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User Info Finito On The Covid Nonsense in forum [Market-Ticker]
Frat
Posts: 2979
Incept: 2009-07-15

NKY
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@ Asi

Yup. I repeat: I'm not a germophobe. I just think public restrooms are ****ing disgusting.

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We're ****ed. Where's Henry Bowman when you need him?
Uwe
Posts: 8796
Incept: 2009-01-03
A True American Patriot!
USA
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Tonythetiger wrote..
If your poop has the virus in it you're already infected.

Yes, of course. I'm not worried about infecting myself. I'm worried about the waiter, bar-tender, or grocery store worker who actually tried to do the right thing by washing his hands after he took a dump. I'm pointing out that hand-washing, although obviously highly desirable, may not be a panacea.

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"Corona Virus will come and go, but government will NEVER forget how easy it was to take control of everyone's life; to control every sporting event, classroom, restaurant table, church pew, and even whether you are allowed to leave your house.
Tickerguy
Posts: 166194
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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@Uwe - Thus my recommendation to move the sink and soap outside the restroom.

Put a camera on it for good measure.

Now (1) public shaming will take care of most of the compliance problem and (2) you wash your hands with soap and water AFTER EXITING the contaminated area.

In other words it actually works.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Whitehat
Posts: 2686
Incept: 2017-06-27

Gone West
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@Tickerguy -- yes Karl and in addition it would probably solve a lot of seasonal cold and flu outbreaks. Want to know that some already get it?

Many years ago one of the local NYC TV news programs did an expose as to how filthy delis and food establishments were in general. Many were embarrassed by the surprise "inspections." One stood out for a different reason. It was a popular Jewish delicatessen in Manhattan. When the news crew arrived unexpectedly with inspectors and experts in food safety, the owner did something surprising. He enthusiastically invited them in and gave full access. They could find nothing wrong. The inspectors and experts were actually impressed. They were doing everything correctly and to a higher degree than necessary. Guess what was behind the counter at the employee entrance door and in the other food handling and preparation area? You got it, a free standing sink with soap and hand and nail brush. Anyone entering those areas was required to wash hands properly, no exceptions.

Now the employees were handling food with bare hands in the above example and the inspectors did mention it to the owners, however noted that with the attention to hygiene the establishment was achieving a higher degree of safety than using gloves.

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Keeping the underground economy keeps the peace and allows rebellious elements to protest their condition without actually protesting the government.

What were you doing over the years as your children's future was being destroyed? Do not expect them to fix your mistakes or tolerate you for them.
Tickerguy
Posts: 166194
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Yep.

Gloves actually DEGRADE safety provided you do not have gaping wounds (EVERYONE has *some* permeability around their fingers; gimme a jeweler's loupe and I'll show you!)

The problem is that your hands are a surface that both sloughs off epithelial cells (harmless by themselves, but potentially contaminated) but ALSO dessicates things. So there is some exchange, and thus dilution. A glove is a "hard surface"; it exchanges nothing. Anything that gets on it stays on it until mechanically removed or it dies through exposure. This is only good until the glove gets contaminated, then it is VERY bad compared with skin. In addition the rigor of scrubbing one's hands will violate virtually any disposable glove, so nobody does it nor can they; you'd have to instead change them on a ridiculous basis in a food service environment.

Now if you have visible hand damage, then maybe it militates the other way, but only because blood borne disease is a thing, and that's bad news both directions. But otherwise? Nope -- well and often-washed hands may not "win" in the lab, but they sure do in the real world.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Thor1974
Posts: 1
Incept: 2020-06-17

Utah
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Have been sending market-ticker.org to the people I know and banging the drum online and with people I know and work with about how aerosol spread isn't the primary mechanism. Tired of arguing with maskholes.

As the two epidemiologists from Oxford point out in this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3plSbCb....

masks are an uncertainty because there are no RCTs on masks, and evidence-based medicine requires RCTs. Weak population studies and even physical studies (i.e., we ran tests that show masks block X number of viral particles) just don't cut it when it comes to evidence-based medicine. RCTs are required.

