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Helluvaengineer
Posts: 94
Incept: 2008-12-04

Atlanta
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Oh, sorry. I left out the part where I looked it up and so far I've only invoiced 163 hours. That's for two developers working on the project. That's a man-month with no bs break room chit-chat, long lunches etc.
Quik49
Posts: 6052
Incept: 2007-12-11

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I get spammed all the time for offshore drafting and rendering services....this **** started in my business about 20 years ago....have always told them to either FO...basically ignore it. I cannot imagine outsourcing that part of my business and then have the liability of some dip**** across the ocean sending me crap. Nope, I like to right there in the action as my ass is on the line.

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Long Vaseline....

Captainkidd
Posts: 1475
Incept: 2010-05-25

Houston, Texas
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Quote:
The consunsus seemed to be that I should quit complaining and become a plumber, because they make over $80k/year. So yeah...that's basically why I'm not going on a suicide mission to save everyone.


I've tried to mentor a few younger guys over the years, and the last 10 years, they want the promotion, and the raise, but they don't want to do the work to earn it.
Their attitude is, "I've been here 2 years, so they should give me the promotion and raise, THEN you can teach me."

Sooooo, these days....
I'll do whatever it takes to protect and provide for me and mine....
And, that's all.

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A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a thousand men with guns. --Mario Puzo

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford
Drifter
Posts: 312
Incept: 2016-02-11

Pacific Northwest
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Don't forget that Boeing is using Indian engineers for the software patch that is supposed to make the 737 M flyable.

https://www.bloomberg.com/tosv2.html?vid....

Wouldn't want to be the test pilot.
Bodhi
Posts: 1225
Incept: 2008-02-23

Canton, GA
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@Helluvanengineer, reminds me of back in the days when I had my own interconnect company in Cali, programming and running wire for PBXs. This was over 25 years ago. A guy was moving his business and wanted me to quote a price to wire up the new office for the telephone system. I priced it at $50 per wire run. A few days later he calls and tells me he has a guy who will do the job for $35 per wire run. I told him to let the other guy do it. A week later the business owner sheepishly calls and tells me the other guy got all the wiring done, but the phones didn't work because he didn't know how to program the system. I laughed and said, "There's the difference. My price included programming." He replied, "Message received. Come out and get things working as soon as you can." I ended up programming the system for a full trip charge and a couple of hours of my time. I never liked running wire anyway. smiley
Redjack
Posts: 168
Incept: 2018-01-29

Iowa
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Depends on the area. I have had a decent career as an engineer (not IT or programming).

However, I have told my kids to not go into STEM. My buying power was stagnant for a decade as a bunch of overseas grads were hired on. My former (koch related) company had a manger who said "I will hire 10 engineers from Brazil before I give you a raise! ALL AMERICANS ARE OVER PAID!"

So while I am not a socialist, I understand why a struggling kid finds it attractive.

As to the plumber... The last one I hired was from the UK. He made about $40K. Said he left Britain because all the Polish and Indians were taking over the trades.
Wa9jml
Posts: 425
Incept: 2017-04-29

DeKalb, Illinois
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The late Irwin Feerst tried to get the IEEE to pull its head out of its rectum back in the 1980s. He ran for president of the IEEE to point out the nature of the foreign threat to EEs, and for his trouble he was branded a Xenophobe, and a lot less polite names. I joined the IEEE just to vote for him, but he went down in flames. I doubt that his is remembered by the IEEE at all. Such a shame when EEs have to compete with foreign engineers, and cannot.
Captainkidd
Posts: 1475
Incept: 2010-05-25

Houston, Texas
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Quote:
I have had a decent career as an engineer (not IT or programming).


Same here. Industrial/Manufacturing Engineer.

Quote:
My buying power was stagnant for a decade as a bunch of overseas grads were hired on.


Same here. My salary has been stagnant for at least a decade, with minimal annual increases. I'm around 10% above a decade ago.

But I see lots of H1B's and foreign nationals.

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A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a thousand men with guns. --Mario Puzo

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford
Marc2mrkt
Posts: 702
Incept: 2008-04-12

Taipei
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A while back I was in southern China visiting a factory. I had a Taiwanese friend who lived in the same city so I visited the company he managed as well. Next door to where his company was at, was a CAD drawing company. The owner was my friend's friend so he gave me a tour. There must have been at least 100 CAD workstations in this big hall. I asked what was their business and the owner replied they do all the facility/new store drawings for Walmart and Walgreen drug stores. I remember seeing on the wall of the owners office a photo of George Bush. Basically, the entire store planning was outsourced to the PRC.
Amused
Posts: 152
Incept: 2019-04-22

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This is why I say, they want to play this globalism game of race to the bottom? Then do it for everyone, no sacred cows. Give a Green Card to any Lawyer from London or Ottawa, give it to the Doctor from Paris or Frankfurt. Or the Stock Broker from Hong Kong.

