Spare Me The Outrage About DACA
The Market Ticker - Commentary on The Capital Markets
2017-09-05 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in Editorial , 1756 references Ignore this thread
Spare Me The Outrage About DACA
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Whether it comes from the left, right, CEOs (who love cheap labor damn the law to Hell) or others, just spare me the tears, ok?

I'm not swayed by the claim that the kids involved are blameless.  That doesn't matter; the fact is that they have accessed and consumed services in this nation to which they were not entitled over the previous years, and nobody is demanding that they pay the cost of said services back.

Theft by conversion is still theft.  Yes, if you have no ability to reason at the time (because you're a young child) then you cannot be held criminally liable for said theft, but the fact of the matter is that you still got the benefit and paid nothing for it.

That it was your parents that worked under the table (and thus evaded said taxes) or worse, stole someone's identity (and thus committed both a criminal act and imposed direct cost on someone else) isn't material.  You were the beneficiary of that conduct -- both directly in your home and indirectly in your access to schools, infrastructure, medical care and more that you wouldn't have had.  You've benefited greatly over these years.

What DACA supporters are attempting to argue for is that if someone's parents were successful robbers, and managed to steal $500,000 over some period of years, giving 20% of it to their kids and then got caught that the kids ought to be able to keep the loot.  This position is both morally and legally bankrupt.

May I remind you that President Obama, when he announced this program, admitted he had no legal authority to do so.  Congress could have changed the law over the intervening time, and indeed prior to that time, but did not and has not.

Speaker Ryan's mealy-mouthed nonsense is even worse, as the person who could have brought said bill to the floor of the House and hasn't done so.  He is the worst sort of hypocrite and jackass, in that he's made a nice name for himself by claiming to be for the Rule of Law -- right up until it is proposed to be enforced.

Then he turns into someone who condones said theft instead.

DACA is illegal folks.  This is not about compassion, it's about the rule of law.  If someone manages to break into a bank every day and steal $20 without being caught for years or even decades that does not change the fundamental nature of their act, nor the fact that's illegal.  Getting away with an illegal act does not make it lawful; it just means, especially when it's done openly and notoriously, that you managed to sufficiently bribe the cops.

The latter, may I remind you, is a second and more-serious offense, because corruption of the rule of law is usually considered more-serious than simply ignoring or breaking the law.

No, holding cute babies up to the camera won't change my mind.  Nor will appeals to my alleged "better side."  The fact of the matter is that our nation's immigration laws are what they are and those who intentionally broke said laws and/or profited from same must not be rewarded for doing so by giving them the ability to stay, permanent residency or even worse, citizenship.

Nope, nope and nope.  All of the DACA folks have a nation -- but it's not the United States.  They're citizens of some other country, to which they must return.  Once they've done so if they so choose they may petition to enter the United States for the purpose of residency via the established and lawful basis, and should be expected to repay, with interest, all of their previously ill-gotten gains.

If they have acquired skills and education while here then on a score-based system they'd actually have an advantage in requesting legal status -- from their nation of citizenship.

But not while here -- while here they are illegal invaders, whether they knowingly broke the law or not, whether carried by their parent(s) or wildcatting on their own.

The law either must be applied evenly or it is meaningless.  Congress neither has a right or an obligation to retroactively change these facts -- only prospectively.  The administration, for its part, has an obligation to enforce the law -- not an option to do so or not, as President Obama asserted.  That obligation stands as one of the primary pillars of our Constitution and in fact is an explicit component in the oath that the President, and those who serve in the executive or legislature where oaths are required, take before ascending to the office in question.

DACA must end and those who promote otherwise must be driven from public office and the boardrooms in which they sit.  Those firms who profit from and advocate for the intentional violation of Federal immigration law must find the firm and all responsible executives charged under said law as accessories before and after the fact and their companies must have their charters revoked and be disbanded.


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Posts: 505
Incept: 2008-04-12

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Shut down Chinese maternity tourism and eb5 visa parasites as well. The (supposedly Trump supported) Raise Act is a good start. (Aug 2017)

The RAISE Act significantly reduces legal immigration.

    *All employment based categories, including EB-5, are eliminated and replaced with a points system.
    *Applicants need 30 points or higher to immigrate to the US.
    *Investors get 6 points if they invest $1.35 million in a US new commercial enterprise.
    *Investors get 12 points if they invest $1.8 million in a US new commercial enterprise.
    *In both cases, $1.35 million or $1.8 million, investors must maintain the investment for at least 3 years.
    *In both cases, $1.35 million or $1.8 million, investors must *actively manage the commercial enterprise as their primary occupation*.
    *Eliminates Diversity Visas, currently allocated 55,000 visas per year.
Posts: 435
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Vancouver WA
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Growing up I lived in farming country, you name it, they grew it, apples, cherries, asparagus, potatoes, pretty much everything except tropical fruits.

