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Giannmi
Posts: 57
Incept: 2009-09-03

Nutley NJ
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One person who deserves credit on a lot in this area from my recollection is Pat Buchanan. He was clairvoyant on much of this, most famously touched on in his "culture war" speech at the 92 GOP convention. He was acutely aware of the pitfalls of the breakdown of the nuclear family (as was Daniel Patrick Moynihan).

There is no question that abortion goes far beyond the medical intervention. and it is not a stretch to see the correlation between the fight between traditional values and "it takes a village". Actions have consequences.
Tickerguy
Posts: 183871
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Buchanan, however, fatally linked this to religion -- because he didn't believe it, really, other than in that context. That is why he never got anywhere with it.

So have LOTS of other people, and in fact they still do.

That's ****ing dumb folks. Telling people they must "turn to God" in order to address a problem is telling people they have no agency and are neither responsible for themselves nor are we to hold politicians responsible for the incentive systems they generate and promote since we can just "turn to God" and it will all be ok.

Anyone running THAT sort of **** anywhere other than in a church (where you're free to preach all the fire and brimstone you want) should get a captive bolt right between the eyes -- ESPECIALLY when you try to infect the nation's political process with it, and Buchanan did, repeatedly, for a VERY long time.

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Civil Society requires 99%+ consent.
Stop consenting and it is forced to stop. Always.
No violence required.

Drifter
Posts: 1257
Incept: 2016-02-11

Pacific Northwest
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The left are fascistic hysterics.

Every single thing they REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE about with apocolyptic predictions, never come to pass: assault weapons ban, net neutrality, citizens united, hobby lobby, everything covid, what have you.

I'm thinking maybe keep the illegals here and exile the fascist half of this country to Mexico.

It is also time to talk about forced sterilizations.
Nobler
Posts: 13
Incept: 2021-10-20

Longmont CO
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As usual, good work. I would like to see that experiment play out.
Metalqueen
Posts: 85
Incept: 2021-09-10

Escapee from NoVa
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Sorry, right now most of these what-ifs fall into fairy dust and unicorn farts territory. The positive results (if indeed they would actually happen, which is uncertain) depend on a stable society with a reasonable level of prosperity. Is this type of society anywhere near on the horizon? Uh, no. The level of collapse that is baked in the cake - fuel and food shortages, supply chain disruptions if not outright collapse, long term damages from the clot shots, ect. We are much closer to going full on Mad Max than any return to "traditional" values. The young are going to find themselves much more concerned with the consequences of staying alive than the consequences of sex. And ALL of this is moot if the west keeps poking the Russian bear smiley

Two more points:
(1) I suspect the final court opinion will be more nuanced than the "leaked" hint at full overturn of Roe, and
(2) that so called "Red" states (gods I have really begun to hate that term) all go ahead with bans that were easy to do when it was likely that said bans were going to lose in the courts, and that if enacted these end up being a net positive as opposed to a net negative for said states.

I tend to tread lightly on these type of discussions, as my opinions on such tend to diverge greatly from many of the posters here - not just abortion but religiously based beliefs in general. Also I have a strong dislike for many "social conservatives" due to my encounters with them during my formative years.

Thus, I disagree with our good host that only one side of this debate is being dishonest here but that is a discussion for another day.
Evergreen
Posts: 101
Incept: 2021-12-26

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The socialist, totalitarians, fill-in-the-blank political control freaks, they live for societal manipulation--whatever their end goal. Those who have no interest in others and desire to be free and unencumbered by busybodies' desires are not inclined to be politically active. Thus, the best players in the game are those who are threats to liberty and tribal culture.

The long game is that the totalitarians prevail in destroying the fabric of society.

This is our first run in a capacity-level population on this planet. It would seem to be the case that we are destined for cycles after we reach peak.
Vernonb
Posts: 2844
Incept: 2009-06-03

East of Sheol
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The need for government drops precipitously. The ability to control/coerce people drops also.

Now I think about all the sexcapades that took over the broadcast networks starting in the 70s pushing adult themes to younger and younger audiences. They goaded the situation now the "cure" for their "disease" is about to disappear.

BTW Disney was here too with ABC since 1996.

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"Mass intelligence does not mean intelligent masses."
Joancrawford
Posts: 228
Incept: 2013-10-14

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Chromehill-Blacks voting overwhelmingly for Democrats who, basically all are in favor of lots of abortions. Yet, Margaret Sanger who found Planned Parenthood and the abortion movement made no bones about it, its purpose was to depopulate the black race.