Tired of arguing the science with maskholes. At this point, I tell people that if you aren't putting hand washing with soap and water on par with (or even above) masks, then you are doing everyone a disservice, especially if you are dealing with vulnerable populations. I've noticed that as masks have become the dominant narrative, hand hygiene has fallen by the wayside. I bet the big box stores love the mask mandates, because it means that the responsibility is now on you! They don't have to spend money keeping bathrooms spotless and making sure the soap dispenser is full or putting out tools to sanitize your carts as you walk in the door.
Burya_rubenstein
Posts: 1743
Incept: 2007-08-08


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Putting the sink outside the bathroom still leaves, and even exacerbates, the contaminated clothing problem Uwe mentioned. I've already been dealing with this for a long time now. In my own bathroom, or any single occupant bathroom for that matter, I only need use the sink before touching anything else. It's the traditional multi-user bathrooms with stalls, row of sinks, et al where the issue shows up. Best I've been able to do was pull up clothing with the pinky finger of each hand, then goto the sink and wash, then put the clothing on properly and usually wash again.

Maybe we ought to let the Trannies have their single-occupant bathrooms with Prince Rogers Nelson symbols instead of male-female icons on the doors!

As for infecting yourself with your own poo, there's far nastier things in the world than Covid, some of which you CAN infect yourself with (or at least prolong it) this way.
Tickerguy
Posts: 166194
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Well @Burya_rubenstein except that in most cases permeable surfaces (e.g. your pants) rapidly dessicate viruses and make for terrible vector sources for that reason. Don't think I'm discounting it entirely, because I'm not, but it's not anything like the problem with having the sink IN THE WASHROOM where the door pull is going to get contaminated and once it does after you're done washing you now must use it to get out.

That's a hard surface and will maintain infective material for a LOT longer than your pants will, never mind that for your pants the target list is "1". For a door handle it's hundreds over the space of a day.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me

Nadavegan
Posts: 264
Incept: 2017-05-03

The South
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In grad school, one of the guys in my group project was from India. An American student was teasing him about how gross India is because people "wipe with their hands". The Indian student finally reached his limit, and stood up and said "you know what is gross? You all. You smash **** around your ******* with paper, and then walk around all day with a dirty, smelly, itchy ass. We use soap and water and clean ourselves thoroughly. You are disgusting, no better than animals!"

I have rarely laughed as hard at anything else.

Back at the office where I worked before the end of history, the autoflush toilets in the restrooms flushed with the fury of 10,000 Karens. You could see the droplets all over the stainless steel fixtures, and if you didn't step forward three steps, you could feel a fine misting on your backside, and on your clothes. I took pictures of the stainless steel with turd droplets all over it and sent them to the office managers asking them to turn down the horsepower on those things, but they never replied. I wonder nowadays if they would?

Personally, I avoid the hygiene issues by timing things up for right before I am going to take a shower anyway. Much like learning to wake up without an alarm clock, it is amazing what the body can be trained to do!
Uwe
Posts: 8796
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KD wrote..
it's not anything like the problem with having the sink IN THE WASHROOM where the door pull is going to get contaminated and once it does after you're done washing you now must use it to get out.

I gave this some thought before my Memorial Day road trip. That was 600 miles each way and I knew from prior experience that I'd have to stop twice in each direction. Trying to drive for 8-1/2 hours without caffeine and getting dehydrated enough to not have to pee that whole time is something I wasn't willing to attempt. I also know the route well enough that I couldn't think of anyplace I could park the car and head into the woods, so public washrooms were the only real option. Besides, on the way back I had my daughter with me and women are funny about being told they have to go pee in the woods.

My solution: I brought along a pack of C-fold paper towels and stuck enough of them to dry my hands plus a few spares into my back pocket before I went inside each time. The spares were for the specific purpose of being a disposable buffer between my freshly washed hands and any door-pull that I might encounter on the way out.

Surprisingly, only one of the four stops involved a washroom door that had to be pulled open. One or two had such doors, but they had been propped in the open position (kudos to the establishments that did so).

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"Corona Virus will come and go, but government will NEVER forget how easy it was to take control of everyone's life; to control every sporting event, classroom, restaurant table, church pew, and even whether you are allowed to leave your house.
Asimov
Posts: 117838
Incept: 2007-08-26

East Tennessee
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Many rest areas, particularly the newer ones, don't have anything you have to touch to go pee. No doors, auto flush... Of course this is assuming you don't pee on your hands and need to wash them...

*Shrug*

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.

Festina lente.
Tickerguy
Posts: 166194
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True that. Provided you don't have to take a ****. But the problem is the high-power ****ters blow **** everywhere in the room when flushed.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Uwe
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Asi wrote..
Many rest areas, particularly the newer ones, don't have anything you have to touch to go pee.

Yup. But one of my pee stops inevitably gets combined with a fuel stop, so that won't be at a "rest area".

And no, I'm not gonna add an extra stop so I can get fuel in one place and go pee in another. When I drive long distances, I stop for nothing except fuel and potty. Food and drink are prepared in advance and available in a small cooler in the car. It's been like that for many years, although it took a while to get my wife on board with it.

