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Tickerguy
Posts: 168083
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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@Invisiblesun - They just counted all the flu deaths as Covid. Shazam! Look, it's magic!

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Purplefang
Posts: 108
Incept: 2010-03-28

Oklahoma
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If you watch any TV news at all you can see a story about covid almost continuously. Mostly all lies. Cases are rising. Wear a mask. Test before you travel. Don't travel. The ICUs are filling up. It's cold and flu season. Blah Blah Blah I have to laugh at the football players always testing positive and the refs and coaches fiddling with their masks on live TV.
Spanky
Posts: 75
Incept: 2011-03-22

United States
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Hi Karl, A friend of mine provided this info in an effort to debunk the fecal-oral transmission route. Thoughts on this? It's probably worth going over the details of how some of this stuff works to see why viral RNA and live virus are not the same thing.

All viruses have at least two parts, a genetic payload (either DNA or RNA) and a protein shell (called a capsid). Some viruses have an additional envelope of proteins and lipids, splitting viruses into enveloped and non-enveloped categories.

All these parts have to be configured correctly to be infectious. A single infectious unit is called a viron. Collectively, such infectious units are sometimes referred to as live virus (though there's a mostly irrelevant philosophical debate about this term).

Now, when using PCR to detect a viral infection, one of the first steps is "extraction"--basically breaking open infected cells and virons to expose the genetic payload and separating away everything else.

So the basic PCR method _inherently_ cannot distinguish between viral RNA from infected cells, viral RNA from virons, or viral RNA debris.

The debris is important here. Viruses generally aren't that sturdy; they're playing a numbers game. So viruses get damaged and their RNA released all the time.

This is where enveloped vs non-enveloped viruses come in. Coronaviruses are enveloped. Enteroviruses, so called, because they infect the entera (GI tract) and are characterized by... fecal-oral transmission, are non-enveloped. These include polio, Coxsackie (hand-foot-mouth), and echovirus. Norovirus is not an enterovirus but it is also non-enveloped and also transmitted fecal-oral.

There's a reason fecal-oral viruses are usually non-enveloped. The envelope makes virons more fragile, so they tend to get damaged in the GI tract. This deactivates them, but it also exposes their genetic payload, making them detectable with PCR even though there may be no ifectious virons.

The fact that SARS-CoV-2 is enveloped makes it less likely to survive the GI tract and be transmitted fecal-oral.

Here's a handy-dandy recent paper on this topic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article....

The money quotes:

"We found that fecal-oral transmission was strongly associated with absence of a lipid envelope (Fig. 2). Of the 16 viruses known to be transmitted by the fecal-oral route in humans analyzed here (Fig. 1), none have lipid envelopes."

"This was strongly though not universally supported in the animal virus data as well."

"The lack of envelope in fecal-oral transmitted viruses is readily rationalized by the known fragility of lipid bilayers. A lipid membrane is expected to be disrupted by drying, and material in the lumen of the human gut is dehydrated in the colon. In the upper GI tract, stomach acid provides another chemical barrier. Lipid bilayers are also disrupted by detergents, and bile acids serve as detergents in gut. In addition, in order to survive after shedding from gut into the environment, a viral particle must survive in its new chemical environment as well. Thus the strict lack of lipid membranes is readily understood as a requirement for survival in diverse chemically harsh environments."

So, in contrast to your deduction, the _general_ lesson from virology is that enveloped viruses in humans are not transmitted fecal-oral.
Tickerguy
Posts: 168083
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Uh huh.

Except @Spanky, the studies that have been done on this have all found that nearly all samples isolated from the environment are in fact RNA, not complete, capsid-present virons.

Which of course means that the emitted "things" from your nose and mouth are also non-infectious. And that asymptomatic people who "test positive" are likely not infectious either! Yet we're calling them "cases" and isolating them when what we can pick up and detect cannot infect anyone else. I've noted this repeatedly -- how come that douche-nozzle does not note THAT, and thus that testing non-symptomatics is an open and notorious fraud?