This is in fact not true. I know Karl has made reference to Sanger's being a eugenicist as well. That may or may not be true, but Sanger's goal regarding blacks was to provide to them the same birth control options as women of the white race. In fact, W.E. Dubois openly stated in his day that black women should have the same control over their fertility that other races had.

I'm certainly no scholar on Sanger or Planned Parenthood, but her goal at the time was to reduce suffering that women endured when they had little or no options regarding birth control. This was particularly true for Catholic women who relied primarily on the rhythm method. Sanger herself was the offspring of a woman who had eleven children. Her goal was to mitigate the burden of providing for offspring one could not afford.

Regardless of your view on abortion (I'm pro-life and marched on Washington over 40 years ago for that cause), Sanger's intention was to provide women with options regarding reproduction, both black as well as white. The quotes attributed to her are largely taken out of context.

Blacks (rightfully so, imo) were paranoid about being subjected to elimination due to the historical prejudices they faced on a daily basis. These past two years I've applauded the blacks who stood up against the vax. I'm sorry more of them didn't jump on the bandwagon.

Over the past 70 years or so, we've been led by the nose by our media that sex should be fun, free, and inconsequential. The reproduction aspect has been cast aside as an unfortunate consequence in many respects.

What Planned Parenthood has become is an absolute disgrace. I believe that, like so many institutions, it became corrupted over the years as an organ harvesting mission.

My main complaint about abortion is and always has been that it invalidates human dignity and human life. You may agree or disagree. But I don't see Sanger as the pariah many on this thread do.

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Don't f*ck with me fellas! This ain't my first time at the rodeo.

America-it was a good run while it lasted. RIP!
Tickerguy
Posts: 183871
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Sanger was a screaming racist and that's a fact.

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Civil Society requires 99%+ consent.
Stop consenting and it is forced to stop. Always.
No violence required.
Joancrawford
Posts: 228
Incept: 2013-10-14

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@TG

For your consideration:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3884362/

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Don't f*ck with me fellas! This ain't my first time at the rodeo.

America-it was a good run while it lasted. RIP!
Tickerguy
Posts: 183871
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Oh please. Whitewashing HER OWN PUBLIC STATEMENTS cannot be done after the fact.

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Civil Society requires 99%+ consent.
Stop consenting and it is forced to stop. Always.
No violence required.
Joancrawford
Posts: 228
Incept: 2013-10-14

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Okay, I don't have a dog in this race, so I will not argue the point. I really could give two sh*ts about Sanger or PP. There is much reeeeing to be done about the whole abortion debacle, and I agree that the left's hand wringing over this whole issue is way, way over the top.

Bottom line? DOT GOV has no place in deciding the matter. It's a State rights issue. I hope that Roe is overturned and state's wishing to go forward with abortion clinics be allowed to do so .....AFTER a vote is made available to ALL of the state's registered voters.

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Don't f*ck with me fellas! This ain't my first time at the rodeo.

America-it was a good run while it lasted. RIP!
Eleua
Posts: 20200
Incept: 2007-07-05
A True American Patriot!
N 47.72/ W 122.55
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The quotes normally attributed to Margaret Sanger regarding Blacks, abortion, eugenics, etc are in their proper context. In her day, the concept of "racism" had almost no resemblance to what it means today, in terms of social unacceptability. She was an open racist, by today's standards, and abortion was her contribution to the problem she perceived.

I'm not going to FTFO about her "racist" comments from that era. Were they vulgar and despicable? Of course, but then again, I would say that the legacy of "anti-racism" is even more destructive, and I give you the modern era as Exhibit A in that regard.

The Left has a problem with their baseline propaganda concerning "racism" and the actual legacy of Sanger. They can't walk back their "anti-racist" stance, so they try to muddy the waters on the history of one of their quasi-dieties in their pantheon, and suggest that it isnt what it clearly is.

It's much akin to how they like to promote "The Great Switch" from the legacy of the KKK and the Democrat party to what it is today. In both cases, they were wrong by today's standards and since they control the media/education mechanism, they promote a lie to cover the dichotomy.

If you want a good book on the history of PP and Sanger, read "Grand Illusions." Yes, it is biased, but impeccably researched and footnoted.


That being said, if you didn't care about the ****storm you would endure from those that lack the ability to discern arguments from policy positions, you can EASILY win any argument with a Leftist over the humanity of abortion.

