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Uncephalized
Posts: 37
Incept: 2021-11-14

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@Kikknback @Motorelay why do you think heart disease et al are/were not common to modern levels in traditional bread-eating cultures like Italy and France? Grain based bread has been a staple food in Europe for thousands of years. Have the grains themselves changed? Is it that we are now eating mostly chemically processed flours that have not undergone natural fermentation, a la traditional processes?

I've recently gotten into making my own artisan bread entirely from scratch, so naturally I'm curious about this topic. I'd like to think there is a nutritional difference between the bread I make, which incorporates nothing but unbleached flour, water, yeast, and salt; vs a storebought loaf of "bread product". At the very least, it is 10X more delicious than anything I've ever bought ready-made, especially when enjoyed with a hunk of good sharp cheese and dabbled in EVOO.
Tickerguy
Posts: 183871
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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@Uncephalized - It's evolution, largely. While the Brits do get diabetes at a significant rate from fast carbs go feed the same load to the Inuit and watch the heart disease and diabetes EXPLODE.

Oh wait, we already did that, and it did.

In another 500,000 years it may well be that humans will be entirely capable of handling fast carbs without damage.

Maybe.

Of course you'll be long dead and so will your children, so does that really matter? No.

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Civil Society requires 99%+ consent.
Stop consenting and it is forced to stop. Always.
No violence required.

Uncephalized
Posts: 37
Incept: 2021-11-14

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@Tickerguy I quite agree that some populations are better-adapted to certain diets than others; that doesn't get at the crux of the question I'm asking.

Given that we have a population derived from one of these carb-tolerant genetic stocks--basically any European-heritage people--why is it that the modern diet induces pathology, where the traditional diet did not?

Both diets contain a large proportion of carbs from cereal grains, predominantly wheat, which is high in gluten. We know perfectly well that traditional breads also contained copious gluten, because it is necessary for the formation of the crust and rise characteristic of traditional breads like baguette. French people were known to enjoy bread at every meal, but traditionally were not fat, diabetic, or arteriosclerotic, whereas today many are. So what is the actual change?

The possibilities seem to be

1) there is a qualitative difference between traditional scratch-made breads and modern industrial breads,

2) there is a qualitative difference in the raw material (flour) used today to bake these breads (some GMO difference in the gluten?), or

3) some other difference(s) in diet or lifestyle explain the change.

Or, of course, a combination.

For me, the industrial seed-oil hypothesis is more convincing. That stuff seems like pure metabolic poison, and is a truly novel agent in the diet, which coincides strongly with the modern downturn in physical health. High amounts of refined sugar, of course, seem dangerous also.

I suspect that eating grains, especially fermented by yeast as in traditional breads, is just fine, provided that your diet is also well-supplied in nutritious animal products and traditionally-valued fats like olive oil.
Tickerguy
Posts: 183871
Incept: 2007-06-26
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You're looking for an excuse to be able to do something @Uncephalized. Have at it; you only get one trial on one person, which is you, so if you're convinced then do what you'd like.

I see no benefit and plenty of harm from fast carbohydrates in all of their forms. Any plant-based oil cannot be consumed in quantity absent industrial process, so that's clearly something that was never adapted to by humans as we simply never had it in our diets, ever. Unless you have a gluten sensitivity, however (and some people do) that's not the gating factor with fast carbohydrates because its not limited to breads and similar.

The Inuit ate a near-zero carbohydrate diet for a couple of thousand years and had near-zero cardiovascular and metabolic disease -- until fast carbohydrates were introduced to them. Then it exploded.

The confounder would APPEAR to be places like China, where they lived on rice (a fast carb) for thousands of years. But -- they lived on it in very sparse quantities, and were basically never able to fill their glycogen stores simply because they couldn't afford it. As soon as they COULD afford it, both metabolic and cardiovascular disease, along with obesity, skyrocketed.

Incidentally, ditto for Europe and Britain. Yeah, they ate them -- but as peasants. Witness those who were NOT limited by funds (e.g. Royalty) who routinely became extremely fat and metabolically compromised. Indeed being fat was a marker of wealth because nobody else could afford to eat enough -- of anything -- to become fat.

Of course you ignore ALL of that because you're neither a peasant nor willing to live like one, even though the empirical evidence is overwhelming and identical across nations and even continents.

Fast carbs will keep you alive if you're a peasant, in short, because while their nutritional value is for dog**** on a comparative basis they do contain energy.

