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Greenrebellion
Posts: 650
Incept: 2009-01-03

Michigan
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Plenty of reading material in here with links to the studies. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

Face Masks Considerably Reduce COVID-19 Cases in Germany: A Synthetic Control Method Approach
http://ftp.iza.org/dp13319.pdf


Is any of this even close to an RCT? DEFINITELY NOT. But you may be able to ignore 1, 2 or 3 of these as flawed, but all of them flawed?? I can't find many (if any) recent study that goes the other way...and if the RCT's were reliable for COVID, I should be able to find something done in the last 3 months that strongly suggests masks are worthless.
Little_eddie
Posts: 1666
Incept: 2009-04-30

Delaware
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Greenrebellion, YES

If I remember right there are only about 5 corporations that control 95% of all news outlets, so it's not that hard.

The real question is what's the 'truth' that they are trying to hide? but that's a subject for tin right now.

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It's Collapse, get use to it.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. - George Carlin
Frat
Posts: 2576
Incept: 2009-07-15

NKY
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I made a comment to Karl the other day about my wife (ER nurse) and her team not liking the theory of it largely being fecal-oral in transmission. His reply was "Of course they don't!" to which I replied, "Yeah, because it means THEY'RE one of the primary vectors."

Like it or not, remember those studies of sewer systems and how much was found there? Gee, those things got hidden really quickly, eh?

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We're ****ed. Where's Henry Bowman when you need him?
Tickerguy
Posts: 165527
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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@Greenrebellion - The counterfactual is South Korea which basically stopped nosocomial transmission of Covid.

They found masks (which they were already using, of course) did nothing.

What did? Assiduously adhering to hand-washing with soap and water. Not sanitizer, actual washing before and after any contact with person or potentially contaminated surfaces.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Whitehat
Posts: 2590
Incept: 2017-06-27

Gone West
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Was at my local ghetto supply store about two weeks ago. This sign was posted outside. Please note that the training to certify these aids is the most shoddy ****-show one has ever seen. The often do the training in a stadium in a short morning or afternoon session. There is a very low standard. I can also tell you for a fact that people who are not certified apply for these jobs are are "hired" for cash jobs or where the agency launders the money through one certification and then pays cash to the worker. This ad is code for such positions.

NOTE: one does not have to be a legal resident to become certified.

This whole certified HHA program is just another Medicaid fraud scheme. NYC specializes in Medicaid fraud.

 

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Keeping the underground economy keeps the peace and allows rebellious elements to protest their condition without actually protesting the government.

What were you doing over the years as your children's future was being destroyed? Do not expect them to fix your mistakes or tolerate you for them.
Tickerguy
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Note that the lack of any evidence of transmission efficiency of Covid-19 tied to absolute humidity is proof that a major component of transmission of this virus, in fact the majority, is manual and not aerosol.

For a very long time we have tried to figure out why respiratory virus "R" values have a crazy range -- from under 1 to 4+ -- depending on the time of year. There have been a lot of theories but unfortunately an RCT is impossible unless you have a "moon bubble" you can stick people in and then deliberately introduce someone with said virus, which nobody would approve.

The theories ran the gamut, from "people spend more time outside" to various modalities of UV and such. But then, about 10 years ago, there was a study done with actual aerosol particles that had their RNA known in climate lab controlled conditions, and they found the answer.

Specifically, absolute humidity was found to exactly correlate, and the reason is sedimentation; that is, an aerosol is much more-likely to condense with another aerosol and reach the critical size where it drops out of the fluid phase of the air and falls to the ground.

The people who did the study also theorized that inactivation is linked to absolute humidity, but they didn't have a biological explanation for that. I therefore discount it -- but it doesn't matter which is the case or in what blend.

However, Covid-19 has shown NEARLY ZERO measurable change in R value with differences in absolute humidity. Further, that same change in flu is maintained even in today's indoor environments .vs. those of 100 years ago, and the reason is that while we now have AC and didn't before, AC units intentionally condense a huge amount of aerosol out of the air and dispose of it down the condensate drain. As such they have the same exact effect as does the natural process outside in the summer months and, of course, said A/C unit is turned OFF in the winter.

It is thus not credible that the primary spread mechanism is aerosol; were that to be the case then the rate of transmission of Covid-19 would drop precipitously in the summer, and come raging back in the fall. This virus does not do that.

It therefore is not spread that way most of the time.