But -- that last paper cited, where 10x the median contamination was found in the bathrooms, found that while most samples were in fact non-culturable -- that is, they were PCR positive but not infectious, this was on a closely-ratable basis -- that is, at 10x over-representation even though most of the samples are not infectious if you have 1/10 that are then you've still got a hell of a lot more of it that is coming out your ass than your mouth and nose.

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Ihsmta
Posts: 657
Incept: 2008-04-10

Midwest, USA
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I was recently at meeting in a group of about eight older men. Afterward we were sitting around discussing Covid-19.

I told them that for clean freaks and germaphobes like me, we hope that the "pandemic" changes certain social practices such as hand shaking. I hate hand shaking. They laughed. I asked them how many men they observed washing their hands when they left a public restroom? They all admitted that many didn't.

I answered, "So there. When I shake a man's hand I suspect there's a 50/50 chance that he didn't wash his hands after he used the restroom. At best, I might as well be shaking his dick..."

Awkward silence. The look of horror on their faces was priceless.

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"Economists are no different than the prophets of ancient Pompeii who reassured that Mt Vesuvius would never blow. After all, it never had before." Baxter Black, DVM and Cowboy Poet

"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality." Ayn Rand
Quik49
Posts: 8743
Incept: 2007-12-11

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HVAC....supply high return low.

Masks...since day one....bull****....
had it out yesterday at the state store.... Put my terrorist gig on....they have the magic plastic shield up...then they touch every bottle....including previous customer....then ask for ID regardless if age so they can run it in their system.....then hand it back. This is all new since my last visit 3 months ago. I said wtf is thus all about along with dude behind me. No,answer but....its the system. I replied, its for our safety eh, just like that stupid mask, plastic shield and you touching everything in my cart and now my wallet. The mask is all you hear about anymore...not keeping your hands clean.... **** that place, off to Wyoming for a run.

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Happyapricot
Posts: 20
Incept: 2019-07-06

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I do not make public policy. My question is how do I use this information to stay alive?

If I stay out of the restroom and pass over the deli, is it safe to visit the grocery store? If a fart has the virus, then what do you do? Do I have to stay away form customer queues? Do you still have to wipe down your soup and beer cans? Avoid family gatherings this holiday season?

I have asthma and copd. I don't want to get sick. But we have been staying in now for almost a year. It is starting to become stressful.
Tickerguy
Posts: 168083
Incept: 2007-06-26
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@Happyapricot -- There is nothing you can do.

As I pointed out in the previous essay the facts are what they are. We all know that "containing droplets" is pointless since THE LIQUID PORTION is NOT the infectious part. The infectious part is a fraction of a micrometer in size and does not go away when the droplet evaporates; it is in fact liberated into the environment!

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A FLU SEASON; LOWER ABSOLUTE HUMIDITY, ESPECIALLY INDOORS, MEANS THAT EVAPORATION HAPPENS FASTER.

Other than by destruction of its stability you cannot get rid of it. Destruction of its stability occurs through time and, especially UV exposure.

It is very hard to pass the virus to others outdoors for this reason. Not impossible, but difficult; dilution and UV inactivation both serve to make it difficult. Top-to-bottom airflow indoors where the return air is either high-exposure UV sterilized or expelled outdoors is likely to be somewhat effective, but the problem with most UV HVAC units is that the airflow rate is too high and thus the exposure time too short; their real value is in destruction of pathogens on the filter media and coils, which is mostly useful against bacteria, pollens, molds and similar. Viruses are simply too small, if on a droplet the water evaporates and the virus is liberated, the media will not trap it and the UV exposure time is too short to inactivate it due to the velocity of the flow.

You add all this up and it comes down to bolstering your immune system rather than trying to interdict either the source or your inhalation of the virus itself because there is simply no realistic way for you to evade exposure with anything less than a PAPR and full hood plus decontamination whenever you go to take it off, and nobody is going to do that in the general public.