Most of the people who worked the fields were migrant and most of the migrants were illegal. Many of the migrants/illegals had their children working in the fields with them.

The vast majority of farm laborers knew how to take advantage of the welfare system, they knew about housing subsidies, energy assistance and of course the schools that provided food and clothing for their children.

Over the years I have heard just about every justification for why we "Need" illegals and one of the biggest reasons is, they work much cheaper than white people will.


I figured out long ago, the cost of these welfare programs to feed and house the illegals cost us much more than apples at $1.99 per pound. Most of the money for the welfare programs (Especially Schools) are borrowed into existence, so not only do illegals get food and housing payed for from tax payers, the tax payer also gets to pay the ever mounting interest on the debt.

Yes we will pay more upfront for our food and some services if welfare programs to illegals were ended, but we would also have A LOT of non-illegals taking these jobs and eventually the market will/should work it's self out.

You come to the United States illegally to better yourself and your family, I get that, but when you get more off my tax dollar than what you would by simply doing your job, you are now stealing from me and my family.

Many of these programs such as DACA, do nobody any good.

End not just DACA, but all social (outside of private ones) programs that put illegals ahead of Americans.

Why can people not see this?
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East of Sheol
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I know of one jackass Mangy that hired a group of these "Mexican" migrants and he had to provide housing for them. He started to have animals (pigs mostly) start missing from his farm. He actually drove up the homes one day to find them having a bbq. Want to guess where the pork came from?

When they left they stripped the homes of electric wire and copper pipe.

Served him right in my opinion. He never hired anymore of them after that. That was in SC.

"Mass intelligence does not mean intelligent masses."
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The market is looking a little red today and, it seems those folks in south Florida should have read your disaster prep post.

We all know there is going to be hell to pay because too many things have gone on too long for it not to.


Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave the Rat Race to the rats...
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Not just the DACA "kids", but as soon as Trump took office ALL illegals should have been given six months to pack up ( or sell) their belongings and voluntarily leave the USA or face a complete confiscation of everything they own and a lifetime deportation...

Trump talked BIG, but his action has been barely acceptable...
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A True American Patriot!
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There is a very high correlation with labor surplus and the BEGINNING of a recession. Obviously, once the recession is on, labor surplus grows and deepens it.

There is the concept of "margin" in business. As our host has pointed out several times, margin compression is an early harbinger of a down cycle in business. The reasons are obvious. Businesses lack the ability to expand or reinvest. Soon, they are in survival mode, rather than growth mode.

Same concept applies to labor. If people are living hand-to-mouth, they have no margin to speak of. They get into survival mode and spending contracts. This hits businesses in the way I described in the previous paragraph.

There is a reason that the 1950s and 1960s were very prosperous and you could raise a middle class family as a high school drop out, and only working with your hands.

There is a reason that Europe didn't have any material improvement for almost 1000 years. There was a tremendous labor surplus after the fall of the Western Empire. They didn't recover until 30-40% of the population died in a very short time and cured the labor surplus. One decade after the Black Death???

Renaissance, and a centuries long expansion of European dominance.

That is going head long into a massive labor surplus caused by Third World migration.

Draw your own conclusions.

"My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism." - Karl Marx
"Destroy the family, you destroy the country." - Lenin
"Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." - Stalin
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How much in millions do these illegals owe in government backed student loans? The theft has to be huge because they will not likely pay them back........
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Vancouver WA
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Vernonb - At one point the U.S. had the "Bracero Program" that allowed Mexicans into to U.S. to fill gaps in laborers during harvest times. One of the things farmers would provide is housing, I have seen and played in some of the old houses and they were often concrete bunk houses with a shared kitchen and washing areas.

I do not know how familiar you are with farm labor, but it can be very labor intensive, so it was mostly young men who came up worked hard and were able to go back to Mexico (or wherever) with a pocket full of money. I have heard that often times these workers were able to live quite nicely in Mexico on the 3-4 months wages they earned.

The houses were nothing fancy, but if you were only passing through you did not need too much.

If I understand the oral history of the program well enuff, the young men started to get older and started to bring their wives, well the farmer wasn't going to pay for that, so states started offering housing subsidies and well one thing lead to another and pretty soon full blown welfare benefits were being given to the families. And in many cases the farmer no longer needed to provide housing for migrant workers, wages stayed suppressed, but the migrants didn't really care because each state they moved to offered them benefits and the states were able to hide the real cost in their borrowing for their budgets.