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Civil Society requires 99%+ consent.
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Frat
Posts: 10249
Incept: 2009-07-15

NKY
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@Tickerguy

You've made this point before, and it holds: if you're a peasant, you don't consume enough of ANYTHING because you don't have it. Fast carbs there keep you from starving, but that's about it.

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We're ****ed. There will be no happy ending here; there is no going back to 'normal.'. There are only bad outcomes and worse outcomes. And we don't get to choose those, either.
Uncephalized
Posts: 37
Incept: 2021-11-14

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@Tickerguy I do enjoy my homemade bread, yes. Enjoyment of food is certainly a benefit in life. Of course I would like to continue it if it is not going to otherwise damage my quality of life. If good bread is no loss to you, cool. It is to me. Which is why I'm asking the question.

The seeming contradiction between your blanket admonition against carbs and the physical experience of millennia of healthy bread-eating people, from whom I descend, gives me cause for consideration.

As for the plant fats, I think we agree, though olive oil seems to be the exception. Extracted very simply via primitive mechanical means, it has historically made up a big chunk of Mediterranean diets since pre-Greco-Roman times, to the tune of several hundred calories from oil per day over the entire lifespan. I'd call that a reliable track record.

Reason: wrong tags used
Uncephalized
Posts: 37
Incept: 2021-11-14

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Apologies, didn't catch the edit before reply. You make a fair point, though I think you're mistaken about the historical scarcity of food for the average peasant, in, say, medieval Britain, or in the pre-industrial Mediterranean. Famines were events, not the normal state of affairs, for most people. So I don't buy that it is as simple as the availability of calories.

And I'm not asking for permission to eat 5 pounds of bread a day. I'm trying to establish whether eating a historically moderate amount of quality bread is a healthful or damaging dietary habit.
Heartlander
Posts: 1635
Incept: 2021-02-25

Kansas
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@Tsherry
Quote:
He died of an aggressive sort of liver failure, two months start to dead. He was 58. Didn't drink, smoke or otherwise abuse. Odds on jabs are pretty good, I suspect.

Yeah, liver damage from those jabs seems to be a newly emerging theme. And I would suppose that's related to the increase in hepatitis among the vaxxxed.
Shadowmask
Posts: 2721
Incept: 2021-05-24

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Modern wheat is genetically modified. This change happened in the past 70 years. It resulted in higher yields, but explosion of celiac disease and other gluten sensitivities. So yes, modern wheat is more dangerous to more people than the historical varieties such that peasants used to eat. No, making your own bread at home using the exact same **** wheat does not make a difference.
Tickerguy
Posts: 183871
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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What is a "historically moderate" amount in your mind?

That's the problem. A "historically moderate" amount of rice didn't kill everyone in China either. Ditto with historical European diets, which had portions about a fifth to a quarter of what we consume today, and in addition to that their exertion levels were several times ours. As soon as that "historically moderate" amount was violated along with exertion levels coming down in each and every one of these places obesity, metabolic and cardiovascular disease all skyrocketed. This is very solid evidence that humans simply cannot consume fast carbohydrates in amounts sufficient to fill glycogen storage on any sort of routine basis and if you do the odds are high you're going to get ****ed. That the ****ing has always been more-severe in places where near-ZERO carbs were previously consumed (e.g. the Inuit) is strong (but not conclusive) evidence that human evolution does adapt over time to carbohydrate load in the diet. However, exactly zero of that adaptation will do a thing for a single individual over their lifetime since evolutionary adaptation typically takes hundreds of serial generations to make a material difference. Statistically speaking it is ridiculously improbable you will be the exception.

BTW if you're curious how much storage there is that's about 1,000 kcal of liberative glycogen stored in the liver, and, depending on musculature, somewhere around 700-1,000 more in the muscles. But -- that stored in a muscle cannot be re-liberated for use anywhere else in the body as the muscles lack the enzyme required to do so, so once stored three it remains until used in that specific muscle. Only the liver can re-release said glycogen generally into the circulation for general uptake and use by any body tissue that requires it.

Metabolically glycogen is preferred simply because its easier to process. This is why you can store energy as fat but it is also why you will not lose fat until and unless you deplete the stored glycogen, as the metabolism of glycogen to ATP (which is what all living cells actually use for fuel -- it is NOT "glucose" as is often said -- glucose is a pathway to ATP) is preferred over that of lipids.

