Yes, But....
The Market Ticker - Commentary on The Capital Markets
2017-11-01 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in Personal Health , 233 references Ignore this thread
Yes, But....
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Oh boy, lookie here, we have something new to screw with your brain!

People have been losing weight by counting calories for years. But some recent medical studies are trying to prove that if you want the ultimate benefit of better dietary habits — less diseases and a longer life — your body may need to think you're eating less often, too.

Longevity scientists are studying food fasting to find out if regular periods of going without any food, or making your body think you are going without food, could be a key to lengthening the human lifespan.

There's almost-certainly some validity to this.

For most predatory animals food is not a given.  Not only must said animal work for it but they fail a decent part of the time too.  Energy expended during a hunt tends to be high, and success rates vary, so there are plenty of instances where said animal hunts but doesn't eat.

Fail often enough, of course, and you starve to death.

But there's nothing particularly unique about humans in this regard.  We're clearly not foragers (like a cow or a horse); our digestive systems, from teeth onward, are not set up that way.  Nor do we have eyes on the sides of our head (that is, we cannot see threats coming from behind, which is crucial to a forager.)  Our eyes are on the front of our heads because in order to hunt accurately you need stereoscopic vision so you can judge depth.  To be able to judge depth we give up visual threat detection from the rear.

But in a world where not eating is a voluntary act, rather than one driven by hunting prowess (or more to the point, the lack thereof) we keep coming back to the same thing: Fast carbohydrates produce insulin spikes.  Insulin spikes, when they abate, make you ravenously hungry.

The reason those fast carbohydrates didn't make the Chinese crazily fat for a few thousand years is that they were literally peasants.  They didn't have the ability to eat as much as they wanted, when they wanted, because their available quantity of food was limited.  There was no bag of rice to be had at the store any time you desired another one.

Ditto for those who subsisted on potatoes in Europe.  Eat 'em all now and you have none for a year!

Never mind that now you have people trying to commercialize it.  At $300/week just for the five monthly fasting days we're talking about $15,000 in additional food costs!  Further, I ain't buying the unsaturated (vegetable oil) crap they're including as "good."

Want the same results?  It's not really all that difficult.  Get the carbs out of your diet and you'll find that not eating until noon is easy and provokes nothing in the way of a ravenous hunger response -- no "hangries", no "raid the refrigerator NOW" episodes, nothing of the sort.  If you eat dinner at 6:00 that means you're fasting for 18 hours a day without doing anything special or spending one thin extra dime.

Now if you wish to add to that one day a week of no meaningful caloric intake, well, have at it.  It'll be a hell of a lot easier than trying to do it if you're eating carbohydrates, that much I assure you.  But I suspect, if relative benefit was to be studied, that you're grasping at the last 10 or 20% of the benefit with that 24-hour weekly fast (which is really 42 hours when you add it all up), and the effort to maintain it might be rather significant.

The every day 18 hour deal, on the other hand, is very nearly effortless -- and while it not only doesn't it cost you anything it doesn't make a bunch of *******s rich ripping you off either.

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Ktrosper
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ft collins co
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/nod
Thank you.
smiley

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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates
The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle
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Lunatic_fringe
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I couldn't agree more with this. Fasting has other benefits as well as restoring insulin normality... it stimulates autophagy (cellular repair), apoptosis (cell suicide - very important if you have cancer), increased human growth hormone release (HGH release is stymied in a fed state) and other hormonal benefits as well. All these things occur after a 12 hour fast so if you eat before bed and eat an early breakfast you're actively working against your body.

During winter when the sun goes down early and rises late it's particularly easy to do a therapeutic fast every day if you just follow the sun - eat dinner early (no late night snacking) and eat breakfast late. Anything over 12 hours is going to give you benefits.
Flappingeagle
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I went on the Keto diet and was losing weight for awhile but then seemed to stall. Once I switched to 18/6 my weight loss resumed.

For the last two weeks I've been experimenting to learn if I can have a little heavy cream in my morning coffee or if I need to keep it black. I am also testing how much coffee I can have in total as caffeine may trigger some insulin release.