What does that leave and does that remaining possibility respond STRONGLY to assiduous washing of one's hands with soap and water? Why yes, it does indeed, as was demonstrated in South Korea.

What is that transmission mechanism?

****-eating.

Period.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Precision37
Posts: 67
Incept: 2014-02-27

NH
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Karl, saw this this morning. Others are speaking out now too.
https://granitegrok.com/blog/2020/06/mor....
Pharmadude
Posts: 152
Incept: 2020-03-26

NC
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The "cure" is very likely to be worse than the virus. TPTB (Trump included) will rush the "cure" and force it upon the sheeple just into time for 11.3. The sheeple will be so happy, but in mid Oct the "cure" will begin to spike the # cases & deaths.

TPTB want the sheeple in the pens by either a virus or riots, even starting a civil war if need be. Like the first US civil war the next one will be centered around slavery, either you want to live free or be enslaved under TPTB oligarchy disguised as a "social democracy".

It was in the churches and taverns where the first Patriots organized the US Revolution, how convenient that these places of gathering are closed. The internet has places to "gather" - for now, but troll-free places like the Market-Ticker Forum are rare.

The Revolution will NOT be televised, nor will it be live streamed.

TV "news" is a time restricted show, scripted and highly censored. YT and FB are censored as well. The large media platforms are owned (stocks and investments) and controlled (ad revenues) by TPTB - follow the money.

TPTB have control of the mass media and mobs, but not of the individual. The individual still has free will until the very end of life. The choice is yours - revolt as free individuals or as slaves with "chains" (physical and speech/thought restrictions).

I wear the chain I forged in life. I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it." - the ghost of Jacob Marley, "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens

Tickerguy
Posts: 165527
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Yep....

The bitch @Precision37 is that these RCTs are settled science and many of them are more than a decade old. RCTs take time to set up and run, and money too. They're the gold standard for a reason, but the reason comes with both time and cost constraints.

If you have an RCT that says something is true and you wish to argue against it you have to either invalidate it through analysis of the methodology and practice in the study itself (which leaves you with a null hypothesis, not the converse) or you must so-identify same, remove said confounders and run another one without them.

There are ZERO RCTs showing that viral aerosols can be attenuated to any degree of materiality with masks. Further, the physics say they shouldn't work.

Physics says they SHOULD work for bacteria, and in fact RCTs say they do -- for bacteria. Why? Size -- bacteria are ridiculously larger.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Invisiblesun
Posts: 71
Incept: 2020-04-08

Maryland
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On masks there is an argument to be made that for specific applications and time periods masks can reduce (not eliminate) infection spread. However, these applications are not common in general society. In other words, those situations where a mask could be beneficial are few and far between.

And the "experts" know this. They know masks are symbolic.

Consider that in Maryland, we must wear a mask in the restaurant lobby but not at the restaurant table. Oh, they space the tables but who is kidding whom? If the virus was that deadly and masks were that effective, we would not have any restaurants open!

Once one takes into account all the negative factors of masks a policy of mask wearing makes no sense for the general public. What matters for minimizing infection spread is avoiding close, crowded contact and keeping hands clean.

Funny thing about hands - if surface contamination was not a factor why the push for hand washing? And how does one keep hands clean if one is touching a used mask?

We are so fortunate Covid is not a risk for much of the population. These confounding health policies are not helping.
Tonythetiger
Posts: 48
Incept: 2019-01-27

Fort Walton
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I just came across this privately maintained Covid summary website for Florida:

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience....

This site is maintained by a former State employee who was fired for refusing to manipulate data on the official Florida Dashboard (so says an NPR article about the matter).

I'm still looking through the content, but it does break a lot of the information down and provide more explanations about what, where, and how the data is generated, sometimes with links to the data sources.


Tickerguy
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My real concern is that EVENTUALLY we will get a REAL NASTY virus. Not Covid-19, something really ugly.

Lying about THAT one won't kill 100,000 people - it will kill 100 million. And if we do not stop this **** exactly why would they not lie the NEXT time?

Remember that we were told that A THIRD of all US Citizens would be killed by HIV. A THIRD. Fortunately that was bull****, but eventually we'll get a virus where it ISN'T bull****.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Asimov
Posts: 117395
Incept: 2007-08-26

East Tennessee
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Quote:
Oh, they space the tables but who is kidding whom?


The 15 year old girl's school project that became social distancing says 6'. No studies have ever been done to confirm this.

The only studies I'm aware of say that cough or sneeze particles can travel 26 feet in still air.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.