I've written at quite-significant length on all of this over the last 15 years in this column and frankly am not inclined to go back through it all again. The "personal health" category (which you can find in the archives) has many (but not all) of those articles available here on the -NAD side and marked exempt.

Enjoy your bread.

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Civil Society requires 99%+ consent.
Stop consenting and it is forced to stop. Always.
No violence required.

3dogs
Posts: 101
Incept: 2018-12-25

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@uncephalized

The only way to determine if bread is a healthful or damaging dietary habit to you.

Is to stop eating it for month or two, then reintroduce it, and see how you feel especially when you take a ****.

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I don't care if it hurts! I only care if you can't feel it!
Egallred
Posts: 58
Incept: 2020-08-27

PNW
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Another factor with fast carbs is that in pre-industrial times everything everyone did required fairly significant amounts of effort and therefore helped burn off the carbs. Sure, you got a good amount of carbs from that bread, but you burned it off hand-washing your clothes and beating the dirt out of the rugs.
Uncephalized
Posts: 37
Incept: 2021-11-14

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@Tickerguy What is a "historically moderate" amount in your mind?

I'm not really sure. Maybe a half pound to a pound, aka a small to medium boule, on a day when I am actively out working in the garden, building, smithing, or chopping wood, which is most days. I am, as you rightly point out, experimenting on myself. There are other aspects of my lifestyle I could have under better regulation, not least my sleep schedule, that I suspect play an equal role to diet in my overall health picture.

What information is easily available on historical diets indicate peasant farmers often ate multiple pounds of grain bread a day, but of course they worked harder than I do, and the composition of those breads would have varied wildly. Many of these folks were healthy and robust, and many weren't.

Generally I tend to the opinion that absent industrial-poison "foods" and given an active, outdoor habit, our bodies are pretty flexible about exactly what mix of fuels we feed them. I will enjoy my bread for now. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Uncephalized
Posts: 37
Incept: 2021-11-14

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@3dogs I pay very close attention to the "**** test", LOL. As a teen my diet was an absolute mess, and I developed pretty severe IBS with constipation that went on for years. Fortunately I cleaned up the underlying issue in my 20s, but there is some "damage done" and I am pretty sensitive to changes in that regard.
Quantum
Posts: 426
Incept: 2021-05-18

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@uncephalized

FWIW-An additional consideration is that modern wheat varieties are different from what ancestors ate. Some people who have gastro or other difficulties with modern wheat can handle heirloom or ancient varieties like Turkey Red or Einkorn.
Drifter
Posts: 1257
Incept: 2016-02-11

Pacific Northwest
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Zoo vaxxed its animals then the 'unexpected' happened.

https://www.valleycentral.com/news/local....

Marth the gorilla was vaxxed and 'died suddenly and unexpectedly' at the Porter zoo of multiple organ failure.



Inline
Heartlander
Posts: 1635
Incept: 2021-02-25

Kansas
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@Quantum
Quote:
Some people who have gastro or other difficulties with modern wheat can handle heirloom or ancient varieties like Turkey Red or Einkorn.

But even the old varieties might be a problem depending on the chemicals used in growing and storing them. If you can find absolutely pure organically raised heirloom wheat that was also STORED and processed without any chemicals, go for it.
Eleua
Posts: 20200
Incept: 2007-07-05
A True American Patriot!
N 47.72/ W 122.55
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Correct me if I am wrong, but there is s difference between vegetable oils and fruit oils, under the umbrella of "plant" oils.

Plant oils (bad) - such as corn oil or "vegetable" oil. They have to be produced unnaturally and the concentrations of such overwhelm the human metabolic system. Canola oil is straight up poison.

Fruit oils are generally just pressed and consumed and generally do not have the problems the vegetable oils have. These would be olive, palm, coconut, avocado...

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Diversity + proximity = WAR
We are governed by sexual degenerates, Satanists, traitors, retards, cowards, sociopaths, and megalomaniacs - CHANGE MY MIND
That kind of sums up the last month since the election, a giant amber alert for Trump's balls. - Davkj1
Tickerguy
Posts: 183871
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Weeeeeeellllllll.... maybe @Eleua.

The test is a bit more-simple, really, in terms of what is suspect (without proof) and what isn't.

If you didn't -- and thus couldn't -- reasonably get more than a small amount of a given oil in your diet without mechanical assistance then AT MOST the human system has perhaps a few hundred years of exposure to it in volume, and our gut (and the rest of our metabolic processes) did NOT develop with it in common prevalence. This instantly excludes all vegetable oils because you could never get more than a tiny amount of corn oil by eating actual corn, for example.