You simply state that abortion restrictions should only be for European-White people. Jews and Blacks should have unfettered and government sponsored abortions.

Stand back 200 feet, because they will explode with rage. Why all the fuss? if the fetus is nothing more than an unviable tissue mass, and you are saying that Jews and Blacks deserve MORE freedoms than Whites (the basis for CRT), why all the fuss? Is abortion really killing the next generation and somewhat of a genocide?

That's how you throw their "anti-racist" propaganda against their pro-abortion propaganda.

That's what you call a fork in chess. The opponent has to choose what piece he will lose, because he is going to lose at least one.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR
We are governed by sexual degenerates, Satanists, traitors, retards, cowards, sociopaths, and megalomaniacs - CHANGE MY MIND
That kind of sums up the last month since the election, a giant amber alert for Trump's balls. - Davkj1
Njca
Posts: 167
Incept: 2018-10-16

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@TG, I am no expert on Sanger but for my understanding that she was a proponent of eugenics. Planned Parenthood often has taken a hit due to the Sanger roots and the disproportionate racial distribution of abortions. And wasn't it in fact the Smithsonian that attributed planning and impulse control to white people, before they had to remove that display?

I concur that a poor person will be more influenced by the cited monetary reward than a wealthy one. And blacks are disproportionately poor, although there are more poor white people in the USA than poor black people, and so one may wonder if monetary rewards entirely explain the data. What about a the lack of a father, too?

The out of wedlock birth rate is highest for black Americans, and lowest for Asian Americans. Remove the financial incentives to plop out kids, restrict abortion, and then let's see what happens.

Raftermanfmj
Posts: 4979
Incept: 2010-09-06

USA
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A great many "what ifs" and most are unlikely to pan out. It may have worked in a racially homogonous America of 75 years ago (and did) but what you'd likely have is lower IQ and more r-selected racial cohorts increasing in number as they'd be getting pregnant and having more children.

And since an embarrassingly large portion of said kids even now become wards of the public teat, this effect would increase and the ever larger group of violent, low IQ, public resource negative 'citizens' would become an ever-larger sea anchor on the Ship of State, and its productive citizens.

If the Nation were actually ran by a benevolent elite of actual Americans rather than a racial supremacist cabal, there are a great many proven ways to increase the birth rate, and many more that are simple to develop.

For instance, for every child a married couple has, 25% of their original mortgage debt is forgiven.

Or a married couple has it's Federal tax rate / liability reduced by 50% for every child after the second

Married heads-of-household could be made more desirable by .gov by Federal subsidies of a portion of their wages after they've had 3 or 4 children, at a sliding scale as long as they were employed in the private sector.

Untaxed cash payments for having any child after the third would be a pretty direct and straight forward policy.

It's a fun exercise to think of ideas that would work and place America on the path to enough population growth to not allegedly need the constant importation of near-slave labor that ironically is a *massive* drain on the social safety nets but sadly that's not what is wanted. So until actual Americans once again control the government and the parasite is removed, it will never happen. And that's the facts

Women were sold a gigantic series of lies about the joy of work and how they could have it all...and their entrance to the work force en masse (before "Women's Liberation" 25% of women worked), driving the cost of labor down and causing labor's share of the national income and wages to stagnate despite a near 400% increase in productivity since the 70s. And since women are responsible for a full 85% of consumer spending, this gave an extra boost to the switch to a consumer economy.

So women 'liberated' themselves from having a family, house, car, 4 kids and husband that earned a comfortable middle class wage to struggling with a series of soul sucking jobs trying to pay off school debt while growing increasingly more desperate to find a husband. But sadly since ALL women want to marry up (how many female doctors do you know, well-off and well-earning that marry the pool man? Or the local mechanic?) in both finances and intelligence they've built themselves a cage, walked in and locked the door behind them. And what sane man wants to marry any woman carrying a few hundred grand in loan and credit card debt, as age ravages her looks, energy, and reproductive ability? Why bother?

So we see as is typical, women were sold a prison and told it was literally 'liberation.' Classic inversion.

All that said, the right to an abortion is nowhere in the constitution and should be switched back to the individual sovereign states, and whatever happens, happens. Imagining it would lead to any kind of American Renaissance is a pipe dream in my opinion, however.

As to why companies would fund abortion and the travel and lodging for same, the reasons probably range for yet more tiresome virtue signaling to keeping the need to hire suppressed. Long term, keeping the birth rate of actual citizens down allows yet more "need" for all types of immigration from illegal to the ongoing criminal travesty of H-1B.