Festina lente.
Asimov
Posts: 117395
Incept: 2007-08-26

East Tennessee
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Karl: That's me too. Scared of the possibility. Also really happy where I am right now due to the way masks and stuff is being treated by the population, but if this really was nasty... Not so sure the response would be any different.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.

Festina lente.

Pharmadude
Posts: 152
Incept: 2020-03-26

NC
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Here's a useful resource on size differences of bacteria and viruses...

https://www.biointeractive.org/classroom....

Bacteria (football) relative to virus (AA battery).

Why do think virologists where full hazmat suits and not paper/cloth masks?

Just thinking!
Greenrebellion
Posts: 650
Incept: 2009-01-03

Michigan
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Karl, there is a major error on all your arguments related to masks. I'll try to be concise with my explanation (don't take the following as argumentative, I'm currently 50/50 on masks but I do think you have a flaw in your argument even if your position is ultimately correct).

The South Korea counterfactual you provided as well as the numerous RCT's from the past you cite (I've read a couple of them) all focus on the WEARER of the masks not obtaining a benefit. Which is not controversial at all, the WHO, CDC and everyone else agree with this. Mask wearing, as the theory goes, protects others ESPECIALLY when social distancing is difficult.

And yes, while the masks the public wears are porous in both directions...what other benefits might they provide in only the expelled direction?

The fact is numerous population studies over the last 2-3 months DO show correlation with masks. Here's one theory from a link I previously provided "Masks may be more effective as a 'source control' because they can prevent larger expelled droplets from evaporating into smaller droplets that can travel farther."

Is correlation / causation, no. Have I proved anything, no. But the RCT's and South Korea examples you cite really don't address the issue of mask wearing benefiting others by reducing droplet travel distance or spread.
Tonythetiger
Posts: 48
Incept: 2019-01-27

Fort Walton
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Interesting factoid regarding Covid-19 testing:

I looked at details for one of the locally available testing options, Quest Diagnostics. Here are the 'rules' in play for being tested:

1) Must have a physician referral.
2) Said referral can be provided via consultation with Quest physician, AFTER ordering and paying for test online.
3) After referral is obtained, an appointment is made at a Quest location local to the purchaser (apparently their referral service scam is nation-wide)

Then comes the coup-de-grace:
Quote:
For the safety of our patients and employees, individuals must not have experienced symptoms of COVID-19 for at least 10 days; wear a face mask; and pass a contact-less temperature check.

Got that? Only folks who aren't showing signs of actually being sick are allowed to get tested. I wonder what the odds of getting a refund of the cost of the test are for someone who fails the temperature check?

Also this little disclaimer is found in the fine print:
Quote:
Test type: Antibody Test
Antibody tests are not FDA approved for diagnosis of COVID-19.

So ... of what value is the test then, other than as an exercise in generating profits for Quest Diagnostics?

Sort of makes you wonder what criteria might be used as 'proof' of immunity should rumours of the eventual implementation of Immunity Cards prove true. If a positive antibody test is insufficient proof of having some sort of immunity, then exactly what IS sufficient proof? (I'm guessing a recent vaccine is probably pretty close to the mark.)


Tickerguy
Posts: 165527
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Yep @Pharmadude.

Here's another one. About 10 years ago I owned a LARGE boat. Hatteras makes very good boats, but like all manufacturers they sometimes **** up. Mine had a ****up in the way the anchor pulpit was mounted.

The deck on modern "fiberglass" boats is actually a sandwich. Two skins of fiberglass with a core in the middle. Why? Because it's a HELL of a lot stronger than the two skins alone, and SOLID fiberglass of that depth would be ridiculously heavy, probably enough-so to **** up the stability of the vessel!

This is a good design EXCEPT that anywhere you drill into that you had better seal it, and the seal better be good too, because if water gets in there, because water does not compress, over time it will "jackhammer" away the core and skin bond. Worse, if the core is organic (e.g. balsa, as it often is and was in this case) it is then subject to both rot and insect infestation (yes, boats can get termites!)

The CORRECT way to deal with drilling through a cored structure is that you drill well-oversize (by about 1/4" or more all the way around), fill the hole with epoxy that has fiberglass filler mixed into it which will bond very well with both the fiberglass and the coring material, wait for that to set and then drill the correct size hole through the impervious epoxy/fiberglass piece you created. That will NEVER leak and it's as strong if not stronger than the sandwich itself. That plus a backing plate to spread the load (no, fender washers are NOT enough for high-load areas like this) and you're good.