Is the amount of olive oil you would ingest using it as a salad dressing a problem? Probably not. But can you use it with wild abandon? There's no evidence to suggest our gut knows how to deal with it because prior to fairly significant mechanical advantage required to press it in volume it wasn't available in volume to be consumed. Was there some consumed? Sure. Same with coconut oil; there was some consumed by eating coconuts, which people almost-certainly did in places where there were coconuts. But in amounts not compatible with consumption of the underlying thing -- there's no evidence, and the burden that its ok falls on the person asserting it is, since there certainly isn't thousands of years of high-volume consumption in our history to back up such a claim.

On the other hand the fat on a hunk of meat and fish was consumed by humans for as long as there were humans (and in the case of fish as long as man has known how to fish.) There's no question that the human gut developed in an environment where such was a large part of the diet and thus that evolutionary pressure would select FOR the consumption of same.

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Civil Society requires 99%+ consent.
Stop consenting and it is forced to stop. Always.
No violence required.

Reformedhippy
Posts: 2549
Incept: 2020-07-01

Rural, OK
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Honestly, why saute, fry, cook, bake, and create sauces and dressings with any fats and oils other than butter, ghee, tallow, lard, and bacon grease when they are so abundant and easy to procure?
Winston2020
Posts: 335
Incept: 2020-03-29

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"False or misleading" is, of course, whatever they say it is which means outside of the desired official narrative which, of course, has been exposed even in the mainstream media as a lie on how many occasions by now? That then naturally leads to the second sin, "undermine public trust in U.S. government institutions."

Is this Orwellian or what?

*** emphasis is mine. Excerpts:

National Terrorism Advisory System Bulletin - February 07, 2022

Summary of Terrorism Threat to the U.S. Homeland

https://www.dhs.gov/ntas/advisory/nation....

The United States remains in a heightened threat environment fueled by several factors, including an online environment filled with false or misleading narratives and conspiracy theories, and other forms of mis- dis- and mal-information (MDM) introduced and/or amplified by foreign and domestic threat actors. These threat actors seek to exacerbate societal friction to sow discord and undermine public trust in government institutions to encourage unrest, which could potentially inspire acts of violence. Mass casualty attacks and other acts of targeted violence conducted by lone offenders and small groups acting in furtherance of ideological beliefs and/or personal grievances pose an ongoing threat to the nation. While the conditions underlying the heightened threat landscape have not significantly changed over the last year, the convergence of the following factors has increased the volatility, unpredictability, and complexity of the threat environment: (1) the proliferation of false or misleading narratives, which sow discord or undermine public trust in U.S. government institutions;

Additional Details

The primary terrorism-related threat to the United States continues to stem from lone offenders or small cells of individuals who are motivated by a range of foreign and/or domestic grievances often cultivated through the consumption of certain online content. The convergence of violent extremist ideologies, false or misleading narratives, and conspiracy theories have and will continue to contribute to a heightened threat of violence in the United States.

Key factors contributing to the current heightened threat environment include:

1. The proliferation of false or misleading narratives, which ***sow discord or undermine public trust in U.S. government institutions***:

- For example, there is widespread online proliferation of false or misleading narratives regarding unsubstantiated widespread election fraud and COVID-19.
Jw.
Posts: 441
Incept: 2019-10-10

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@Dingleberry

Remind me again which Republican senators and congress critters were against the lockdowns and mandatory vaccinations???

Yeah....

Technica
Posts: 47
Incept: 2020-04-10

Oklahoma
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@Packetcap

For the first time in my local obituaries one actually stated about it in the first sentence:

"...passed away on April 25, 2022 in the early morning hours at the age of 40 due to a massive cardiac event."
Frieza
Posts: 178
Incept: 2019-03-09

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@Shadowmask
Shadowmask wrote..
Modern wheat is genetically modified
Not exactly. To date, there are no GM varieties of wheat that are grown commercially (though there have been claims that some of the experimental ones escaped during field tests and ended up in the food supply). Modern hard red winter and soft white winter wheat were created through hybrid breeding techniques during the Green Revolution. So yes, the stuff that's used in 90%+ of commercial products is a breed of wheat that didn't exist 100 years ago, but it wasn't made by blasting insect and jellyfish DNA into it with a gene gun like we did with corn and rice.
Shadowmask
Posts: 2721
Incept: 2021-05-24

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Coconut oil is a great moisturizer.
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