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This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel. - Horace Walpole

The universe is not only stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we can imagine. - Haldane's Law
Hapie
Posts: 143
Incept: 2020-07-25

Texas
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Woman "empowerment", and abortion as a part of it, appears to be one of the biggest hoaxes played on women. The government got involved because it serves the purpose of increasing the labor pool and depressing wages.

The so-called "empowerment" caused a lot of damage to the society as a whole.

Unfortunately, the insanity is not over yet, with all the more chaos being caused by even more basic stuff like sex identity, alternate "family" structures and all the newly introduced BS about men getting pregnant.

Their goal is not equality; their goal is to destroy all anchors in our individual lives, including religion, thereby leading us all to their slavery.

Destruction and exploitation is what happens when we cannot resolve our differences ourselves within the family and let outsiders, including lawyers, interfere in our own family or domestic matters.

The Bible has it right; even the mafia knows it!

Giannmi
Posts: 57
Incept: 2009-09-03

Nutley NJ
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Tickerguy:


>Buchanan, however, fatally linked this to religion -- because he didn't believe it, really, other than in that context. That is why he never got anywhere with it.<

I am in total agreement. He was (and presumably still is) extremely narrow minded in that he saw the religious doctrine was the only path to a better future (salvation). Whether he truly believed it was the only path or if he felt he could not hold his coalition together without adhering to it, I do not know.

Buchanan was/is still an astute observer even if he is dogmatic in his religiously grounded remedies.
Joancrawford
Posts: 228
Incept: 2013-10-14

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@Eleua-That being said, if you didn't care about the ****storm you would endure from those that lack the ability to discern arguments from policy positions, you can EASILY win any argument with a Leftist over the humanity of abortion.

You simply state that abortion restrictions should only be for European-White people. Jews and Blacks should have unfettered and government sponsored abortions.

I like it.

I'm stealing it!

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Don't f*ck with me fellas! This ain't my first time at the rodeo.

America-it was a good run while it lasted. RIP!
Eleua
Posts: 20200
Incept: 2007-07-05
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N 47.72/ W 122.55
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Eugenics was a very fashionable concept in Sanger's day. I'm not excusing it, just saying she was, by no means, an outlier in that regard.


For perspective, how will people look back on today with astonishment and disgust that many people (enough to drive public policy) believed that you should surgically mangle kids' primary and secondary sex manifestations, after a North Korean brainwashing over the concept of gender fluidity?

Additionally, it is perfectly reasonable to think our great grandchildren may reject our concept of pathological altruism and racial fungibility in the same way we reject our great grandparent's concept of racial segregation.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR
We are governed by sexual degenerates, Satanists, traitors, retards, cowards, sociopaths, and megalomaniacs - CHANGE MY MIND
That kind of sums up the last month since the election, a giant amber alert for Trump's balls. - Davkj1
Chromehill
Posts: 651
Incept: 2010-03-03

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@Joancrawford - some Sanger quotes for you: I think #3 says it all.

1. "But for my view, I believe that there should be no more babies."
-- Interview with John Parsons, 1947

2. "The most merciful thing that the large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."
-- Woman and the New Race, Chapter 5, "The Wickedness of Creating Large Families." (1920) https://www.bartleby.com/1013/

3. "We dont want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population..."
-- Letter to Dr. Clarence J. Gamble, December 10, 1939, p. 2
https://libex.smith.edu/omeka/...

4. I accepted an invitation to talk to the women's branch of the Ku Klux Klan... I was escorted to the platform, was introduced, and began to speak...In the end, through simple illustrations I believed I had accomplished my purpose. A dozen invitations to speak to similar groups were proffered.
-- Margaret Sanger, An Autobiography, published in 1938, p. 366

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"Power, like the reproductive muscle, longs to be exercised, often without judgement or right" - Gerry Spence
Joancrawford
Posts: 228
Incept: 2013-10-14

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@Chromehill,

Again, no dog in this particular race; however, Sanger, as I alluded to in my earlier post, was conscious of the false Negro suspicion that the white race wanted them exterminated, so therefore she expressed caution that her efforts would not be misconstrued as to the elimination of their race. Her goal was to reduce overpopulation of ALL races.

The women's branch of the KKK was yet another group she preached to about reducing THEIR population by practicing birth control. The KKK was hardly a group that had anything BUT white people within its organization. So the "kill all non whites" attribution to her is doubtful.