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"Corona Virus will come and go, but government will NEVER forget how easy it was to take control of everyone's life; to control every sporting event, classroom, restaurant table, church pew, and even whether you are allowed to leave your house.
Spence
Posts: 3924
Incept: 2009-09-11

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Quote:
Personally, I avoid the hygiene issues by timing things up for right before I am going to take a shower anyway. Much like learning to wake up without an alarm clock, it is amazing what the body can be trained to do!


****, shower, shave and shove off!
Whitehat
Posts: 2686
Incept: 2017-06-27

Gone West
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Have driven very long distances with female companions. Found that they get nervous if one claims that the only time that a stop is made is for food and potty. They are uncomfortable asking for a potty stop exclusively. My cars of the time were very high mileage, and even i needed a break just from driving.

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Keeping the underground economy keeps the peace and allows rebellious elements to protest their condition without actually protesting the government.

What were you doing over the years as your children's future was being destroyed? Do not expect them to fix your mistakes or tolerate you for them.
Searcy17
Posts: 119
Incept: 2011-05-17

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I saw that Trump came out saying masks will help etc. I can't help but think this is a bottom tick capitulation, and this whole thing will be over in about 2 weeks.
Budxr7
Posts: 104
Incept: 2009-07-08

Mass
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He's capitulating but I highly doubt this is anywhere near over. The tooth paste is out of the tube and even if the MSM starts telling people everything is ok, there's no way people are going back to normal. No way.

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Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
-Polonius
Goforbroke
Posts: 8829
Incept: 2007-11-30
A True American Patriot!
The tadpole is gone due to CV-19. I am hunkering down.
Online
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Unless Kristi Noem were to be elected ... I understand that she's hot.

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It is death which gives meaning to life.
Bceaglejoe
Posts: 16
Incept: 2017-08-03

Massachusetts
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A thought question you can ask the True Believers in the Church of Shutdown when it comes to the Sacrament of Masks.

"You can buy sunscreen at varying prices and levels of sun protection. The sunscreen will say right on the bottle 'SPF 30', 'SPF 50', etc. You can purchase and use based on your willingness to pay and your desired level of exposure.

"Airborne viruses have been around forever, and surgical masks have been around for decades. Why don't the mask-makers put ratings on their masks for effectiveness the way the sunscreen makers do? Certainly consumers could gauge their tolerance of risk, as well as their willingness to pay, and purchase accordingly.

"In other words, if the mask is known to work so well to prevent infection, then why don't the mask-makers put that in writing?"

Just as an aside, it's similar to when an auto dealer tells you that aftermarket repair or parts will "void the warranty". Ask for their policy in writing. They won't give it to you, for a very good reason (Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975).
Tonythetiger
Posts: 68
Incept: 2019-01-27

Fort Walton
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Recently published paper which reviewed around 10 RCTs and 10 other large studies on effectiveness of handwashing, masks, etc.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/1.... Gonna be pretty challenging for the CDC to claim ignorance of this study, given that it's posted on their website.

The summary was not very decisive.
Quote:
In this review, we did not find evidence to support a protective effect of personal protective measures or environmental measures in reducing influenza transmission. Although these measures have mechanistic support based on our knowledge of how influenza is transmitted from person to person, randomized trials of hand hygiene and face masks have not demonstrated protection against laboratory-confirmed influenza, with 1 exception (18). We identified only 2 RCTs on environmental cleaning and no RCTs on cough etiquette.

Hand hygiene is a widely used intervention and has been shown to effectively reduce the transmission of gastrointestinal infections and respiratory infections (26). However, in our systematic review, updating the findings of Wong et al. (8), we did not find evidence of a major effect of hand hygiene on laboratory-confirmed influenza virus transmission (Figure 1). Nevertheless, hand hygiene might be included in influenza pandemic plans as part of general hygiene and infection prevention.

We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility (Figure 2). However, as with hand hygiene, face masks might be able to reduce the transmission of other infections and therefore have value in an influenza pandemic when healthcare resources are stretched.


Bottom line is there's not much hard evidence of effectiveness in the way of RCTs. Conversely, there's an abundance of evidence that common masks probably aren't helping much, if at all.

They do raise a point on the possibility of such measures aiding in the reduction of transmitting other infections (primarily bacterial I imagine) which would hypothetically reduce hospital burdens. If so, then such measures should be used all the time, right?

(sarc) Masks forever!!! (/sarc)



Nadavegan
Posts: 264
Incept: 2017-05-03

The South
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"He's capitulating but I highly doubt this is anywhere near over."