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Egallred
Posts: 2
Incept: 2020-08-27

PNW
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@Spanky
You should send your friend this study from the CDC's own journal where the successfully cultured SARS-CoV-2 from the feces of an infected patient.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/2....

It is a case study of a single patient that eventually died but this proves it is possible. If the CDC were a useful organization they would have done an extensive survey to figure out how common this is.
Tbird242
Posts: 42
Incept: 2014-07-14

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@Flyanddive, @Expat_tom.... april 17,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U4DAQ3k....
UVC Disinfect Public Spaces (5 minutes in)?

KD..""Putting UV in will attenuate fecal aerosols but does not
for surface contamination unless you can reasonably irradiate all
the surfaces, and you can't.""
since it is a light, wouldn't it hit all surfaces not shaded? if not, couldn't 2 (or more) fixtures be used?
Jwjw
Posts: 29
Incept: 2019-07-13

Rocky Mountains
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There is an age-old solution: "bolstering your immune system"

The analysis and writing here is so good it may appeal to longer form readers, like Rolling Stone magazine.
Spanky
Posts: 75
Incept: 2011-03-22

United States
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Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I do find this sleuthing/deduction interesting: A summary of information in the fecal-oral vs respiratory droplet argument:

One would expect lipid bilayer viruses (enveloped) to experience seasonality, while naked viruses do not experience the same seasonality https://idpjournal.biomedcentral.com/art....
we have seen Iran, Italy, India experiencing outbreaks during very hot months of the year, so lack of seasonality supports Covid-19 existing in a non-enveloped form as well.

As noted previously, lipid bilayer encapsulation protects more fragile viruses, and tends to be desiccated and hit with bile (detergent) in the gut, both of which destroy the lipid bilayer. This might also explain the effectiveness of hand washing, it removes the lipid bilayer and kills the virus.

But then we have a few problems with the droplet transmission-only theory: (1) some viruses exist in quasi-enveloped states, being infectious both with and without a lipid bilayer (e.g. Hepatitis A), Im not aware of any corona viruses being infectious in both states, but possible (see #3 below) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28490497.... (2) There are cases of enveloped viruses transmitting via fecal-oral in the animal kingdom, and this did come from animals (claim at least bat/pangolin); (3) Scientists were able to culture the virus from at least one patients feces, meaning it DID make it through the gut and come out live, this invalidates the it cant theory against fecal-oral.

Now we know that we find high volumes of Virus RNA on and around toilets. This indicates shedding of virus RNA through fecal routes. The non-fecal-oral argument then says, so what those RNA are not enveloped, so they are not infectious. The fecal-oral argument is, the patient above was able to culture live infectious virus from feces, so you cannot claim that; further, the volume is 10X larger than other sources, so even a fraction of that RNA material being live virus makes it a powerful transmission route. Further, there is the possibility that Covid-19 is quasi-enveloped like Hep-A, remaining infectious in either form. Furthermore, nearly ALL specimens found in the environment are RNA, not capsid-present enveloped virons. In other words, if you apply the same encapsulated viron criteria to other potential transmission vector (e.g. water droplets) they too fail the infectious test just as is claimed of fecal RNA.
Spanky
Posts: 75
Incept: 2011-03-22

United States
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one more point in favor of the fecal-oral route:
More studies than just Wang found viable live virus in feces: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/sars-cov-2.... Further, the relatives to Covid-19, SARS and MERS, were also shown to infect the small intestine, so they DID make it through the digestive system, so that kinda invalidates the absolutist enveloped viruses cannot survive the gut claim.
Tickerguy
Posts: 168083
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Exactly @Spanky -- and I pointed this out in February, as there were two documented outbreaks where there was no other plausible form of transmission (vertically-stacked apartments on the same sewer line, no P-traps in the bathrooms, and the index and victims did not know each other.) The odds of respiratory transmission in such a situation are astronomically long yet the lack of P-traps means you're going to expel fecal aerosols out the sink drain every time someone uses flushes a toilet on that line.

