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2019-05-01 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in 2ndAmendment , 1373 references Ignore this thread
No Respect For #2A? Get Out. Refuse? Well....
[Comments enabled]

MSNBC made a grievous error -- they told the truth.

'In Venezuela, gun ownership is not something that's open to everybody. So if the military have the guns, they have the power.'

This is why the Second Amendment exists.

It is why the 2nd Amendment explicitly protects the people's right to own military weapons.

The very same weapons the military would and does use.

In fact Miller, one of the seminal Second Amendment cases at the Supreme Court, turned on the government lying.

Miller was charged with having a sawed-off shotgun.  The government claimed it was not a "militia weapon" that had "no military or militia purpose."  They lied.  The government had in fact purchased thousands of sawed-off (short-barrel) shotguns for trench warfare in WWI.

They knew this.

They knowingly lied to the Supreme Court.

Neither the Government, the people or the Supreme Court has done anything about that lie since.  Nobody went to prison for perjury and the decision was not reversed when the lie was discovered.

Nor has the NRA done anything about it -- like demand it be reversed right now -- and mean it.

Nor has the Gun Owners of America.

Nor has JPFO.

Nor have the people.

You are seeing, right now in Venezuela, why the people must retain the right to keep and bear military-grade weapons, which the 2nd Amendment explicitly protects, and no citizen can permit or advocate for anything other than the full restoration of that right and demand same, backing that with whatever may become necessary.

Yes, I do mean all of said weapons including machine guns and even bazookas -- and their modern counterparts.

What else stops an MRAP that is running over civilians as an act of tyranny?

No registration, no serial numbers, no tracking anything, period.  Shall not be infringed.  Period.

To those who say "That can't happen here":

YES IT CAN AND WHEN IT DOES ONLY THOSE WEAPONS, IN PRIVATE HANDS WITH THE GOVERNMENT HAVING NO IDEA WHERE THEY ARE OR WHO HAS THEM UNTIL THEY'RE USED, WILL STOP IT.  THAT IS THE EXACT REASON THE SECOND AMENDMENT EXISTS AND CONTAINS THE WORDS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

LEARN FROM HISTORY PLAYING OUT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW OR YOU AND THOSE YOU LOVE -- INCLUDING YOUR CHILDREN -- WILL BE MURDERED  EXACTLY LIKE THE PEOPLE IN RWANDA AND COUNTLESS OTHER NATIONS.

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Ahhz
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I was similarly surprised by the writing in an article on Deadline about the recent shooting at a synagogue near San Diego:

https://deadline.com/2019/04/multiple-pe....
Quote:
An off-duty Border Patrol agent was inside the synagogue at the time of the shooting and opened fire, according to local media reports. The agent missed, but the gunman fled. The agents actions possibly prevented more carnage.


I'm sure the writer didn't see the connection because it was an "off-duty officer," but person with a gun stops bad person with a gun shines pretty clear to me.

Crossthread
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Quote:
The government had in fact purchased thousands of sawed-off (short-barrel) shotguns for trench warfare in WWI.


Also purchased "Shotguns" for use in Vietnam.. 'Close Quarters & dense cover' Combat. My Dad often spoke of His .Mil Issue shotgun, He used in the Jungle in Nam. Special Forces, while training the Montagnards.

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Supertruckertom
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From the Twitter link comments:

Quote:
sean fine
‏ @SeanFine27
16h16 hours ago

please elaborate on this point. the US has 6,800 nuclear warheads, thousands of f18s, tanks, drones, scud missiles, navy seals, etc. what do you have, an ar15? good luck

He even has the gall to post his smiling face on his profile.
IFF time. I checked his profile.
 

That is the face of a person that would run over you with an MRAP.
They are willing to kill you if you oppose their political will.

People that want to rule over other people really do have a personality disorder.
They can only do that after disarming the population.


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Elkad
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They still have super-cheap gasoline, no?

Dissolve something (styrofoam, soap flakes, some carpets) in it until it gels. Pour it on the APCs. Light.

Not super-effective, but better than hitting the APC with sticks.
Flappingeagle
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It is hubris by those on the left. Those on the left think that they are smarter than everyone else and that if "they" are in charge the violence and persecution that you see in other countries will not happen.

What they do not see is that it is those with their mindset who are prone to committing the persecution and violence.

Flap

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Fumei
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Tom, you left out some of the other info about the tyrant; he claims to be "Esq.", so he is probably a shyster. And he is involved with Acme ATM, so he could be a bankster. And as a self declared progressive in Miami, he is likely happy all the Floridian felons can vote in the next election. Maybe they can veto his ass by voting .308.
Asimov
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When people express outrage about military weapons in the hands of civilians:

What do you do when your government does this?



