Grand Juries, Mueller, And Trump
The Market Ticker - Commentary on The Capital Markets
2017-08-03 15:47 by Karl Denninger
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Grand Juries, Mueller, And Trump
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If you're Donald Trump that Mueller has reportedly convened a Grand Jury in his probe won't keep you up at night.  It is pretty-well settled that the DOJ cannot indict a sitting President.

However, if you're anyone other than Trump and have either assisted him in the election process, in the transition or afterward and have had any sort of contact, directly or indirectly, with anyone Russian or for that matter anything else that might be construed to be a problem you won't be sleeping well for quite some time.

Nobody else is immune from indictment while Trump is in office -- not his kids, not his wife, nobody.

The opportunity to fire Mueller, which I think there's a pretty clear argument for based on the appearance of conflict of interest, just expired. Firing him now may not get Trump impeached but it will destroy any ability for him to get one vote from a Democrat and a sizable number of Republicans for anything he wants for the remainder of his term.

Oh, and Trump can be indicted on the day he leaves office -- so the fact that he can't be indicted while President is no protection -- it's only a deferral.  Theoretically the proceedings and votes of a Grand Jury are secret.  In truth given how badly so-called "secret" things leak these days I expect that "secrecy" to last all about 30 seconds.

Mueller thinks he has something worthy of presentment to the Grand Jury or he wouldn't do this.  I have no idea what it is, but whatever it is he's reasonably certain he can get at least one indictment out of it -- and probably more than one.  Remember that a Grand Jury only hears one side of the case -- the prosecution's side.  There is no right to be heard or defend yourself before a Grand Jury; that comes later after you get indicted.

This is going to get ugly.

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User Info Grand Juries, Mueller, And Trump in forum [Market-Ticker]
Flyanddive
Posts: 2218
Incept: 2008-10-10

Detroit
Online
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My thinking, is that the fake amateur C2 malware attack on the DNC, will be tied to some of Trump's Russian associates. My guess would be, is those Russian associates bought some of Trump's real estate after they tried to pull their money out of Greece.

This is a total nothingbuger to anyone with intelligence, i.e. 1% of the American population; Thus Trump is ****ed. It's his own fault though, he had 100 days to get it under control, and he couldn't do it. He surrounded himself with traitors who bailed after that 100days were up.

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"I've seen people go into real poverty trying to pretend to be rich."
Tickerguy
Posts: 149426
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Sounds like they're going after Trump Jr. He's in deep ****.

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Winding it down.
Quik49
Posts: 3954
Incept: 2007-12-11

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smiley

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Long Vaseline....

Lenguado
Posts: 2057
Incept: 2010-01-12
A True American Patriot!
Orlando, FL
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Quote:
Mueller thinks he has something worthy of presentment to the Grand Jury or he wouldn't do this.

Well, he could be doing it for political reasons to drive a narrative that Trump's opposition (Progressive Repugs, Democrats, Media, etc - but I repeat myself . . . .) can use as a bludgeon against him for the next year +.

Don't need any indictments for the Media and Sunday Morning Talking Heads to go on and on and on ad nauseum, using your exact point quoted above. In the media and Twitterverse, empaneling a Grand Jury will be played as the exact same thing as a guilty verdict.

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I just realized... they aren't saying, "Keynesian Economics"
they're saying "Kenyansian Economics". Grass Huts for everyone!
smiley
Welcome to historys first Double Dip Depression
Tickerguy
Posts: 149426
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Yeah this will be all sorts of fun.....

They ought to be going after Hitlery and damn near everyone around her; Uranium One anybody?

But... nope. The problem here is that if they start indicting people then Trump has a nasty choice. If he pardons any of them up front he's basically destroyed any ability to get anything done. If he doesn't his kid may go to prison, and in the meantime the resulting proceedings will be all over the news for the next three years.

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Winding it down.

Quik49
Posts: 3954
Incept: 2007-12-11

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He totally blew his presidency....he could have been kicking ass and takin names out of the gate, but all he did was **** around acting like he was doing such. He can't tweet his way out of this one.... Guess we get some good entertainment while we all go down the ****ter.... off to the sporting goods store....

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Long Vaseline....

Geckogm
Posts: 4269
Incept: 2007-06-26

Canyon Lake
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And new headlines of more Mega leaking.