Like Lunatic said, the benefits START after the 12th hour of no calories going in so, the 18 hours of no calories going in gives 6 hours of real benefits. Apparently, after communicating with some other folks, they have lost significant weight from 18/6, 17/7, and even 16/8. Unless you are in a hurry to lose weight the key seems to be going at least a couple of hours past the 12 hour mark with no calories, and maybe no caffeine.

While doing this lifestyle any hunger pains or noticing my belly is empty seems to happen around the 12 hour mark. Once the pass in just a couple of minutes I'm good.

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave the Rat Race to the rats...
Happytrails
Posts: 334
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Northern California
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Saw my doc this week for results of my annual physical/blood work. I've been doing LCHFMP with 16-18 hour fasting since the first of the year. He was blown away by my blood work and weight loss. All the weight I lost was fat, no muscle. A1c normal, kidney function improving, artery age declining. He is a proponent of eating like this but cautioned about doing it long term. I said why change? I'm eating good fats, good proteins and lots of veggies. What am I supposed to add back, bread? No thanks. He said just a few low glycemic fruits and maybe occasional winter squash or sweet potato.

Karl, do you know of any studies that contraindicate this as a permanent lifestyle?
Bagbalm
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Just North of Detroit
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Since I've been eating very low carb I haven't been interested in eating until sometime after 10am. Since we eat when my wife comes home from work at 5pm that works fine with no special effort. Now I'm retired. I eat when I'm hungry except the one meal with my wife. I suspect a lot of people eat when they have the time open to do so in their work schedule more than actually heeding their body signals.
Ckaminski
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Mass-Hole!
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Quote:

Karl, do you know of any studies that contraindicate this as a permanent lifestyle?


Karl has been writing about this for going on what, 5 years now?

The fact that he keeps writing about it should answer that question for you.
Whitehat
Posts: 165
Incept: 2017-06-27

New York City
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@Happytrails

"Karl, do you know of any studies that contraindicate this as a permanent lifestyle?"

from my personal experience NONE. over twenty years doing it and it is the reason that i made it to 46. not dead has to count for something. even during a severe relapse i had more energy and ability to do things than most men younger than me. actually my doctor has me introduce things like sweet potato and similar fall fruits as i have a problem accumulating body fat.

stop looking for a reason, that something which works must have a drawback. life is a fatal disease. live with it while you have it.

here are some related cool links from an author that really gets it. worth reading her writings.

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2017....

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2013....

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012....

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There are two ways to be rich: One is by acquiring much, and the other is by desiring little.
Jfms99
Posts: 220
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Msumelle, Ar
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Well here is my little story on the virtues of the Low Carb/No Carb Diet, which includes giving up all grains, especially Wheat products. I am a Type II diabetic.

I tried getting on this diet in the spring of 2016 and I saw some results then I started fudging on it because I was walking a great deal I thought I could. Well you can't do that.

Anyway this past July even though I was walking 3 miles a day at lest 5 days a week my A1C had gotten to 8.4. My doctor wanted to put me on Victoza in addition to the oral medication I was on. Well I decided I had to get on the diet and stick to it no matter what.

At the end on October I retested my A1C and it had dropped to 6.00 and I am only taking one pill a day instead of four and I hope in another two or three months no medications at all.

I also just read recently Dr. William Davis' book "Wheat Belly" on the problems and potential dangers of GMO grains, focusing on Wheat. What a revelation reading that book was. The bottom line on this is that Karl and others are right in that diet makes the difference. Sadly most people with Type II diabetes will not change those habits and will be taking more medication rather than less.
Londoncat
Posts: 93
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Kansas
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Karl,
Thanks so much for these occasional LCHF posts. It has been a real life changer for me. I was always the kid that could eat anything he wanted and stay skinny as a rail. In fact, I worked pretty hard at eating a lot to keep weight on - that is, until my late 30's. Then I slowly starting adding a pound or two of fat every year. Blood pressure was creeping up. Sleep started getting worse. Inflammation markers (HSCRP readings) began going up. Working out and running more was not reversing anything. At the pace I was going, by 55 I would probably be 40-50 pounds overweight, and possibly per-diabetic even though I was eating just like the FDA was recommending. Your articles on this topic prompted me to do a deep dive into the research - and the results were astonishing to me.

