Texas Church Shooter
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2017-11-06 07:41 by Karl Denninger
in 2ndAmendment , 369 references Ignore this thread
Texas Church Shooter
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First, a good guy with a gun stopped the bad guy with a gun.  The good guy wasn't a cop; it was a civilian that stopped this rampage and he put himself at considerable risk to do so.  The Second Amendment must be restored to its original words as a matter of functional law; it is not an anachronism and this incident proves why it is critical that it both be restored and respected.

Second, and at least as importantly, the attacker's firearm(s) were illegally owned.

Why?

There are conflicting reports as to whether the attacker had a "Bad Conduct" or "Dishonorable" discharge from the military.  A dishonorable discharge is equivalent to a civilian felony conviction and bars you from firearms ownership; a "Bad Conduct" discharge doesn't necessarily do so.

But in this particular case it did because the incident that led to the courts martial revolved around domestic violence against his wife and child and the discharge was the result of his conviction at the courts martial.

Even misdemeanor convictions for domestic violence are sufficient to bar you from firearms ownership under the Lautenberg Amendment.  Thus, barring some sort of specific proceeding that erased that record he could not legally buy or possess a firearm.  If he tried to buy guns anyway he should have failed the background check.

Oh, incidentally, it's illegal to own or buy body armor if you are barred from owning firearms as well.

And yes, the FBI's records do have military discharge records in them, so if you lie on a 4473 you're going to get caught.

I'm sure we'll eventually find out where he got the gun (there are reports he had more than one in his vehicle) but I'm pretty sure I know where he didn't get it -- in a legal transaction post his discharge, and further, when that happened I'm sure his military attorney not only explained that to him he was also likely asked about firearms he owned at the time and told to surrender them.

But, since this jackass was willing to murder he obviously also didn't care about any laws constraining him from acquiring or possessing firearms either.

Oh by the way it appears that Texas Law Enforcement refused to issue him a CWP!  So here we are with a state that properly enforced the law but the FBI and NICS couldn't find their ass with both hands -- again.

PS: I'll lay 5:1 odds this guy was full of SSRIs -- either at the time or in the past.  Even Trump has said this is a "mental health" issue.  Yes, it almost-certainly is but it is also an issue of pharmaceutical companies and doctors pushing psychotropic drugs that have a known risk of potentiating "rage monster" incidents, yet not one doctor or pharmaceutical company has ever been indicted and prosecuted as an accessory before the fact due to their knowing these reactions occur in a material percentage of the people taking such drugs and failing to monitor and appropriately control for said reactions.

Update 11/6 17:19 - Reuters is reporting that the Air Force failed to report the shooter's domestic violence conviction.  Had they done so he would have failed the NICS background check when buying his guns.  When do we start holding officials who are grossly negligent in the discharge of their duties accountable as accomplices before the fact to the carnage that results from said negligence?

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User Info Texas Church Shooter in forum [Market-Ticker]
Jcneall
Posts: 1
Incept: 2010-07-23

Houston
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I wonder if we'll ever know what mental illness drugs he was on?
Jdough
Posts: 88
Incept: 2012-05-04

The Lone Star State
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Quote:
Devin Kelley purchased the Ruger-AR556 rifle in April 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors in San Antonio, a law enforcement official tells @evanperez.

Official says Kelley checked box to indicate he didnt have any disqualifying criminal history on background paperwork

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/nojs_router....

CNN reporting legal purchase. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if the NICS system is all jacked up, given the general state of Federal IT. Or maybe he got a hold and they didn't follow up within the 3 days. Either way a failure. There will be those who clamor for more laws, as always, even though we can't implement the laws we do have.

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If you are still in possession of your life, all avenues are open.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150345
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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It was not a legal purchase.

If NICS passed him despite a FEDERAL disqualifying event (this was NOT a "failure to report" problem from a state!) then go talk to the ****ing FBI.

DD-214s are FEDERAL records.

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Winding it down.
Krzelune
Posts: 5806
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LOL. yeah.. federal records. You found the problem. Probably be easier to find the info on wikileaks.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150345
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Yep.

He lied on the form (which is a crime by the way) which NICS should have immediately detected. He was convicted of a crime of domestic violence (by a courts martial, which carries the same weight as a civilian conviction) and got a Bad Conduct discharge as a result. The DD-214 on that is a FEDERAL record as is the Courts Martial charges and specifications under the UCMJ.

The Lautenberg Amendment bars anyone convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence from owning a firearm and there is a SPECIFIC question on the 4473 asking if you have ever had such happen. Unless that courts martial was successfully appealed and set aside he was required to answer "Yes" which is a disqualifying answer, and if he lied that should have been immediately caught and resulted in either a denied or delayed (and then denied!) transaction.

He obviously DID NOT CARE if he was breaking federal firearms laws if he lied, and in addition he obviously DID NOT CARE if he was breaking the law when he started shooting people either!

The ONLY person "more gun control" would have disarmed IS THE GOOD GUY WHO STOPPED HIM!

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Winding it down.

Ee4fire
Posts: 343
Incept: 2011-03-24

Washington, DC
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Laws and locks keep honest people honest. Punishment & jails are supposed to keep the criminals from committing crimes. Seems this guy lied on his application and the system missed it. So the idiot politicians will want more gun laws they can't enforce to make more innocent citizens become victims.

The same idiots want the gov't to handle our healthcare records. Judges keep rotating the crooks out of jail. Just like the idiot that killed a number of former co-workers in MD & DE several weeks ago. Rap sheet a mile long.