Recall that in her day, the KKK, while not exactly mainstream, was another group of people that she felt needed to control their population numbers.

Was Sanger an elitist? A proponent of only the very rich and affluent having very large families in an era before the generous welfare state?

Most assuredly yes. Was she a saint, a sinner, or blatant racist? I have no idea. But as Eleua pointed out, she was simply a product of her time, arguing for population control.

Off topic, but hopefully within the context of my argument:

I live in a southern city that has numerous historical neighborhoods where I currently reside. When my neighborhood was first incorporated (1903), it was stated that nobody of the "negro" race was allowed to live here. Consequently, to this day it's a very nice place to live. That being said, a candidate for mayor in our city is a black man who is my neighbor.

The neighborhood directly to our east was recently RENAMED, due to some SJW finding that the man who it was named for sad some rayciss (bad) things about blacks over one hundred years ago. My point is to reiterate what Eleua said. You cannot put what was said in the distant past into the context of today. It's one of the reasons we see insanity running loose in what we frequently regard as "cancel culture".

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Don't f*ck with me fellas! This ain't my first time at the rodeo.

America-it was a good run while it lasted. RIP!
Motorelay
Posts: 168
Incept: 2021-09-20

Connecticut
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Regardless of why the left is so smitten with Roe, I believe that the really frightening thing about all this (to the leftists) is the fact that the tide has turned on abortion, that during a Biden / Harris administration hell-bent on vaxx mandates, open borders, climate change, CRT, kid-grooming, and whatever the hell other socialist insanity they come up with next, someone on the right actually had the balls to shoot down their Holy Grail -- Roe.

There is no better way for the Right to raise their hands and holler, "See? We're still out here! The world is not totally your oyster, after all!"

What nerve! What gall! What a delightful and infuriating way to flip the bird to liberals and globalists everywhere!
Bzelbob
Posts: 230
Incept: 2021-09-12

Jacksonville
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@Tickerguy - Great ticker.smiley
Quote:
If there are 50 state laboratories in a few years, certainly within a decade we will see if any of the possible good things -- or some bad ones -- come to pass. We'll have multiple different states, different sets of rules and different outcomes.

The evidence will rapidly accumulate as to who was right -- and who was wrong.

This 'laboratories' thing is incredibly important and applicable to many groups, from Families to States to Nations, each one a little laboratory of it's own.
Also think you're right about the many unintended consequences that can/will happen if Roe is overturned.

Actions do have consequences, and the consequences pile up fast.

I've heard this called Matthew effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_ef....
which summarized is something like "Success breeds more success while Failure breeds more failure."

In related vein, was an accident here in Jax last month, where a pilot flying a glider was killed.
Apparently he hadn't gotten his elevator control assembly connected up right and couldn't maneuver when the tow rope was released.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2022....

Like you've said about SCUBA, sometimes you gotta know what the F you are doing, or else!
Mother Nature don't give second chances.

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"Threats are illogical. And payment is usually expensive." - Sarek of Vulcan
Sonoran_monk
Posts: 450
Incept: 2021-08-16

Between a saguaro and an arroyo.
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Excellent thesis well stated.

The companies want the women married to their jobs. These boss babes don't need no man! They're strong and independent working for their male bosses.

On a wider societal level, chaos is good business, to wit all the 'wars on' concepts or inanimate objects that just serve to create endless conflicts that have an insatiable appetite for money and bodies.

Then there's the ghoulish contingent of society that relishes in the death and destruction of others.

The government screws up everything they touch and all they have has been stolen.
Ingar
Posts: 287
Incept: 2017-02-14

Mobile,AL
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It seems to me that abortion used as an adjunct to contraception tends to undermine the value placed on human life. The arguments promoting abortion were strongly based on preventing unwanted pregnancies resulting from******and incest or to protect the life of the mother; a small percentage of abortions are performed for these purposes. The practice evolved to being one of remediating a lack of competent contraceptive practice or to end the pregnancy that was inconvenient for a woman.
Public health measures like clean water, improved hygiene, and vaccinations (real ones that can prevent diseases with high mortality rates) all contributed to the increased life expectancy of America. These measures and welfare transfer payment programs also enabled a lot of the less capable to increase their numbers and their drain on society.
Society needs to address these dysgenic trends in a calm and reasoned manner before it is overwhelmed with potential Darwin award winners.
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