I'm just wrapping up year 2 of the diet. I have been extremely strict (70-80% healthy fat as my daily caloric intake) and have only deviated slightly on my birthdays and Christmas - but still keeping total carbs under 100 on those days. I'm 45 now and, like others have stated, my Doctor is blown away by my results. He puts me in the top 1/2 of 1% of all the patients he sees. My blood markers are fantastic and he said he is always excited to see my triglyceride and HSCRP numbers because they are in ranges that he didn't think were even possible. I have twice the energy and naturally need 90 minutes less sleep than when on the standard american diet. Severe year-round allergies are virtually gone. Mental clarity is off the charts. Got a huge, natural, boost in testosterone. I can run further/faster/longer than I ever have before. Fasting is easy and natural. Doing the 18/6 or 20/4 eating window is very convenient and it now just kind of happens naturally. I have told my wife that I fully expect to live to at least 120 eating this way and continuing to keep in physical shape.

Thanks for continuing to emphasis this Karl. I suspect you have positively impacted more people than you realize.
Tickerguy
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IMHO you gotta be out of your ****ing MIND to eat any other way. I've yet to find one person who actually does it and has had poor results. Some of the people who have taken it up after seeing me do it have had astonishing results.

I'm in the "astonishing" category among the general public but not among those who have made this change. Yes, I dropped roughly 60lbs with vast improvement in both physical capability and metabolics, but that pales next to a couple people I know.

This last weekend I ran into someone who I hadn't seen in maybe five years. She said "God, you've lost weight -- are you ok?"

WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE? "Are you ok??" I've got running trunks and a performance T on along with a sweatband and am about to competitively run a 5k and you're asking me if I'm ok when the last time you saw me I was a fat slob that couldn't run a quarter-mile?

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Winding it down.
Comrader
Posts: 257
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pa
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my wife is a teacher, she came home last week in a foul mood. they had a school assembly and showed a film called "what the health". its apparently a film blaming the fat problem in this country on meat,eggs and milk. she got into an arguement with all the other teachers, most are fat vegans. she says that the kids are still saying that they will never eat meat again. ****ing unbelievable!
Nadavegan
Posts: 61
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The South
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Karl to your point about "what is wrong with people"...when I let it slip to people that I often skip a day of eating per week, or don't get hungry until lunch, etc, their reaction is almost always, to a person "well THAT isn't healthy!"

To which I always want to say "you mean not eating when I am not hungry is not healthy?" And what would be their alternative? I am 43, 13% BF, 164 lbs lean mass, and can run a 20 min 5k. Yet some chubby gal, or bloated red-faced man, wants to comment on me making "unhealthy" choices? It's maddening!

There is so much crap, so much garbage, surrounding eating disorders and what healthy eating is. Somewhere in the 1990's, not eating until full 3 times per day, and then endlessly snacking in between, was stigmatized as disorderly behavior. How did we get this way?
Tickerguy
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The schools started it.

But it's ****ing EVERYWHERE right now, and my usual retort if I don't know someone who makes a comment like that QUITE well and is about the same age as I am is "I'll wager $100 right now that I get to******on your grave before you get to do it to mine, and if I win I assure you I WILL do it."

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Winding it down.
Bagbalm
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Just North of Detroit
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Given all the other lies people will believe in the face of the contradictory evidence of their own eyes, is it any wonder they will believe this dietary advice too? With all the other advances and technology over the years they've steadily become more skilled at propaganda too. If they held a marathon with the finish a lemming leap off a cliff I swear they could sell it.
Flappingeagle
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When people ask how I lost weight the first words out of my mouth are: well, you have to be willing to forget almost everything you think you know about diet and nutrition. Then I repeat that several times as I explain the diet. Once in a while I actually feel like I got through to someone. I have the most success when I talk to people who see me periodically and can thus see the difference.