Want open borders and Free Trade? Fine, let the deflationary effects **** everyone equally
Tickerguy
Posts: 158642
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Except it doesn't @Amused -- the Feds use that as their "lever" to be able to run deficit spending; it's WHY we didn't get huge inflation numbers, and still haven't. The problem is that you eventually run out of available jobs to fill this way (or everyone who is a citizen is unemployed!) at which point all that debt still requires service and then the monetary shenanigans come home to roost and you're ****ED.

Which, at this point, we are.

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Winding it down.
Chemdude
Posts: 13
Incept: 2017-08-29

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Precisely the reason I left Chemistry. Finished my PhD at Caltech in 2009, and it has been utterly useless for career options in that field. Caltech has the means to suppress it from the news, but suicides in their chemistry division are not uncommon. The divisions response to the above average rates was to send a survey asking students opinions on suicide / counseling / grad student life. Thank goodness they checked off that check box. My advisor didnt even receive a slap on the wrist for a suicide in his lab. After the counseling meeting concluded, I have this haunting memory of him mumbling, Im not a destroyer of life, Im a life saver. Funny enough I soon realized that most of the pharma industry is totally full of it, and that a large percentage of the diseases plaguing the American public likely resulted from poor nutrition. I asked my advisor why we were working so hard on Rube Goldberg solutions to disease when all roads point to better nutrition. His response: Youre wise for your age.
Emg
Posts: 414
Incept: 2012-11-20

Canada
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"After less than a year he had to leave because his green card wasn't being renewed."

I've heard similar things. Someone I know in the US posted a few weeks back that their green card renewal was going nowhere after a year or so and others they knew were in the same position. So Trump may actually be doing things behind the scenes.
Gonewest
Posts: 125
Incept: 2015-02-26

PacificNW
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Just about everything discussed here is the result of short-term thinking versus long-term thinking.

Very few people give a **** about anything but themselves. For Christ sake, most don't even care about their children or grandchildren. Decisions are based on what benefits me now and the future be damned.

That is why we are completely ****ed.
Flappingeagle
Posts: 3196
Incept: 2011-04-14

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Quote:
When the narrator related that she planned to follow up with something along the lines of an in depth study of ethnic diversity it went very quiet with only token applause.


What I have noticed is that all this SJW bull$hit is just a tiny minority that is being very vocal and "in your face" with their point of view. The vast majority thinks it is BS but will not confront them about it.

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave the Rat Race to the rats...
Aquapura
Posts: 902
Incept: 2012-04-19

South of Canada
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Quote:
...the owner replied they do all the facility/new store drawings for Walmart and Walgreen drug stores.


And CAD drafting isn't exactly a super high wage job here in the states. Especially for those that do production type work for the Walmarts and Walgreens of the world. Then again $2/hr is a lot different from $25/hr. From what I've heard you still need a domestic staff to "fix" the drawings before they can be issued so there are issues just like IT outsourcing.

The biggest cost in development is construction and I think it's foolish to shrug off outsourcing because jobs in the trades are plentiful and pay well. Anyone who doesn't think those high wages for the trades aren't being targeted is blind. Yes, we need more American's going into the trades than those getting worthless 4-year degrees in humanities but the high wages in trades will not last for long with open borders.

Compared to outsourcing some drafting on the design end, suppressing construction labor will keep far more $$$ in the pockets of the developers, aka, the trumps.
Helluvaengineer
Posts: 94
Incept: 2008-12-04

Atlanta
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@Tickerguy - as illustrated here, this game has been going on for 30+ years now. Everything since 2008 has been to kick the can. I agree about the gutting of America to suppress inflation pressures. So I know no one wants to call dates, but what are you thinking? Why can't this go on for another 10+ years while they implement NIRP and MMT?

I frankly don't see 95% of people catching on. I talk about this stuff with boomers on pensions and SS and they give me a deer in the headlights look. Basically they wonder why I don't quit griping and keep paying taxes, because they truly believe my retirement will be as good as theirs.
Tickerguy
Posts: 158642
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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@Helluvaengineer -- Because by 2024 the Medicare/Medicaid compounding blows up the deficit and funding costs. If they try to suppress it with MMT/NIRP then the spike higher in asset prices that are necessary for the economy to function (homes, commercial buildings and thus leases, etc) completely RAT****S 90% of the population. For the ~40% of Americans who rent homes they'll be forced into the streets and both the economy and civil society collapses immediately.

They may well try it but within the next five years you better be prepared for **** to get REAL ugly. If you're renting now you better fix that, even if what you buy is a trailer somewhere. And you also better choose somewhere based on its property tax level and the stability of same; if you're in a "diversity rich" area you are going to be fiscally destroyed.

Places where you've ALREADY seen this happen will get it in the ass far worse than those places where it hasn't. The Chicago area is a poster child for this, as is pretty-much any other large or medium city.