Not to mention and slightly off topic Beau Bergdahl and his lunatic act of treason gets 5 of his fellow soldiers killed and one disabled for life and serves NO jail time. Should have gone to Leavenworth for a minimum of a life sentence if not the death penalty. Judge should be removed and sent there for malfeasance in office.

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(Politicians), 536 commoditized temple monkeys pawing through the ruins of America in search of bribes. (The District of Corruption) works like a vending machine. You put coins in the slot, select your law, and the desired legislation slides out." Fred Reed. Some editting by me.


Tickerguy
Posts: 150345
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A True American Patriot!
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Yep.

Bergdahl should have faced the firing squad for that crap. He got several killed and one permanently maimed due to his intentional misconduct, for which he was found GUILTY.

Yes, he has a federal lifetime felony record now, but that is NOT enough.

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Winding it down.
Jfms99
Posts: 219
Incept: 2009-10-06

Msumelle, Ar
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My guess on why he passed that background check is that while that information was on a computer, the computers can't and don't speak to each other, due to software and hardware incompatibility.

Remember the Charleston killer had felony charges against him which should have prevented him from buying a gun. Yet because the computers were not able to talk to each other and access that information to prevent the sale he was approved.

So this guy slipped through the cracks possibly because of computer errors. If that is and was the case then more laws will not change things.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150345
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A True American Patriot!
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Quote:
My guess on why he passed that background check is that while that information was on a computer, the computers can't and don't speak to each other, due to software and hardware incompatibility.

Well the Texas government didn't have a problem with finding the record (a FEDERAL record!); they denied him a carry permit!

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Winding it down.
Quik49
Posts: 4149
Incept: 2007-12-11

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Sheesh...it's not like the guy bought it from a private party....talk about salt in the wound.... those laws sure worked out well didnt they

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Long Vaseline....

Flaps10
Posts: 6756
Incept: 2008-10-17

PNW
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jfm wrote..

My guess on why he passed that background check is that while that information was on a computer, the computers can't and don't speak to each other, due to software and hardware incompatibility.

And yet by 5am even CNN had all this, using publicly available information one could obtain while wearing pajamas and sipping coffee.

Jduwaldt
Posts: 637
Incept: 2010-06-10

Orange County, CA
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Fast and Furious, Part Deux?

Only somewhat tongue in cheek: we don't know for sure the Texas CWP denial was because of the DD-214, there could have been domestic documentation available to Texas too.

It would be interesting to run the identities of people with similar circumstances through NICS and see who is rejected and who is not...

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It's not an issue of "cooperation" vs "go it alone": it's a question of involuntary vs voluntary relationships.
Nevertoolate
Posts: 1378
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A True American Patriot!
San Antonio de Bexar de runover with illegals, Texas
Online
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Don't think for a minute that if he had been rejected at the point of purchase, he would have gone to the southside of San Antonio and procured anything from a fully automatic 50 cal. down. Fully automatic or semiautomatic, if you have the cash someone will get it for you. NQA

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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Nadavegan
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The South
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I hate to wade too far into the tinbin, but we already know more about this guy the next day, then we do about the Vegas shooter a month later.
Scottj175
Posts: 34
Incept: 2010-09-06

Vandiver, AL
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Former classmate claims he was on some form of Reaver creating drug at some point.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/06/tex....

Quote:
His parents had him on high doses of psych meds from 6th to 9th grade, the time I knew him, said the student, who only wished to be identified as Reid.
Quik49
Posts: 4149
Incept: 2007-12-11

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Well the local radio station talk show is getting it right...

Good guy with gun stops bad guy with one.

I'm with you on that thought Nad....

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Long Vaseline....

Lenguado
Posts: 2162
Incept: 2010-01-12
A True American Patriot!
Orlando, FL
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Nadavegan,
Quote:
but we already know more about this guy the next day, then we do about the Vegas shooter a month later

Because THIS one fits the formula / narrative?

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I just realized... they aren't saying, "Keynesian Economics"
they're saying "Kenyansian Economics". Grass Huts for everyone!
smiley
Welcome to historys first Double Dip Depression
Supertruckertom
Posts: 1506
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USA
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Story gets canned now.
Citizen that intervened is an NRA member and NRA certified Instructor.


http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/texas/a....

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Preparing to go Hunting.
Nevertoolate
Posts: 1378
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A True American Patriot!
San Antonio de Bexar de runover with illegals, Texas
Online
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Air Force now admitting they did not enter the correct information in the FBI data base to prevent him from passing background check.

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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Quik49
Posts: 4149
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Oh for **** sake.....you have to be kidding me...wont matter to the lefties...that's off target for them....

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Long Vaseline....

Sean
Posts: 2932
Incept: 2009-04-21


Banned
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GEN 5:32,GEN 7:6, 6/17/1689, 6/17/1789, 10/13/1917, 10/13/2017 (???)
Nevertoolate
Posts: 1378
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A True American Patriot!
San Antonio de Bexar de runover with illegals, Texas
Online
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Attorney General Abbott was asked if he was going to prosecute the two citizens who shot and engaged the gunman in a high speed chase? His reply, "Not in Texas, they are heroes."

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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Peterm99
Posts: 5864
Incept: 2009-03-21

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Quote:
Air Force now admitting they did not enter the correct information in the FBI data base . . .
Just one more example of gross incompetence by gov't orgs/employees.

Unlike the civil service, the military theoretically has strict accountability for individual performance - I'd like to see this happen in this instance.

Not so much for the (likely) E-3 clerk who screwed up, but his superior officers up through several levels of the chain of command should face career-ending courts-martial for failure to properly supervise, dereliction of duty, and/or similar.

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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwells imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
Orionrising
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0....

interview with the armed citizen.
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