Quick Hit: Stupidity On Line 5
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2020-06-25 15:57 by Karl Denninger
in Stupidity , 184 references Ignore this thread
Quick Hit: Stupidity On Line 5
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For those who are unaware the Line 5 controversy has been raging in Northern Michigan for years.

I've seen the signs in the yards, the oped bull****, the T-shirts, the bumper stickers, all of it.

Line 5, for the unknowing, is a pipeline.  It goes across the Straits of Mackinaw.  Enbridge, an energy company, runs it.  It was built in 1953 and is 30" in diameter.  It splits into two pipelines to cross the Straits for both structural and redundancy reasons.  A large part of what it carries originates and terminates in Canada.

But not all.

There have been all manner of screams about it being a "monstrous" pollution risk.

The real reason people want it gone?  Climate change -- because it's full of and transports carbon-based fuel.  That's the beginning and end of it.

The line does, indeed, transport some crude.  But a lot of what it transports are what are called "natural gas liquids", otherwise known as propane (mostly.)  The others you'd recognize too, for the most part -- butane (in your lighter), isobutane (in your camp stove bottle), etc.

Your lighter is full of liquid only because its under pressure.  Ditto for propane and isobutane.  Thus, "natural gas liquids."  Natural gas itself is nearly all methane, and it has to be super-cooled to turn into liquid form.

The important point here, however, is that shutting down Line 5 screws a huge part of Northern Lower Michigan and the UP.  65% of the UP's and about half of Michigan's total propane demand is filled by that pipeline.  Damn near all homes that are away from cities and other places where piped gas service exists are utterly reliant on that supply in the winter for both cooking fuel and heat.  We're talking about hundreds of thousands of residents that will get ****ed blind.

Needless to say, if you have even a passing knowledge of where Michigan is, especially the UP, you know that without heat in the winter you're completely screwed.  huge number of residences are reliant on that supply.

So go ahead, screamers.  I've seen plenty of the signs -- in front of a house with a propane tank on the side of it.

You have to be a special brand of stupid to support anything that interrupts that flow.

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Mannfm11
Posts: 6216
Incept: 2009-02-28

DFW, Tx
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They are talking about stupid winning in November. They could shut it all off.

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Kfell
Posts: 149
Incept: 2014-09-09

New Hampshire
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Yup, we have it up here in NH called Northern Pass. Being in the northeast, we have been force fed about climate change and the need to reduce greenhouse gases all the while enjoying expensive electricity rates. So this Canadian company wants to send electric power from a hydro dam in Canada down thru some pristine wilderness (Right thru the Old Man of the Mountain's backyard) to supply Mass and CT with power. The power lines will be 100 feet tall and of course this company wants to use government force to impose this brilliant idea. I am somewhat sympathetic to both sides in that we need more supply but not thru government force and incompetence.

The same tree huggers that prevented Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant from building two towers in the 80's, they shut down plans for a natural gas pipeline to supply southern New England with power and here in Bow NH, protestors are constantly protesting the coal plant after forcing the plant to spend $100's of millions to install scrubbers in their smoke stacks. These asshats live in mcmansions and drive their SUVs and swim in their damn pools and if you point this out to them, they call you a science denier who has white privilege. f em.
Depression2020
Posts: 86
Incept: 2020-03-20

Northern Virginia
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Kidding around with friends earlier this year, I commented that with the beating that pipeline companies have been taking in the market they would start giving you a free pipeline for every fill-up. ****ing ESG investing! That, neophyte momo millenial traders helps fuel BS like Tesla. When you add in passive index fund investing, it's fuel for the megacap tech companies to monopolize more and more sectors they enter into since they have an infinite supply of money. At least there is some talk of an anti-trust investigation into Google. I'm skeptical it will amount to much, and when Senile Joe is elected it likely will be discontinued.
Jeepguy
Posts: 221
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Ohio
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Gimme fuel, gimme fire
Gimme that which I desire
Ooh
Yeah

As I fire up the stove and or grill to cook a wonderful slab of cow/bovine flesh!
Veggie dorks and enviro-mentalcases can **** off about their anti Pipeline crap!

Perhaps one day we'll hang these commietards with all natural organic hemp rope!!

Jays
Posts: 14
Incept: 2016-10-25

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The planned replacement for the Straits of Mackinaw section of Line 5 is to be housed in a concrete lined tunnel to be bored under the lake. If the "new" pipeline would leak it would be contained in the concrete tunnel. If the present pipeline, built in 1953, leaks the petroleum products would pollute the lake. There are no financially viable alternatives to petroleum. Delay of this project is just foolish.

https://www.enbridge.com/line5tunnelhome


I own a summer home in Wisconsin about 25 miles south of the Upper Michigan border. Many of the homes in the area still use propane. That said, in the last 25 years most small towns and more recently many of the lake home lots have natural gas service available. We converted to natural gas about 12 years ago.
Tickerguy
Posts: 165528
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@Jays -- that's fine if there's service. If you have some reasonable amount of density then it works. But up in the UP and in big parts of the upper LP, well..... no.