When people tell me they want to lose weight but can't do without their taters or rice or bread I just tell them: well, you'll stay fat then because you can't have both.

One thing that seems to get to a lot of people is when a situation occurs where we either have to skip a meal or get that meal much later. For example, not being able to get lunch until 3 instead of noon. I've had people look at me and say: " I'm starving but you are ok because of your diet aren't you." I not only tell them yes but that I could just skip lunch now and wait till supper with no discomfort.

FWIW, occasionally skipping both breakfast and lunch and thus going 24 hours between meals seems to take off an extra 1/2 pound every time I do it.

Flap

----------
Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave the Rat Race to the rats...
Ergot
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I want to ask all of you to at least be a bit open minded about alternatives to HFLC. I was convinced about the truth of LC eating after reading Taubes initial article in the NYT (What If Its All Been a Big Fat Lie) in 2002 and then further motivated after reading his excellent book GCBC. I did 18/6 IF and was eating ~100g of carbs for about 10 years and it delivered excellent blood work and body composition. Then I started having problems. Slowly elevating Fasting Blood Glucose, from the 80s to 110+, skyrocketing BG with just about any amount of carb intake, the inability to tolerate caffeine, bouts of waking up at 2am, wired and unable to go back to sleep, deteriorating hormone levels, etc. Long term use of HFLC, at least in my case, caused major hormonal upset. My body (and yours may be different) was demanding more glucose. Adrenaline and cortisol were providing that, but at considerable cost. Diana Schwarzbein (MD Endo) describes what is going on here if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qUSvzUj.... What might be an alternative? Well, LFHC, but not refined carbs. In my case, eating a whole food plant based diet, but not going crazily low fat, because that also messes up hormone production, has produced perfect blood work, lots more energy, a good nights sleep and normalized blood sugars (80-90 FBG with hugely reduced spikes; basically I became insulin sensitive again) and better hormone levels. So, keep an eye on your BG levels and if you experience elevated post-prandial numbers or see your FBG drift up year after year whilst on LCHF, you might want to consider a change. Denise Minger, as always, has an interesting take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBBtQ4Qw.... Note: YMMV!
Drifter
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Just to chime in: I wake up at 6 AM after a 12 hour fast and have a cup of coffee with a tablespoon or two of heavy cream. I'll eat an egg at 10. A light lunch at 1, then my main meal at 6 pm.

Since I dropped most of my carbs-- I try to keep them under 20g/day-- I don't get hungry. I never, ever get the hangries, and I can go a full 24 hours with nothing but a hard boiled egg to eat before I start to feel a good strong hunger.

I'm no longer a slave to food. I've shed a ton of weight-- size 36 to 32. I feel great. I do get tired of all the fatties that say I'm 'too skinny' though. I've learned that making positive changes in weight is threatening to some of those around you. Ignore them and get new friends.
Ckaminski
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Mass-Hole!
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Quote:
"God, you've lost weight -- are you ok?"


To be fair, a number of folks go from looking soft to sharply defined and I can understand - if you just notice all of a sudden, it looks like you might be dying of cancer.

It doesn't click that you were fat, and now aren't. :-/ It's worse if you didn't have a really fat face (14 chins) to begin with.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150417
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Quote:
To be fair, a number of folks go from looking soft to sharply defined and I can understand - if you just notice all of a sudden, it looks like you might be dying of cancer.

If I was dying of cancer I sure as **** would not be geared up and about to run a road race!

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Winding it down.
Flyanddive
Posts: 2380
Incept: 2008-10-10

Detroit
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Quote:


Karl, do you know of any studies that contraindicate this as a permanent lifestyle?

Your diet is interfering with him milking you.