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Spanky
Posts: 75
Incept: 2011-03-22

United States
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Agreed Karl, but in the stacked apartment example, playing devil's advocate, couldn't the virus have been passed via droplet (or fecal matter) on elevator button, banister, or similar ?
Tickerguy
Posts: 168083
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Unlikely because the transmission was localized to those on the stacked line. The odds of that happening by random chance while leaving others alone is wildly improbable.

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Tbird242
Posts: 42
Incept: 2014-07-14

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HLcg9n-....


One America News Network

Doctors speak out on misinformation surrounding the coronavirus!!
Spanky
Posts: 75
Incept: 2011-03-22

United States
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Another pro fecal-oral point: Airborne water droplet based transmission is strongly susceptible to humidity. Basically, the humidity binds with the droplet and cuts the infection radius in half in high humidity (e.g. houston, iran, florida, india, etc.) But I'm not seeing that in infection rates in these places. Of course fecal-oral doesn't have that same impact from humidity.
Tickerguy
Posts: 168083
Incept: 2007-06-26
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@Spanky -- Exactly. That's what condemned the primarily-airborne route for me early on in that we saw very nasty outbreaks in very warm places near the equator very early.

That right there said this was almost-certainly fecal at least in large part. I'm sure you CAN transmit it via aerosols and droplets, but it's not the PRIMARY means of spread.

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Aerius
Posts: 917
Incept: 2008-03-19

GTA
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So 10 months into this debacle and the local news station just did a segment featuring a disease researcher who confirms that it's fecal-oral. Of course, it was buried 40 minutes in where most folks would've missed it.

There's a reason the spread went exponential up here starting soon after kids went back to school. Kids are filthy little butt scratchers who don't wash their hands and touch everything around them with their snot & **** contaminated fingers. Other than incontinent folks in nursing homes, it's hard to find a better way to spread this thing than cramming hundreds of kids together in the same building.
Tickerguy
Posts: 168083
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Any links on that?

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I don't give a flying **** if you're offended.
Quik49
Posts: 8743
Incept: 2007-12-11

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Brings a hole new meaning to

Uranus

Jokes.


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Kikknback
Posts: 83
Incept: 2020-03-17

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So, I'm walking out of the corner store just now (NOT WEARING A MASK), and this man (wearing a mask OUTSIDE) is standing next to his car while the gas is pumping just glaring at me as I walk towards my vehicle, which happens to be right across the pump from his on the opposite side. (God, I wanted him to mouth off so bad)

So, halfway across the parking lot, I start my loud broadcasting voice towards him:

ME: Hey, you know what? I just watched a youtube video of 15 doctors standing on the steps of the USSC proving masks are a fraud, and do nothing.

HIM: Good, good.
(Any person with a brain would've asked the title, so they could have gone and watched it or asked for more info pertaining to the facts divulged)

ME: I keep walking, and get to my door. I take another step forward, so he can see my face, and I say to him, "You know you can get bacterial pneumonia from wearing your mask, and DIE".

HIM: Silence (Wouldn't even look me in the face)

ME: (unlock door and get in, and drive off)

People, I'm not going to lie to you here. It felt good telling this clown he was an idiot, without actually having to tell him he IS an idiot.
Erroldo
Posts: 75
Incept: 2013-09-12

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This forum is the only one I can find discussing the mechanism(s) by which covid is spreading.
Given the rise in cases and no intent to lock down(good), a public discussion and analysis is needed of exactly how this is spreading, and from that implement public public policy and responses to keep this at bay. Several have been outlined on this forum on spread vectors and proposed responses, but this need to get into govt discussion and policy. A lot is wearing mask and spread rising. not working. If it is a public discussion that a major vector is the bathroom usage(fecal) then the sheeple will begin to pay attention. Look how masks caught on when they do not work. Because the govt say to wear it. same message to prevent fecal spread would caught on because the govt say that's a major way to stop the spread.
Tbird242
Posts: 42
Incept: 2014-07-14

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in case you tube pulls it.....

https://www.bitchute.com/video/SuPpy7SGo....
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