Farmers win, because they are able to keep their costs down, migrants won because they received more benefits and tax payers lost, but were too blind to see the real cost because the bill was always pushed down the road.

Of course now you have illegals coming across the boarder taking advantage of the system, and if we are going to be stupid enuff to allow this, how can you blame the people taking advantage?

DACA has allowed the "children" of illegals to jump in front of the line we should be reserving for our own children. They DACA (And other) programs give illegals more rights than American Citizens, yet we have people crying about how unfair it is to the illegals.

So Vernonb your jackass acquaintance may have lost a house and a pig, but he got off lucky as American children are losing their futures.
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Click - What you propose is good in theory, but how do you prove someone is legal or illegal?

If I get pulled over the officer has no jurisdiction to make me prove I am a U.S. citizen. I can say YOU are illegal, should you really need to show your birth certificate (Which can be faked)because I falsely accused you of something?

How do you prove a negative?

In my humble opinion it should not be the employers job to verify the authenticity of a document, what type of training does the average employer have to say a SS Card is fake or not? Why hold employers responsible for figuring out what document is real and who it belongs to. That job lies with the state and banks.

Unless you can show a valid birth certificate, your child does not go to school (Probably a good thing there) If you can not prove you are a citizen, you get no social benefits - NONE!!!! If you can not show an actual birth certificate, no drivers license. No proof of citizenship, no car loans, no home loans or any type of loan, with the possible exception of credit cards, but the bank that gave the card to someone who could not prove citizenship should eat the lose every time.

Just stop giving them our American Birthright and most of this goes away and many of the illegals who now own cars or houses will be forced to sell at a loss. And you and I will not be labeled racist as the political pressure will be were it belongs on the state.

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Yeah, with DACA, there is no longer a requirement to get over the border to have your "anchor baby". You can give birth to it anywhere, and just make sure you can get over the border any time within the next 16 years.

"If you don't have borders... if you don't have laws... you don't have a country."
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United States
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Build a wall. Kick out All illegals that are on ANY form of gov. assistance, or/and have been here less than some number of years (five?).

All the ones left can apply for citizenship and must demonstrate competency of English as a condition. Pay a fine as well.

End "Press 2 for Spanish."

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If you're paying attention it all comes back to one goal, the ClowardPiven strategy. It's all about collapsing the economic and political system in this country by over whelming the American social safety net to the point of collapse.

Just like the Obama Administration shipping guns to the Mexican cartels under the DOJ's Fast and Furious program. Create an artificial illegal gun problem on the Mexican side of the border, then blame U.S. gun dealers for all the illegal guns going over the border to Mexico, all in the name of implementing more gun control across the United States.
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Southern California
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The 'Villain' here is Congress and the Supreme Court.

Congress for failing to act and ignoring a challenge to its equal status to the Executive. Obama used an Executive Act to violate the Constitution and members of Congress knew it and ignored it.

The Supreme Court delayed as long as it could to rule on this but was forced to by various challenges to their ignoring written law. Eventually the Supremes had to via a unanimous vote admit to its error and uphold the rulings of Circuit Courts who ruled DACA unconstitutional.

So both Congress and the Courts were playing politics and ignoring the 'rule of law' until they were forced to act.

Trump is also playing politics by giving Congress 6 months to fix this. He is leading with his hart and is far from the 'Villain' he is portrayed as.

Trump is also failing to enforce the 'rule of law' which would require deportations to start now. Giving Congress 6 months to fix this is playing politics by leading with his hart.

In the meantime, we citizens have failed to require our Government to follow the 'rule of law' and thus are guilty of seeing our republic die.
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How convenient in 2014 he said DACA was unconstitutional and all of a sudden he changes his mind? A nation without borders is no longer a nation. He should be arrested and tried for treason as he blatantly disrespects the laws of this country and does not give a whim about the constitution.

Heres a video from Hannity on DACA in 2014.
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Huntsville, AL
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Ryan said, at 0:22 "...if we can get the power of the purse...".

Proof undeniable right there that Ryan was/(is?) no Constitutionalist!

The Congress has the power of the purse!

I'm tired of the fast talk and the shim-sham, people.

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East of Sheol
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So Vernonb your jackass acquaintance may have lost a house and a pig, but he got off lucky as American children are losing their futures.

No argument there Mangy. When they started doing code enforcement that's when the guy got screwed. With all the damages he couldn't meet code anymore. He was then complaining about having to provide livable housing after all the 'benefits' that were being stolen from taxpayers on his behalf. The crooks aren't just corporate or the migrants.

"Mass intelligence does not mean intelligent masses."
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So.. arresting a person for growing weed plants in their backyard is cruel and counter-productive. It undermines the values of the community.