Hatteras just drilled the holes and mounted the thing, albeit with a proper backing plate and, over 25 years, well..... yeah.

So the fix is to rip out the pulpit then either cut the top section or bottom section of the deck off off with a depth-controlled sawing device (e.g. circular saw, dremel, etc), remove the bad core, replace it using epoxy since polyester will not bond to set polyester, replace the skin that you were careful enough to remove in one piece, fair the joint and then drill the holes the right way. Doing it from the top is "easier" but getting a good and faired match on the edges is HARD and if you're not someone who does this all the time and have developed the skill the risk of it looking like complete **** when you're done is very, very high. You pay the dude with the skill and you're looking at a bill of 10 large or more for a repair that has about $250 worth of material in it between epoxy, tools and a sheet of 9-ply marine plywood for replacement coring.

So I did it myself from the bottom. In the anchor locker. Where I didn't give a rat's ass what it looked like when I was done and I could lay a couple of sheets of heavy glass roving over the area as well for extra strength.

Well...... that means laying on your back, in a confined space, working with epoxy overhead. And while the resin isn't so bad the hardener is an amine and is notorious for sensitizing you -- which means ANY subsequent exposure, EVER, causes an immediate allergic histamine reaction. If you get sensitized in your lungs that subsequent exposure can kill you in minutes. Almost as bad if your conjunctiva gets sensitized you could really be ****ed by future exposure vision-wise. Then of course there's the 900lb Gorilla, which is that the sensitization is not localized, and then you're just plain ****ed all over. If it happens to you then you can never get within feet of uncured epoxy or the components of same -- ever again.

No thank you.

So I wore a tyvec "moon suit", an old dive mask (100% seal around the eyes and nose; zero exchange with the air in the compartment) and stuck a dive tank with a 50' hose on the back deck from which my breathing air supply came. Which was completely effective, of course. And a five-alarm pain in the ass.

Now could I have used an N95 or even cannister respirator? Sure. But would it have gotten ALL of the aerosol? Maybe. But if not the second or third day in that hole, and the job took a week, might have killed me.

I'm not an idiot and I understand the physics. Virons are in the <2.5um particulate category, which anything less than an N95 does NOTHING against, and even an N95 doesn't get more than about half of them. At the same time that sort of mask does worse in that large droplets, which can be FULL of virus, are totally harmless to others UNLESS you sneeze or cough directly on them because they fall straight to the ground within INCHES of your mouth or nose. However, with a mask they're trapped and concentrated, so now you've CREATED a biohazard by concentrating particles that would otherwise be entirely harmless to anyone.

That's ****ing STUPID.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Tickerguy
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@Greenrebellion -- The ONLY potential benefit to a mask is if you cough or sneeze directly, which expels large droplets.

Those only travel inches, however, before falling to the ground. We're all taught to cover coughs and sneezes. If you instead rely on a mask a good part of it will bypass anyway since the flow rate exceeds the filtration capacity rate.

The real risk for transmission by aerosol is the <2.5um particles which ARE NOT BLOCKED IN EITHER DIRECTION. That is why the RCTs show no benefit. Further, you WANT the large drops to fall out to the ground, because concentrating them on the mask means you can now infect people with them by manual transmission (e.g. your hands) where if they're on the ground they harm nobody.

Again in South Korea they found that even if a clinician had no mask on at all they did NOT get infected if handwashing procedures were followed, with the SOLE EXCEPTION of a known-positive who was coughing.

These were people who had entirely unprotected airways and thus exposed to <2.5um aerosol in both directions and yet no statistically-significant transmission occurred as soon as they got rid of the manual transmission route.

Did they keep using masks? Of course. Why? Because Covid isn't the only deal in a hospital, of course. BACTERIA are much larger and thus quite-effectively trapped as they are much larger than the pore size, and in a hospital ALL infection matters.

I'm sure you CAN transmit this virus through expelled drops, especially in a cough or sneeze. But in the vast majority of cases that simply isn't how it's being transmitted. We KNOW this because if it was transmitted by aerosol as the weather got warmer and absolute humidity rose it would RADICALLY inhibit transmission. That hasn't happened and thus we KNOW that's not how it's being transmitted.