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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.

Festina lente.
Tickerguy
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@Asimov -- Use a bazooka.

Which is why you need one.

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Winding it down.
Emg
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The founders were quite happy with privately-owned cannon, so there's no reason to believe the 2A wasn't meant to apply to bazookas and RPGs.
Ahhz
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sean fine on twitter wrote..
please elaborate on this point. the US has 6,800 nuclear warheads, thousands of f18s, tanks, drones, scud missiles, navy seals, etc. what do you have, an ar15? good luck


Typical limited thinking by those types. What dip**** Esq doesn't get is:



Flappingeagle
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I wonder what it will take to penetrate one of those vehicles? .50 cal with AP?
20mm? RPG? Killdozer would be too slow.

Flap

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S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave the Rat Race to the rats...
Tickerguy
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.50 BMG would almost-certainly go through the windows. The sides, maybe, depending on where. The top, probably, but getting a shot at that would require an elevated platform.

The bottom, no.

MRAPs and similar are armored against typical IED attacks; they are designed to channel explosions under and around them from the sides sufficiently well to prevent them from being blown up.

They're not tanks, in short. A RPG is, in the end, just a grenade. There's no focus to their explosion; they kill through expelling fragments, mostly, and the fragments aren't any worse individually than a bullet.

Any sort of shaped/directed charge, such as an old-style WWII bazooka, would go through the windows like they were butter. It's pretty much impossible to make a window that will withstand that sort of attack which is why tanks don't have windows.

The tires on these things are also normally pneumatic; while they're pretty thick, much more so than an ordinary truck tire they can be shot out or lit on fire and will burn as will anything else made out of rubber.

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Fumei
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Karl, a bazooka would be a good choice, but even in the USSA, the evil people, willingly backed up by modern helots, i.e. the vast majority of the citizens, have made it exceedingly difficult to acquire one.

I did notice in the video that Molotov cocktails were being served, but ineffectively. If they targeted the rubber tires, maybe they could get a mobility kill by igniting a tire.

As for answers to Asimov's question, in no particular order,
burn the homes of any tyrant and their public supporters,
kill or main their families, friends, or pets,
get roofing nails by the pallet, steal a car and drive on a major highway used by supply trucks and toss a carton load of those nails out the window every kilometer,
cause a crash with a truck on a bridge, as soon as it is safe to exit the car, throw a Molotov cocktail on the back tires of the truck,
get into a truck stop at night and burn the back tires of as many rigs as I could and make my get away,
get metal drums that look like the ones used for HAZMAT, print up stickers that look like HAZMAT warnings, put them on the drums, fill the drums with stinky, disgusting ****, dump them at night where they can found and people will notice; private schools, farms owned by rich people, parks popular with the upper classes,
And for use in the USSA, get a copy of a notice of seizure by the FBI or LEO alter it as needed and put it on the doors of various businesses closed on a Sunday.

So the thing to do is make the lives of the tyrants and their ilk short or at least extremely unpleasant. I suspect that in the case of the USSA, the modern helots will also need life to become unpleasant, so that they will stop being helots.

Spanktron9
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3 points.

1. Asimov's video of the MRAPs running down citizens (H/T @Delphis) needs to become a "Wants more government... More government" Meme.


2. KD, as usual, is correct. Molotov cocktails, sticky/sock bombs, etc will wreak havoc on the rubber and create chaos and confusion within the MRAP.

3. I also believe, but do not "know" that concentrated small arms fire at say the driver's window would destroy the ablative armor and eventually penetrate. Say 50 shooters within 50 yards single shot, repeatedly at the driver's window. Steel core or API if you have it.

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Wifi
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Take usable oxygen out of surrounding area, when occupants depart vehicle administer lead vitamins.

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Gauntlet33
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The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does "Arms" include all types of weapons of war besides just "guns", including tanks, grenades, bombs, etc.?

If the Founders of America wanted American citizens to have an even fighting chance against an oppressive government, then arguably "Arms" includes all types of weapons of war...arguably even chemical, audio, and biological weapons...

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this.
Jack_crabb
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Sean Fine is a non-thinking useless idiot dip**** in all likelihood being sucked off by Swallow-well the leftist tyrant.

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Molon Labe
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Tickerguy
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@Gauntlet33 -
Quote:
The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does "Arms" include all types of weapons of war besides just "guns", including tanks, grenades, bombs, etc.?