I seem to remember a reporter going to jail until they revealed their source. It was many moons ago and I cant remember why but how is it that these leaks keep happening and the WAPO is always connected.
Misterbusy
Posts: 3
Incept: 2014-01-08

DFW
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I wouldn't put it past him to pardon everyone he cares about and resign at this point.... "I'm taking my ball and going home!". Perhaps he could raise some hell first.
Reluctantdebtor
Posts: 287
Incept: 2010-03-05

ohio
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It appears the intention is to rattle Trump so hard he'll be even less focused than he already has been, and he may possibly be pushed into resigning or stroking out. It sometimes seems the only person for whom he has genuine feeling is Princess Ivanka. If it turns out she is in legal jeopardy, Trump may become amenable to any behaviors suggested as a trade for leniency. He doesn't seem quite so fond of his two older boys, and his wife seems nothing more than a prop who hates him, so who knows if threatening them will nudge Trump in any direction.

Those of us who've intensely disliked Trump for decades before there was even a chance of him becoming president will be paying close attention. The insidious Koch-chosen Dominionist Pence will need to be dealt with next, unless he can be ensnared in one of the matters that brings down Trump.
Tickerguy
Posts: 149426
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Quote:
It appears the intention is to rattle Trump so hard he'll be even less focused than he already has been, and he may possibly be pushed into resigning or stroking out.

That's beyond silly -- Trump has dealt with high-pressure situations his entire professional life.

If that's the plan then it'll be a big fat fail.

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Winding it down.
Jfms99
Posts: 203
Incept: 2009-10-06

Msumelle, Ar
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Mueller can get a Grand Jury to do anything, just like most prosecutors.
The real question is just what is he going to get indictments for?
As far as I can tell no laws were broken in this Russia mess.
So what we will be getting is a show Trial.
Mueller has hired, at last count, at least 16 lawyers, all of whom are Democrats and donors to the DNC, and Hillary. So the whole investigation is Biased and wrong from day one.

Mueller is just another inside the beltway crook.
Flaps10
Posts: 6680
Incept: 2008-10-17

PNW
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Too bad Vince Foster isn't available for comment.
Gable
Posts: 725
Incept: 2009-07-04

Retired in NC Mountains
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My neighbor hates Trump. I keep reminding him not to worry because Trump will not be able to get anything done. He has the totally corrupt Dems, MSM, GOPe (which is 99% of Repubs), every special interest group, the deep state, academia and every government worker are against him.

As Karl has pointed out the monetary math clearly shows what has been going on can not continue and it appears it will break bad while Trump is still in office. He will get the blame for everything that goes wrong.

He will be lucky if he and his family are not all put in jail or worse.




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In all of history, no government became more honest, less corrupt, or respected its citizens' rights more as it grew in size. E.L. 2016
Aztrader
Posts: 7806
Incept: 2007-09-10

Scottsdale, AZ
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Time for Trump to start investigating anyone on the other side instigating this. Every DNC crook that owes back taxes can be the first targets. Time to leave some blood stains on the DNC and make it hurt...............
Tdurden
Posts: 537
Incept: 2015-01-29

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I say screw it and fire mueller anyway. Fire him, ALL senior leadership at all 19 spy agencies since they have all been either breaking the law with the leaks or looking the other way. Fire any and all obama holdovers. I'd be firing enough people to raise the unemployment rate by a full percentage point.

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"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next 10 generations that some favors come with too high of a price." -Vir Cotto Babylon 5
Sandor
Posts: 1983
Incept: 2007-08-08

Marathon,Fl
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I.Will.Never.Vote.Again
Nonsensical
Posts: 111
Incept: 2017-06-16

Los Angeles, Ca
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Appointing Mueller really painted Trump in a corner, while at the same time the Republican congress didn't have to look overly aggressive if nothing panned out. Trump then had to hire private lawyers (to preserve attorney-client privilege for starters).

Trump could've fired him, but then likely this would've forced the GOP to get really aggressive because likely public opinion turns bad. Especially Paul Ryan who's looking weaker and weaker as he hasn't been able to attach his name to anything significant, whether that legislation would be good or bad in the long run is a different story (and he has a lost presidential race on his record, albeit as VP, but still).

So, if Trump fired Mueller does this ramp up public opinion against Trump, and if so it makes him a big target. Could Ryan get the votes for impeachment? Would he have tried? Obviously we'll never know, but if it got to that point he would've probably considered it. He's only in his late 40s, so hes got a lot of career left.