Glen Arbor got piped gas not all that long ago. The reason to convert, IF you can get it, is MONEY. Piped gas is a LOT cheaper. Even if you have to pay for a new unit (not just a re-jetting) it pay for itself -- and quite quickly too.

But if not, well, then what? Never mind that if you're on electric, and in the back country that means overhead lines, and there's a serious winter storm, you might be off for a week or more. With propane (or natural gas) a small generator is enough to run the fan, and you're ok. If you're on resistance heating YOU ARE ****ED.

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me

Jw.
Posts: 59
Incept: 2019-10-10

Leaving CA
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Wouldn't be the first time stupid took out stupid.

A friend's in-laws bought a property in Albany, CA. Three story house, recently remodeled with the third story, turns out it was a bit of a controversy in the neighborhood prior to their purchase of the property. Get this, after the previous owner added the top floor the neighbors banded together in solidarity (retards unite!) and changed the Zoning codes to prohibit third stories for future developments. This effectively added a half million or more to the purchase price as it is and will always be the tallest structure in that zone/neighborhood.

Takes a special kind of stupid to **** yourself like that financially thinking you got back at the guy who got rich. These special retards are the majority in California, whom else would send their trash to China to be burned and claim to be green in the same breath.


Mika813
Posts: 9
Incept: 2020-05-04

VA
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Karl, its like you're channeling my late older brother I LOVE hearing logic instead of emotions!!!!!

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"One man gathers what another man spills..."
The Grateful Dead "St.Stephen"

I weep for what was the idea of my country.-Me

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Jeepguy
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Ohio
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@Tickerguy

Well my experience of living out in the sticks where natural gas service doesn't happen, is that you buy a big ass tank of propane...

Or you get a couple of bottles for your stove because you're going to heat with wood and or coal and or both!

Yeah folks that really grew up in the countryside, know all about wood stoves and how it's handy if you have one that also Burns coal! To hell with gas!

I had a neighbor who heated with nothing but wood! No gas what so ever!!

But of course today you've whinny asses whom claim to be allergic do everything under the sun... Including wood stoves yes that's right I had a girlfriend who bitched about wood stoves!!

Basically I informed her it was all in her head!!

none of course you have retarded so-called communities that they don't allow wood stoves blah blah blah via woodsmoke!

so yes I get it propane is still totally needed, I get it that natural gas is still totally needed however, for the areas out in the boonies chances are those lines don't actually go there they're more than likely on bottled gas as in propane in a container and they pay someone to come around every so often and change it out!!
Tickerguy
Posts: 165528
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Well, most of the houses up there have large, fixed tanks. Nobody's changing that out; they show up with a truck and fill it.

I do love driving up in the sticks in the winter though and smelling the wood-burning. I LIKE how it smells.... of course that makes the Greenies even MORE angry, so....

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
Oliver1655
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Lets see them put their money where their mouths are.

Beginning with shutting off the pipeline that starts at the exterior wall of their houses.
Inline
Jeepguy
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Ohio
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@tickerguy
Lol yes it does make the Greenies angry I love it!!

The tanks I was talking about changing out, was the slim bottles people use for stoves!!
.that's what my family used to do, we got rid of the big tank because they started this tank rental fee ****, if you didn't use enough gas!!

We cut down on our gas consumption when we put a wood coal burning stove in! We quit using the furnace all together...

So we just had a couple bottles of propane for the cook stove!
Onelegged
Posts: 556
Incept: 2009-11-13

NW Colorado
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My family's been in one town in the northern U.P. for 6 generations.

We've all got propane, but we've got even more firewood. Pipeline shmipeline.

We have the highest KWH prices in the nation too. 100% hydro.

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The light at the end of this tunnel is a train. It's gathering speed. It's also delivering your special box car. Showers are on the right...
Oliver1655
Posts: 268
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Buy your own propane tank preferably 1000 gallon or bigger. Never be held hostage by these crooked propane retailers again. Your tank you can shop anywhere you like and buy during the summer for major discounts on larger amounts.

Being held hostage for tank rentals and being told you can only buy from them is a crock of **** extortion game they like to play. Then they want you to sign up for autofill so they can price gouge you whenever they want. It's convenient for them to fill at higher prices vs you price shopping on your own and determining the best fill time.

Plenty of horror stories of folks on auto fill running out of propane in the worst of weather during propane shortages. Bigger tank with enough capacity to heat all winter is a sound way to prevent price gouging.

If you buy your own tank just make damn sure it has a intact data plate. Most places won't touch or fill a tank without a intact/readable data plate.
M1919a2
Posts: 702
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Washington
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You know, talked with a BPA (Bonneville Power Administration) engineer (30 odd years ago) on another matter, but got around to discussing the 'gird' and asked him above those huge transformers in the fenced (chain link) off substations. What do you know, each one is oil cooled and individually designed and constructed for that substation. That's neat I say and ask what if it goes down, where do they stockpile the replacement? They DON'T, they need to fabricate it from the the ground up and it takes 18-24 months from THEN to replace it!