If the Founders of America wanted American citizens to have an even fighting chance against an oppressive government, then arguably "Arms" includes all types of weapons of war...arguably even chemical, audio, and biological weapons...

It clearly involves all those which reasonably would be used by a tyrannical government against its own people.

This likely excludes nuclear, biological and chemical weapons; it is highly unlikely that a tyrannical government would nuke its own landmass.

HOWEVER, it most-certainly does include tanks, grenades, MRAPs, explosives and similar. Indeed, at the time of the 2nd Amendment there were a material number of canon -- the "heaviest" weapons of war currently available -- in private hands. They were considered part of "arms" without question.

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Elkad
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If it's got windows, you can get into it with steel-core rifle ammo.

Just takes several shots, or magazines, depending on caliber.

AP out of a .50 probably won't even slow noticeably on the windows. And will likely penetrate the sides just fine if you can get a square hit from a moderate range.

Once you chew up a window with steelcore out of your 30.06 or AK, empty a mag through the same windows and ricochets will do a decent job on the occupants. Of course if the vehicle is moving, you'll need people who can aim.

Any idiot can knock together caltrops out of angle iron and flatten the tires. Sure, runflat and central inflation may give some resistance to that, but the vehicle becomes slower and less maneuverable.

The improvised napalm I mentioned above will set the tires on fire nicely. And blacken the windows so they can't see. And make dismounting incredibly unpleasant. Once the tires are flat, stack firewood on it until the screaming stops.
Vernonb
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With am MRAP I assume if a steel or hardened metal projectile were able to penetrate or gain internal entry it would ricochet internally till it found a target?

If so once compromised it is a death trap.

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Tsherry
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It's been said before above, but at the point where the Venezuelan people find themselves now, they need to destroy anyone and everyone associated with those that are running them over, pointing guns at them, and wanting them dead, either through gunfire or starvation. The ruling class isn't that big. Their protectors are wildly outnumbered by "Jose Garcia" and his peers.

Hitting hard targets is all well and good, but as those hard targets are engaged, the soft targets are more plentiful, require far less sacrifice and risk, and the gains are arguably more powerful than having a hundred people take on an MRAP and ten walk away in one piece. A hundred soft targets, hit by fifty dedicated individuals, per day, will make quite an impression.

This means first burning down the homes of the soldiers and guards. Give their families moments to escape. The wives and kids will be terrified, which is the point. If the soldier doesn't get the point and walks away from the conflict with their weapons down and uniforms in a pile, they and their families unfortunately just became targets too.

It's not that difficult to find out who people work for and where they go to do business.

Enough of that, and it won't take much, and you'll see mass desertions, along with a slaughter or two. Then, go after the people giving the orders in the same manner as the wall of guns and tanks protecting them melts away.

Finally, hang all of them in a very visible and high-end public plaza, and let them rot there until all that's left are skeletons. And, ensure that every adult male and female in the country is required to own and be proficient with military grade weapons, permanently.

Seriously doubt that this will happen though.


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Omne mendacium est.
Ingar
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I read an account of the robbery of a Brinks armored car by the white separatist organization known as the Order. It seems that they pulled a pickup truck in front of the vehicle on a winding mountain road and a passenger riding in the bed of the truck held up a sign for the armored car driver to pull over and open the doors. The driver, feeling confident that the "bullet proof" glass would protect him, continued driving. The passenger in the pickup truck produced a rifle and fired a couple of rounds of 30-06 AP through the "bullet proof" glass, thus persuading the driver to pull over and open the doors. No one in an armored vehicle wants to hear a hardened projectile bouncing around inside with them.
I'm not sure which armored vehicles available to the constabulary or military have glass that will defeat the 30 cal AP that was used by our military from the 1940's through the 1960's; millions of rounds of this stuff was produced and I suspect that a lot of it is still in civilian hands.
Peterm99
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Quote:
A RPG is, in the end, just a grenade.
Well, the early post-WWII ones perhaps, but the later variants from the 50s on got much, much better as time went on. One of the anti-armor warheads is a shaped-charge that is just slightly less effective than modern HEAT rounds we use. Another is a "dual charge" warhead, the first of which explodes early to defeat the reactive elements protecting the armor, allowing the second charge to penetrate the now "bare" armor of >15 inch thickness. Even the B-40 variant used by the NVA against us in the 60s could penetrate up to ~8-10 inch armor, IIRC.

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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwells imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
Tickerguy
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The dual-charge ones, and those with a shaped-charge on the front would be quite effective.... especially if you get a hit on the windows.

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Winding it down.
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