You see what I did there?
Posts: 409
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Bremerton, WA
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Immigration is what got Trump elected. If he does not deliver, he will be gone, and someone far less polite will take his place.

This all started with the 1965 Immigration Act. After the revelation of the Soviet Union atrocities, and the consequent collapse of any platform to run on, the Democratic party changed where immigration was sourced from. Before it was primarily from European nations, where their and our culture were largely similar. After 1965, immigration has been almost exclusively from 3rd world countries. Countries with a distinctly leftist culture.

In effect, post 1965 Immigration policy has largely been the importation of new Democratic voters. This is why Democrats resist any changes to the current status quo. This is also why the GOPe resists any changes, because their Chamber of Commerce corporate masters want the wide open tap of cheap labor to continue.

Trump voters know what is going on, they see it with their own eyes, and they have been screaming for someone, anyone to turn off the spigot and send those here already home. The GOP has been stringing them along, but not really doing anything, while the DNC has been doing everything they can to open the floodgates wider.

They all have to go back.
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Who the hell is Ryan? I think we could get a better Congress out of the typical prison. At least we would go in knowing they were criminals, instead of Slick Willies.

One thing for certain. It is time we slammed the door on Mexico. Nothing against Mexicans, but it is time for the people of the United States to realize a few things. The average public school student doesn't belong in college. They need a job, a low skilled job to start. Mexicans are taking those jobs and it isn't necessarily because others won't do them. The next step up the ladder is residential construction, which used to pay a living wage in good times, until the flood of cheap labor came in. They haven't quit raising the price of new construction, though the average cost of building materials isn't that much higher than years ago. The price paid for residential subcontracting isn't much higher than it was in 1980, so I was told a couple of years ago by a man who now does solely commercial. The sales jobs are being taken out by internet and downsizing, which was the other link to a hustling high school grad getting ahead.

Second, people that work for a living pay for everything. Corporations pay excise taxes, which are included in the price of the goods they sell. They pay nothing their customers don't give them. Federal spending is $30K per private sector job. Government jobs are paid out of this pool of funds and at best you can net the taxes out of them. Paying people not to work isn't a long term solution to anything but getting to insolvency. Paying for college for people that didn't or barely master math and other important subjects isn't the solution. They either take bull**** courses, end up in government jobs or in a job that they didn't need the education to begin. Unfortunately, there are very few really smart people, so there is a number you have to put in and hope they can master something. I spent 3 years in a dorm at Texas A&M and had first hand knowledge. I was the worst student ever, yet most of those in my class, which I was a half year behind were there when I got there and still there when I got out. The universities are being run by Communists, as it is.

I don't know that I would support going to all of these people and saying, get out. But, I don't think any of them just flat deserve being here. There are plenty of American children need a future to open the doors to every third world baby. The term racist is always raised, but in reality, we are talking dependent, rather than racist. Looking around the world, the white race has done pretty well, as it seems not many people want to go where they aren't the majority. Seems a lot of Africans are making it here along with Muslims, but I don't get the feeling white Christians are welcome in either Africa or the middle east. That isn't the topic, more unskilled dependent bodies coming into the country is.

Trump proposed immigration that could speak English. There are plenty of Indians that can speak English, yet this was met with the racist claim. He wanted people that could come get a job that wasn't an unskilled job. Gaining educated people for free is a benefit. Taking someone who can't read an application or converse with the majority of people in most of the country is a liability. Then paying their health, housing and food bills puts the burden on others, many of whom are struggling to make ends meet.

I can blame Obama, but the real blame is Congress. I'm to the point that the United States might need to be dissolved to save the United States. I see these people, many of them bid up in stature. The Junior Senator from California has me scratching my head, as she seems as dumb as a box of rocks. You could find a better representative, merely picking from a 100 people in an upper middle class restaurant. 35 million people can't find someone better than that? I could go on. Ryan and McConnell beat hell of all I have seen. Both liars.

I have decided government is a system that finds problems, takes them over and makes them into tragedies. There is nothing government touches save for what they absolutely have to do that I have not seen get progressively worse. It is the only place you can go with a scratch on your arm and bleed to death by the time they are finished with their treatment, guaranteed.

The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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The Junior Senator from California has me scratching my head, as she seems as dumb as a box of rocks.

Working from recollection (and a recent post from Naked Capitalism), Senator Kamala Harris was instrumental in short-circuiting attempts by the states to reign in banks after Congress/Obama/McCain punted during/immediately after the 2008 cycle. There's nothing stupid about her...

It's not an issue of "cooperation" vs "go it alone": it's a question of involuntary vs voluntary relationships.
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