Just saying!
Tsherry
Posts: 3207
Incept: 2008-12-09

Spokane WA
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Liberal logic: "Good depopulation plan, and ecologically sound. After half of MI freezes to death, Nature will take it back, and the animals in the area will feast on the remains come Spring, 2021."

People really are ****ing idiots.

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Omne mendacium est.
Jeepguy
Posts: 221
Incept: 2020-02-07

Ohio
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@Oliver1655
Good idea, if you can then find a propane company that will fill your tank!!

I know in my area it's hard to do!
I'm in central Ohio!
Karlinmichigan
Posts: 27
Incept: 2020-04-04

Karlin, Michigan
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Yes, the residential streets of Traverse City are littered with the 'Shutdown Line 5' signs. Traverse City used to be a quiet conservative community, but it is being transformed by downstate and Chicago transplants to a leftist, woke community. Unintended consequences of shutting down the pipeline? 'I don't know concept what means these unintended consequences you speak of.'

I live on an inland lake in a more conservative area not too far away. But, the same turnover of older residents dying off and being replaced by downstate and Chicago suburbanites is taking place here. The 'Line 5' signs, the 'Hate Has No Home Here' signs, the multicolored 'BLM -- No Human is Illegal, etc.' signs are a pollution I endure more and more every day.
But worse, apropos the 'greenism' of 'Line 5' opponents, I have noticed that the transplants from the downstate and Chicago suburbs have a peculiar cultural habit. They buy a lakefront home here that has been in tune with the lake environment for generations. They then clear cut the trees to an obstructionless view of the lake and put in pristine green sodded lawns. Then they chemically treat them herbicides, pesticides, and fertilizers -- lake destroyers. I and other long-time residents are heartsick by this short-sighted selfishness. The lake is a resource that we should husband so it can be passed on to our heirs and future generations. For whatever selfish viewing pleasure they get out of it (look at my lawn!), that the lake will eutrophy and be destroyed by their short term selfishness is a crime against decency and they DONT CARE. Its not a perfect correlation, but a lot of these chemical-loving transplants are the same wokesters with the 'Shutdown Line 5' signs. What hypocrites. Future generations will rightly curse us for what we have left them.
Cookietough
Posts: 46
Incept: 2018-12-29

JBLM
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@M1919a2 - Yes, that is a serious Achilles heel in our nation. Millions will die if the power grid goes down.
Simkin
Posts: 1
Incept: 2012-02-16

Vancouver, BC, Canada
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The same climate change activists want to kill off natural gas, too. There are cities that have forbidden installing natural gas in any new construction. Enjoy heat pumps and stupidly expensive resistive heat.
Chaparral
Posts: 1074
Incept: 2007-09-11

Los Angeles
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Well, if the ****ers in Lansing and Detroit and Ann Arbor could freeze, that'd be not a bad thing.

There's a handful in Marquette and Escanaba that need to be fed to bears in the UP as well.
M1919a2
Posts: 702
Incept: 2015-07-18

Washington
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Breitbart reports this statement by the Sioux Chief

link: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/....

In 1970, I was in ROTC Summer camp at Ft Lewis, WA, when my grandmother's sister came to visit her in Cd'A, ID. My brother told me later that my great aunt made the following comment - she and my grandmother's whole family grew up in eastern Colorado (grandma was born 1884) - "the only good indian was a dead indian". I was shocked, shocked I tell ya!

Just saying 50 years ago!
Karlinmichigan
Posts: 27
Incept: 2020-04-04

Karlin, Michigan
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That said, Enbridge does not have a good track record in Michigan. See the Kalamazoo River and the Enbridge oil pipeline disaster in 2010. A 5 year cleanup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_....

NTSB "found ... that the operating firm, which had received an automated signal from the pipeline that a breach had occurred, misunderstood or did not believe the signal and attempted to continue to pump dilbit [diluted bitumen] oil through the pipeline for 17 hours after the breach".

Or how about we trust the reassurances of governments at multiple levels, billion dollar corporations and trillion dollar insurance companies?

Look at the multi-company, multi-government Brown Bridge Dam Disaster on the Boardman River near Traverse City in 2012.

https://www.mlive.com/news/2013/05/dam_c....
https://www.record-eagle.com/news/local_....

Multiple entities sued, including the City of Traverse City and the State of Michigan DEQ. Fingers of blame pointed in all directions. One by one the defendants were found by the courts to have immunity or were dismissed from the suit for 'reasons'. The outcome? Dozens of residents screwed by the man.
As a veteran paddler on the Boardman, I can tell you that the damage is still there -- washed out debris litters the river for miles downstream and has not been cleaned up, despite self-serving public relations pronouncements to the contrary.

How many will have to live with the long term damage of a Line 5 breach and never get full recompense?

I am not reassured.
Tickerguy
Posts: 165528
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Oh, I know..... I'm very, very aware of both of those incidents.

But if you freeze to death then your GHOST can deal with the future breach, eh?

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If you will not force justice to be done by any means necessary when over 50,000 are murdered by political hacks from both parties do not complain or expect my help when you or someone you love dies at their hand. -- Me
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