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Winding it down.
Helluvaengineer
Posts: 94
Incept: 2008-12-04

Atlanta
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@Tickerguy - I've been waiting for this to blow since, well the 90s. It just never has. Anyway, moved about 10 years ago to a place on 2+ acres in suburbs well outside of a major SE city (sure you can guess which one.) Picked it because it's on a river. Due to the AG zoning we aren't getting a huge influx of diversity. The houses around here went from $290k-$650k since 2008 because everyone had the same "get out of Dodge" idea and plenty of credit.

Just trying to keep the lights on and build as much savings as I can. No stocks to speak of. Guess I'll keep waiting. Thanks for your opinion.
Whitehat
Posts: 1255
Incept: 2017-06-27

Gone West
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in the early nineties at the university where i did some post graduate research there was one of the very few PhDs on a tenure track who told me something. apparently there was a very large lawsuit just prior to then for the same reasons that are discussed here. that there were no jobs waiting for the huge push of American students into STEM. i do not have much in terms of detail but the discussion and his warning stuck with me and informed my decisions to take a different path. this same major university shut down its physics and chemistry PhD programs and funneled these students to biochem and other options in its dept.

somebody realized that it was bull**** even early on.

personally noticed something else. the females were very heavily encouraged, promoted and patronized in the university as well as in disciplines requiring the scientific method and rigor. notable differences were that learning shifted to wrote as opposed to understanding. this can happen in science education as students become formulary learners. female and immigrant students also bring an unquestioning nature to the authority of the professor which they liked. male students of the old order seek to dominate a discipline, first by deep understanding and application and then by challenge. as long as the first is present the latter is not just acceptable but desirable. the final nail is that rather low GPA females along with lower application exam scores out placed all but the very few super lucky males in desirable graduate programs and professional schools.

there seems to have been a confluence of factors leading to this current situation and there was a crisis team which openly discussed these factors. starting in the late 80s there was a trend. their data recognized the following: parents were more likely to spend personal savings on daughters and let males fund their own way due to the perception that males had more options and more ability to work their way around college and its debt. there were many families with more daughters than males, either way increasing female enrollment was opening up another market, prospective spouses preferred a female with career options due to cost of living and would accept a female with education debt, companies preferred females due to their submissiveness to authority (men run the world, only question is which ones), females placed lower burdens on employers due to family formation and desire for time flexibility due to child rearing as opposed to high dollar earnings.

why was there a crisis? male students were beginning to drop as males could not justify the cost of college debt (this is an old problem, not new) and sought other opportunities, universities just like any other business have inflationary and legacy cost increases, there was an oversupply of universities and they feared excess capacity being realized by the market (there was historically unparalleled growth in the university experience mass marketed in the middle to late 20th century), most universities relied on a formula for learning and the experience leading to the perception that it was a commodity product, computer learning with achievement testing was viewed as a future threat, grants were expected to dry up (there was a somewhat conservative revolution in government at the time if only in name), universities could not afford to be selective with admissions or retention solely for economic reasons, the largest wealth transfer in the history of America was occurring as the older generations would pass on wealth to their children, the pre-college educational system had its own issues producing talent. there was also an overall sentiment that students from other countries had better preparation than American students and industry wanted them. however the American universities had to keep their doors open so they decided to produce mediocre graduates as holding the standards to keep us competitive with other countries would have lowered their profitability during what could have been a growth time. so they lowered standards, attracted and promoted females and produced too much, a good portion of it dreck. the men and few women who held themselves to higher standards were left with little to differentiate themselves at the institutional level and faced competition from both their lower standard countrymen and foreigners. many companies preferred to have a bunch of mediocre people over a few highly paid good ones and honestly, many of the foreigners came from ascending areas with very high standards just less income need.

many factors came together to create this mess.

Karl, privately i will email you the name and university of the professor mentioned here if you are ever interested in the lawsuit that he described. to my best knowledge he was not a part of it, just aware.

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There are two ways to be rich: One is by acquiring much, and the other is by desiring little.
snow, seasons, distance and dirt roads: SSDD
"Be not deceived; G-d is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Gal. 6:7)
Drifter
Posts: 312
Incept: 2016-02-11

Pacific Northwest
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I picked blueberries as a kid. Importing 3,000 foreign workers for picking fruit has ****ed American kids.

https://mynorthwest.com/1478534/washingt....
Tickerguy
Posts: 158642
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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@Drifter -- Someone I know has a moderately-small asparagus farm. When it needs to be picked she has what looks like a go-cart contraption you ride on; it's slow and steered with your feet, it goes between two rows, you pick on each row and into the basket for that side (which has a convenient mounting point) it goes.

Is that beneath some US citizen? Not at all. Want to guess what happens if you get rid of that job for someone who is of low skill and education that IS a US citizen in favor of someone who makes $3/hour instead of the federal minimum? Uh huh. Does the farmer make more money? Somewhat more, yes. Is your asparagus cheaper? Maybe by a couple pennies a bunch. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PERSON WHO NO LONGER HAS A JOB BUT IS A CITIZEN AS A CONSEQUENCE?

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Winding it down.
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