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"I've seen people go into real poverty trying to pretend to be rich."
Tickerguy
Posts: 150417
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A True American Patriot!
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Quote:
I want to ask all of you to at least be a bit open minded about alternatives to HFLC. I was convinced about the truth of LC eating after reading Taubes initial article in the NYT (What If Its All Been a Big Fat Lie) in 2002 and then further motivated after reading his excellent book GCBC. I did 18/6 IF and was eating ~100g of carbs for about 10 years and it delivered excellent blood work and body composition. Then I started having problems. Slowly elevating Fasting Blood Glucose, from the 80s to 110+, skyrocketing BG with just about any amount of carb intake, the inability to tolerate caffeine, bouts of waking up at 2am, wired and unable to go back to sleep, deteriorating hormone levels, etc. Long term use of HFLC, at least in my case, caused major hormonal upset.

Well, it's possible (individual susceptibility and genetics are ALWAYS an unknown on the margin) - but in GENERAL I don't believe it.

The reason isn't particularly complicated -- eating this way is pretty-much what humans ate before we had mechanization, including a most-of-the-day and many times ALL DAY fast. To the extent we ate low-glycemic carbs we did so as foragers and most of the time didn't even manage to get a positive energy balance out of it, so the benefit from doing so was non-caloric (e.g. vitamin C in green vegetables, etc.) There WEREN'T any material amount of high-glycemic carbs in existence prior to organized agriculture -- they simply didn't exist in what humans ate other than in fruits which were in-season for a short period of time in a given locale, and those in "neat" (not juiced, etc) form are typically moderate-glycemic anyway.

But, here's the problem: It's pretty easy to think you're doing HFLC and wind up with a shad-load of something ugly in the mix. This is why LABELS are extremely important, ESPECIALLY if you eat anything that comes in a box, bottle, can or similar, and for food bought prepared you're pretty much at the mercy of whoever is doing the cooking (which makes flat-out impossible trying to track those sorts of issues other than well-recognized food allergies.) I'll lay odds (very high odds in fact) that if you had a hormonal imbalance it came from something other than the protein or fat because a high-fat, low-carb diet simply isn't associated with hormonal imbalances in any of the literature I've read. Remember that while association does NOT prove causation lack of association is near-100% PROOF that causation does not exist.

However, there are a LOT of "things" that go into various foods and such that ARE associated with endocrine disruption.

So when you "switched" you probably ALSO got rid of the disrupting item, but I'll lay odds it wasn't animal fat or protein. BTW, given where you are posting from (and thus where you almost-certainly live, and thus what eating LCHF would almost-certainly entail there) I'd take 2:1 odds against me on that bet and be very comfortable that I'm right.

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Winding it down.

Dennisglover
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Huntsville, AL
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Yep, my stepbrother "dropped in" about six months ago after we hadn't seen each other for maybe three years. The last time I saw him I was a good 210 pounds with a 42-inch waist. In May I was at 140 and wearing 33-34 pants. (He was, and is, his standard 220 pounds and 40 pants.)

I opened the door and met the usual eruption: "What happened to you? Have you been sick?"

I didn't even bother trying to tell him (for the 5th or 6th time) how HFLCMP works; it would have wasted my breath and a beautiful sunny Spring day.

A couple of weeks ago I went to Red Lobster for a "late lunch" (also breakfast and dinner that day). Hadn't eaten in 20 hours or so. I ordered "a la carte" and got a house salad with Bleu cheese dressing, broiled flounder, and steamed broccoli--butter not available for the broccoli, but you can squeeze some lemon on it and it's not bad. Forewent their cheese biscuits ("FREE", don't you know).

I was almost full after the salad, but took a few bites of the fish and broccoli, then pushed the plate away. When the waiter (a rather rotund and florid fellow) passed a few minutes later he stopped, looked at my plate, and asked, "What's wrong?"

I calmly replied, "Nothing. I'm full, so I quit eating." He almost begged me to take a "go-box".

(Granted, in early April I dropped to 118 pounds but that was due to simply neglecting food for 2-3 weeks due to a rather severe bout of depression that required several sessions with a psychologist, and eating a lot of "meat and three" lunches, to get past. My weight has been in the 152-154 range for the last several weeks. Not to mention the depression has entered remission as of the end of August and, as of Monday this week--with the final divorce decree signed and recorded--I expect never to encounter that sort of mental illness again.)