Like so much in politics today focusing on 5% of a problem, which we have DOCUMENTED is the case here, while ignoring the 95% does exactly nothing except making people rich. That's one thing when it's just money that's involved BUT IN THIS CASE WE'RE KILLING PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
M1919a2
Posts: 702
Incept: 2015-07-18

Washington
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Just a very restrictive observation

The comments in this Ticker AFTER Karl's page 3 expose' have in my (truly) humble opinion moved from the REAR VIEW MIRROR approach to looking thru the WINDSHIELD approach to HAZARD identification and thus avoidance/disabling of those HAZARDS in the DISTANCE!

A welcome change in my humble opinion.

Just saying.
Depression2020
Posts: 86
Incept: 2020-03-20

Northern Virginia
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Kudos to @Tickerguy for letting @Orangemanbadeh post. smiley I'm glad to see you pushed back hard but didn't ban him (yet). It's generally better (within reason) to have a lively debate than an echo chamber.

As I've mentioned before, credibility is very important in this business. One of my concerns is that tinfoil conspiracies are often co-mingled with good and well sourced analysis and commentary on this blog. The left notoriously uses this type of content to discredit all opposition to their narrative. They've tried hard to carefully control the words that come of Senile Joe's mouth, so it doesn't provide more sound bytes and content to discredit their side. I think that left to his own devices, with the handlers not their to filter him, he would pump out a lot more false statements like we're used to hearing from the Orangeman.

It will be hilarious when a formal CDC study is released in 2-3 months on cross-immunity among the population, and this dominates the news cycle. The "slow people" will be catching up again. We should consider how the media will spin this to their hysterical narrative - probably by not fully exploring/explaining the implications. This was their reaction to revelations of the significantly lower fatality rate and the huge number of undetected infections when they finally caught up.

The liberal media often repeats the estimate from U of Wash that 33,000 additional deaths COULD be prevented by October with widespread mask use. They fail to do critical thinking and analysis that this estimate is caveated (COULD), has many assumptions (e.g. people will use masks correctly), and fails to note the significance they put a date on it. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati....

New forecast: 180,000 U.S. deaths of COVID-19 by October. But mask order can save 33,000

Worded more honestly the headline could read - We Don't Really Know How Many Deaths by COVID-19 Will Occur by October, But We Think Mask Orders Will Slightly Slow the Spread and Some Deaths Will be Delayed to a Later Date

In coming weeks, I hope to see Fox counter the liberal hysteria with the chart of daily CV-19 deaths, and how they have been trending down and generally plateaued since reopening has increased. For every time CNN runs segment on record high infection counts, Fox should present the same, along with the recorded deaths.

inline
Tickerguy
Posts: 165527
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Anyone running the "mask-mask-mask" bull**** at this point, where for ~$10 billion (~32 million businesses, figure $300 each) we could put a heated handwashing station out each with SOAP AND WATER, requiring only a garden hose to fill it daily and drained into the gutter at the end of the day, which would ACTUALLY cut transmission (maybe a HELL of a lot) needs to be stung up by their genitals and eaten by fire ants.

This bull**** HAS TO BE STOPPED. It's killing people. We knew this was the truth in FEBRUARY since we KNEW this virus did not respond to known attenuation from total humidity.

Therefore it's manual spread, NOT RESPIRATORY AEROSOL.

Period.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me

Invisiblesun
Posts: 71
Incept: 2020-04-08

Maryland
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Karl, medical researchers have reported detecting the virus in sewage. Yet they are clearly reluctant to publicize that the virus in contaminated feces can infect others, despite this logical conclusion. This "all-in" on aerosol transmission demands greater evidence. For not only do we have the insanity of masks but we are going to see billions of dollars spent on overhauling HVAC systems to curtail Covid.

In terms of questions health scientists must get right, the answer of transmission vectors is one of the most important.
Invisiblesun
Posts: 71
Incept: 2020-04-08

Maryland
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Found this research reported by WebMD. It, along with the referenced Chinese research, would seem to be definitive.

Wash your hands!
----------------

May 27, 2020 -- A new study has shown that COVID-19 virus isolated from the stool of a sick patient can infect cells in a petri dish.

The research is a step toward proving a new route of transmission for the infection. If confirmed by future studies, it would mean that people could get sick by ingesting tiny amounts of stool from others who are infected -- called the fecal-oral route of transmission. Other diarrhea diseases that pass from person to person this way include cholera and hepatitis.

It also raises the question of whether infectious virus can be blown into the air -- or aerosolized -- by a flushing toilet

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200527....
Tickerguy
Posts: 165527
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smiley

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
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