My mother in law has locked herself in her basement since this has begun. She said yesterday she hopes a vaccine comes soon so she can go back to normal. My MIL is the Yoda of Karens (although my wife is NOT), and so her sustained panic over 18 weeks reflects the turmoil in the Karen-Force everywhere. You are right, this is nowhere near over, and we have nowhere to go but down.
Whitehat
Posts: 2686
Incept: 2017-06-27

Gone West
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Remember that after the 911 terrorist shocks, everyone thought that things would never be the same. Within a few short months the country returned to normal, areas only slightly removed from the center of the attack started a boom unlike no other in real estate. This actually made it difficult for people concerned about the loss of liberty and privacy to press their points or get any type of protest going. There is a human drive to get back to the closest approximation of normal that is possible. A whole generation, the Sex-in-the-City Generation, traveled the world, moved into gritty areas of major cities including the one attacked, all sorts of businesses opened in a speculative fashion. Yes, those of us here know that it was not a sustainable model based upon anything other than debt and financial bull**** as these young new urbanists would find out in the financial crisis, but it happened.

Lots of businesses are being destroyed by this mess and people's lives changed, but the temptation is there for others to speculate in the ashes. Someone is going to want to take over those closed restaurants and bars as well as service businesses closed permanently. This will lead to massive speculation, government business grants and tax breaks and a whole host of other bull**** to prop up failing areas.

One wonders if gen Z or whatever they call what follows will be as stupid as the previous, well human nature.


Regarding the masks, would it not be the bomb if some consumer product testing and recommendation organization actually tested or published research to guide people to the best masks. That would be something to see.

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Keeping the underground economy keeps the peace and allows rebellious elements to protest their condition without actually protesting the government.

What were you doing over the years as your children's future was being destroyed? Do not expect them to fix your mistakes or tolerate you for them.
Depression2020
Posts: 97
Incept: 2020-03-20

Northern Virginia
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I'm glad to see more conversations on Twatter about daycare centers being open while they want to keep schools closed. In fact daycares were only closed briefly during this whole thing. I recall an interview on CNBC weeks back, when a CEO from one of the large franchised daycare companies discussed reopening after lockdowns ended. The small children wouldn't be required to wear masks, but the adults would. The argument was that mask wearing by small children (booger eaters) would definitely make things worse; hilarious to think that adults would strictly follow protocols as well. I'm a bigger fan of supporting small/independent daycares, but I haven't seen as many interviews given by owners from small businesses.

I guess the daycare workers don't yet have powerful unions like public school teachers. When the Leftists take over, I'm sure that is on the list of things they will change. Also, the essential workers need a place to send their children, because **** them, they and their children can go die to save Karen.

The Leftists platform will be to take the American past time of using government power to steal from others to a whole new level. They're trying to destroy charter schools that want to reopen, and they're attacking people with means for coming up with the solution of creating "pods" with their own privately contracted teachers. There's even talk of attacking the right to homeschool children in some parts of the country, or to layer so much regulation on the process that it becomes unfeasible. You have so-called "white flight" where people with means flee urban areas (really anyone who can and not just white people). Similarly, I think that conservative families will just flee the public school garbage - whether poorly run, indoctrination centers, or all the above.

Before CV-19 my conservative colleagues (the minority here in Liberal Northern Virginia) were increasingly "homeschoolers"; after CV-19 the trend has only increased - as there no longer is in-person education here. There biggest complaint about the whole thing, is that they still have to contribute large amounts of tax money to fund the Leftist public schools. Conservative politicians have taken steps in some areas and during some periods to create "voucher" systems where parents can use the funds to go to a school of their choice, but Leftist Progressives work endlessly to attack and destroy these policies and in Liberal strongholds you often don't have the choice. For now, you still have the right to homeschool children, but they still force you at gunpoint to pay taxes for the public schools.
Depression2020
Posts: 97
Incept: 2020-03-20

Northern Virginia
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Today, I see @Tickerguy posting a lot about testing on the front lines of the information war. Birx gave a decent interview on Fox yesterday where she commented on the slow speed of test results in the hot spots in southern and western US. She suggested the government was working to reallocate resources, "stacking" tests from areas where outbreaks have diminished and using excess capacity to accommodate tests delivered from the hot spots. So the shipping time would add a day to testing, but notionally the lab work would then be done in a day from these underutilized labs. We'll see if they can make it happen fast enough to be of any consequence, since the fires are already declining in many of the hot spots. I guess there's always next time.