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TANSTAAFL
Ergot
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Incept: 2017-11-01

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Hi Karl, dont read too much into my IP address.

Most of my LCHF days were in coastal Oregon. I helped run a Farmers Market for years and most of my animal products (pastured pork and fowl and grass-fed and finished beef, line-caught fish, farm eggs) came from local vendors. I made my own butter in a Kitchen-Aid mixer from untreated grass-fed milk that I bought under the table from a dairy farmer whose output was contracted to Organic Valley. Well, most of it anyway ;-). I dont mean to suggest I never ate any processed foods, but believe me, almost everything was made at home and I also was pretty meticulous about the carbs. My incentive was not going the path of my T2D mom.

I agree that humans come in many forms and that my experience may not mean anything for you. I can only report my N=1 data FWIW.

If anyone is interested in taking a look at their own situation, Walmart sells a cheap BG meter, the Relion Prime, with test strips that cost ~$0.25. Check your FBG and 1 and 2 hour post-prandial BG. LCHF adherents explain the slowly rising FBG with <quote> you have physiologic insulin resistance, be sure and carb-load for a couple of weeks before your physical or they will put you on Metformin due to your elevated FBG <unquote>. That is probably the case, but if you are habitually on LCHF and have any significant amount of carbs at all, ever, the hugely elevated and extended post-prandial BG response isnt pretty. As you said. And some people, me included, appear to do a lot better on glucose than ketones. Shrugs.

Anyway, good health to you all!

Kareninca
Posts: 238
Incept: 2011-08-23

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It seems alternate day fasting may help men, but not women. Actually it may harm women:

"Another diabetes risk factor that has shown a sex-specific effect is glucose tolerance. After 3 wk of ADF, women but not men had an increase in the area under the glucose curve (36). This unfavorable effect on glucose tolerance in women, accompanied by an apparent lack of an effect on insulin sensitivity, suggests that short-term ADF may be more beneficial in men than in women in reducing type 2 diabetes risk." (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/1/7....

There isn't a lot of data re the human male-female difference; this seems like a decent popular press overview: http://paleoforwomen.com/shattering-the-.... (this is my source of the studies I've linked).

Fasting, even mild fasting, definitely seems to have hormonal effects on women, if my own experience is any indication. I tried 14 hour daily fasts, and my period stopped. I thought I was going through menopause. Then I read about the possible problems of fasting for women, I quit doing daily fasts, and my period started again. The thing is, I didn't lose any weight doing those 14 hour daily fasts; I wasn't trying to cut calories - but it still had a hormonal effect. And not eating for 14 hours of each day is hardly a severe form of fasting.

There is an interesting rat study on caloric restriction, which takes into account sex difference:

"Females and males typically play different roles in survival of the species and would be expected to respond differently to food scarcity or excess. To elucidate the physiological basis of sex differences in responses to energy intake, we maintained groups of male and female rats for 6 months on diets with usual, reduced [20% and 40% caloric restriction (CR), and intermittent fasting (IF)], or elevated (high-fat/high-glucose) energy levels and measured multiple physiological variables related to reproduction, energy metabolism, and behavior. In response to 40% CR, females became emaciated, ceased cycling, underwent endocrine masculinization, exhibited a heightened stress response, increased their spontaneous activity, improved their learning and memory, and maintained elevated levels of circulating brain-derived neurotrophic factor. In contrast, males on 40% CR maintained a higher body weight than the 40% CR females and did not change their activity levels as significantly as the 40% CR females. Additionally, there was no significant change in the cognitive ability of the males on the 40% CR diet." (https://academic.oup.com/endo/article-lo....

Rats aren't humans, but there isn't much human info to work with. Still, human females and males have had different roles historically (women constantly dealing with food, scavenging and cooking) and are physically quite different; it wouldn't be surprising if they responded differently to fasting.
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