts are that unless the structure of costs change within a generation or two all the imported people figure it out and they stop having babies too. Thus this premise does not work, never mind that you run out of the smart ones too quickly and, like it or not, most of those who you can entice to come are not those smart ones because they can and do figure it out and if they do come they won't fuck and make babies.

Therefore whatever the Fed man might LIKE the alleged "answer" isn't an answer.

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."
Sqt 20 posts, incept 2021-12-01
2023-11-06 14:15:38

I loved being a mom and being home when the kids were little. I am very glad I had that experience and hope my daughter, who wants kids, will too.

I agree with all the reasons not to have kids and yet still regret nothing. I do not envy my childless friends. I see them looking for ways to fill up their lives, especially the single ones, and it makes me even more grateful for my family.

I told my daughter that I will take care of the grandkids so she will not have to rely on daycare. I will absolutely do my part for the next generation because that is what we should be doing. How much easier would it be if people actually gave a damn about their kids and grandkids futures?
Orangecrush 298 posts, incept 2018-09-29
2023-11-06 14:15:59

As for the children, they utterly refuse to do so (have children) under the current society and if they do, it will be abroad as i originally intended.

I would love to know what countries you have found that are less of a crap storm than the USA? Over the last couple of decades I have talked to ex-pats from all over Europe, South Africa, Canada, Central & South America -- have yet to meet one who doesn't say the US is still the "least worst" place to live on the globe. I would happily ex-pat if I thought there was somewhere better.
Zanker 116 posts, incept 2022-12-06
2023-11-06 15:27:18

One of my favorite passages that still resonates with me from Douglass Adams, long after I've stopped looking up to this nihilist was how people were looking for a source of energy, and finally decided to tap the one source of energy that had not yet been tapped: the future. The limerick goes onto say that it was not until one day that they realized this is the reason they were tired all the time and that they put a stop to the practice, stating it was for their grandparents and for their grandchildren, but really it was for their grandchildren's grandparents, and for their grandparents' grandchildren.
It has become exceedingly obvious to me that this could be correctly applied to borrowing money against future capital, and importantly how it robs the future children of the fruits of their own productivity.

Bless you Sqt for being willing to pay it forward, and I hope your daughter is motivated to give you grandchildren whom you may have a major part in raising. There's really nothing better you can do to ease the costs of parenting and simultaneously improve the quality of the household when you're in alignment with your daughter's and son-in-law's alignments

Just, whatever you do, do not buy your grandchildren a backyard playground against the head of house's will for which they have not planned and which they may not refuse delivery without being held somehow financially liable smiley

And you bring to light another component of this, what about the people who decide that having children should not be left up to reason? Instead choosing to see their children as nothing but a blessing. As another commenter states, with good parenting the children might not mind growing up with hardship.

We don't have children because foresee they may have better lives than we or because we think they have a better chance of rebuilding from the ashes. We have children to grow God's kingdom and making a decent place on earth and continuing the bloodline are incidentally a benefit of that. Meanwhile we can rationalize what parts of the system to avoid as the system break, and avoid or mitigate those things that might cause us to depend on those parts of the system. This is how we best live in the world not of the world.

So many hospitals and universities were founded by the church and have since been coopted by business interests and the secular sorts, and these systems can be built again under the obedience of God.
So unless many hearts change within these systems and it radically changes, I say bring on the collapse. I may not live to see the best days, but at least our children can rebuild it.
Tickerguy 202k posts, incept 2007-06-26
2023-11-06 15:29:02

Appealing to God has worked so well.
The Muslims do it all the time.

"Perhaps you can keep things together and advance playing DIE games.
Or perhaps the truth is that white men w/IQs >= 115 or so built all of it and without us it will collapse."
Inspectrcalahan 1k posts, incept 2021-01-15
2023-11-06 15:38:02

@Sqt bravo ,I love having my grands around 5 kids with spouses and 9 grands . Most are local .My bride and I are living our best life . Picking up kids from school , and keeping the littles. Interminable ball games, and silly shit. The boys all under 7 like going to the farm with guns and explosives , four wheelers and dirt bikes. My beautiful blond granddaughters are a delight. The middle one frightfully smart. We make sure they can all read above grade. They oldest boy can throw a beautiful spiral. We still arrange private time and make a few trips a year. It just takes planning. Helping raise good humans is a fine way to get old.
4geez 121 posts, incept 2010-02-10
2023-11-06 17:21:10

I guess I made up for everyone slacking by have six kids. Four are adults now; two are married.

All have high IQs and contribute to society through taxes and volunteering and being decent. These are the kind of people that you want to reproduce. I suspect my messy divorce squashed some of their optimism.

Jesjohn94 1k posts, incept 2019-05-07
2023-11-06 18:12:08

Hundreds of millions of people all over the world are making the decision to have fewer children. The simple reality is when that many people make the same decision they are making the right decision. The problem isn't that populations will decline it's that the percentage of the population that is old and unproductive will dramatically increase. If you're not healthy and financially secure by your mid 60s you're going to be fucked. As with any change there will be winners and losers. Avoiding debt is always going to increase your chance of being a winner.
Kochevnik 1k posts, incept 2007-07-30
2023-11-06 18:40:36

This graph is from 2013 so things are much worse now - it plots women's 'equality' vs the number of children each has.

As u can see - depopulation is a WORLDWIDE crisis independent of race and religion. EVERY nation on this planet is literally in the same boat with regards to depopulation so the idea that importing people will solve this is nonsensical at best.

And in every case - increasing women's equality and freedom leads to population decline.

I dont know how u fix that since u arent going to convince any of those women that their freedom/equality is something they should relinquish.

My guess is that as those nations collapse all the technologies and social structures that ALLOW women to be 'equal' are most likely going to disappear as well.

Thats going to be interesting to watch.

Or at least it will be until all the lights go off. :)

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