Possible Future Actions to Take in CV-19 Information War

Separately in the Birx interview, the subject of vaccines and immunity came up. She mentioned her bona fides related to study of immunology and brought up t-cell immunity in addition to antibodies. Too bad she didn't raise or nor did Brett B ask about cross immunity in the population. Another thing about the Birx interview, is that CNN also played the footage from Fox in large chunks (pretty much entirely), demonstrating that her word carries a lot of weight/credibility among the talking heads. So, love them or hate them, if you can get Birx or Fauci to talk about key subjects like cross immunity and fecal-oral transmission it could gain more traction in left wing narratives. It's one thing to provide evidence and facts with metaphorical bullhorns about why the policy responses are wrong and why the hysteria is overblown, but we need these facts to catch hold via key transmission vectors to the left. Sanjay Gupta at CNN often takes questions from the public via Twatter, e-mail, and video town halls - perhaps Karl and and like minded people can raise and re-raise key questions and facts through via Sanjay as well. I suspect that it will take more than one try, and he's likely to use the "we don't know for sure" response often - possibly the only correct response. But given multiple attempts, the key data, observations, and studies could be read on air and possibly seep into the heads of the "other half" of the divided America.
Wayiwalk
Posts: 19
Incept: 2016-11-09

New Yersey
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My apologies in advance if I post something that only repeats what was said pages earlier....I only skimmed the last four or five.

Covid-19 is working perfectly for the left right now. It makes it easy to test the waters of how far the gov't can go....and as we can see, it is a cakewalk for them to do whatever they want....probably delights them to see the pols on the right following their lead too....

As a friend recently shared, "if it isn't clear, the LEFT MEANS BUSINESS at this point....". Yep. They are idiots, but they are serious about what they will do once they win in November (not a foregone conclusion at this point, but pretty close to it).

Do they mean business to do what they want? Aren't they already doing it?

St. Louis gun couple defending their private property? "We'll take those weapons and charge you with a crime, thank you very much."

Portland? Mayor joins the protesters and gets tear gassed while telling the feds to GET OUT....meanwhile, parts of the city are simply dangerous due to lack of law and order.

Chicago? What's a few more deaths in the **itty part of town, seems to be the Mayor's mantra. It's disgusting what is happening there.

Seattle? Whoa, wait a minute, CHOP or whatever they called themselves was great, right up until the moment that rioters appeared at the front door of the mayor, then it was time to deal with it. smiley

Perfectly to the tune of the former monarchs of previous centuries. Use the people as pawns to gain power, "Let them eat the rich, right up until the point they notice the rich is "me" "....then, "release the hounds."

On and on.

The northeast states will raise income taxes big time, and they'll probably still crash. It looks inevitable. Take take take.

That is what the left intends, take money, take rights, take freedoms. Complete the transformation of America.

Like I posted a month or so ago. The coupe already happened - basically, I've been using that perspective to inform my planning and steps - although, as Karl has noted, most of us are not in the 10% that will survive this thing over the longer haul (ie, 4 or more years out and if the **** hits the fan really hard), no matter our preparations.

Since the soft coupe of the Russians are coming!!! failed, well, BLM is the hard in your face coupe. The winners don't have to raise a new flag to demonstrate they've won. They just have to exert full control, which we've seen in NY (gun rights, enforcement of criminal acts by politicians and dereliction of gov't responsibility)...same in NJ (add, improper use of tax funds - meaning - tax revenue collected was not invested in state pension programs, which I don't benefit from but only contribute to, so no tears from me). Does the list end?

For a long time, my mantra has been, I'm an independent, that allows me to say F*** You to both parties, and to folks from either party so I can make an argument so people would even try to listen.

Does it even matter at this point?

There was a nice article shared on Zerosludge today, about "How we Got here", and points to the education system of the last 100 years getting us away from critical thinking and core moral values as an expected minimum outcome of education, and more towards feeling good about ourselves and using our feelings to guide choices, and how that lead to collective thinking which is starting to emerge in the public sphere as an entity. That is an over-oversimplification, but it was a decent read, and helps explain the persistent growth of idiocy in this country along with a willingness to remove individual rights. Just like a handful of years ago when our media started aligning Republicans=Racists/Fascists as a "truth" in their minds and something not to be ashamed to speak of/propaganda-size, I expect that we'll be hearing about the collective good endlessly, particularly with a democratic sweep in November. The ZH article did much to make me realize how this just isn't reversible until there is a very big painful conflict to either destroy or set things right. Sadly, I think destroy is the more likely outcome ahead. Again, quoting Karl - you can't "print" food/essentials....

smiley
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