McConnell is old, so he's probably just looking to cash out. Ryan is probably the wild card, depending on how much pull he has. If Pence gets somehow mixed in, Ryan could conceivably impeach his way into the White House (assuming the Senate removes).

If nothing untoward can be shown, then the conflict of interest would benefit Trump.

And by appointing Mueller, the GOP was able to avoid playing hardball....for now.

The sad thing, Trump was probably still the best candidate. The Clinton's have done enough damage, so we don't need more of them. Sanders and Trump pretty much had the same assessments of the problems but radically different solutions.

The problem with Sanders was he was never clear on any of his solutions, but more importantly: Sanders as a progressive has it all backwards. You have to clean up the corruption first before enacting progressive programs (or else the programs are just simply captured by the corrupt entities). The moment progressivism stops carrying a big stick against corruption it's finished (and it, like all ideaologies have its ebb and flows). So any progressives reading this: fight and end corruption, that should be the only platform for right now. Corruption will never be ended, but contained within something manageable for society. Once you beat back corruption, even conservatives will be more willing to listen to progressive programs.

And for all of Trump's craziness he did have reasonable solutions, of course, what someone runs on and eventually does is rarely the same.

A further problem Trump's problems are causing is among people. Because if you were a Trump supporter but have since turned, the other side is only taking the attitude of: see, I told you so. But that's not only not constructive, but if still fails to look at what were the options? No one has a crystal ball.

The last three Presidents have been perceived as outsiders: Bush Jr, Obama, and now Trump. So there's a least a notion in the general population that the status quo is rotten....now, when do we realize electing people alone isn't enough.

We don't need politicians. Politicians are the tail, not the dog. They don't enact change or upset the status quo because they've became successful under the status quo.

Back in 2002/3 when California had an energy crisis and Enron bent California over the table while then Governor Gray Davis sat there and burned away a $10 billion surplus before declaring a state emergency I signed the petition for his recall. From then on, I sign all recalls of politicians. Obviously enough people think you should go, then defend your record.

If they ultimately impeach Trump I can't say I'll at all feel bad for him since it doesn't look like he intents to keep his campaign promises, or well, I'm not sure what he's doing.

My only question is, why stop at Trump? Ryan, McConnell, Schumer, Pelosi....

It's getting to the point that if a recall is put before me I won't even bother reading who or the reasons why, I'll just sign, it simply being a recall being sufficient.

What a mess.
Gable
Posts: 725
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Retired in NC Mountains
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Quote:
I.Will.Never.Vote.Again


Ditto for me.

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In all of history, no government became more honest, less corrupt, or respected its citizens' rights more as it grew in size. E.L. 2016
Sandyinflorida
Posts: 87
Incept: 2015-08-12

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if Mueller is smart he isn't going to do much except wrap this up.

He has a lot of his own baggage, and the president has a lot of resources at his disposal.

I think Mueller knows that.
Supertruckertom
Posts: 1368
Incept: 2010-11-07

USA
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You vote every day with your wallet.


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Preparing to go Hunting.
Supertruckertom
Posts: 1368
Incept: 2010-11-07

USA
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More Martha Stewart type of process crimes.
Never talk to investigators or police of any kind.
No Comment to reporters.

Just follow through on policy.

People that like to hear themselves talk publicly will eventually regret it more than people that have powerful private whispers.




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Preparing to go Hunting.
Woeisme
Posts: 351
Incept: 2007-12-12

Newport Beach, Cali
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Heard a rumor Mueller is Trumps guy. Mueller was trapped, doing dirt with the Clinton's. Trump pardoned him and Mueller has actually been working on nailing the Clinton's and their ilk.

Could this be at all possible?


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...I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.
Nonsensical
Posts: 111
Incept: 2017-06-16

Los Angeles, Ca
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Mueller PURPOSELY put known Democrats on his investigative staff. He never made a secret about it, and likely there was pressure for him to make it primarily Democrats.

Mueller has never hidden this fact. In terms of this investigation, the leadership of both parties are looking to spin whatever happens in their favor.

Of course Mueller takes the job, it's puts him back in action, but also, yes, Trump has riled the FBI.

So the witch hunt idea just seems silly. The Democrats aren't so stupid to not know that there's an obvious built in bias by stacking Dems in the investigation.

The conflict of interest is Muller's connection to the FBI and that the FBI and Trump are obviously in conflict.

But stacking Mueller's investigation with Dems more than likely benefits the GOP. If Trump is cleared, then obviously the GOP will claim then he must be innocent because the investigators were incentivized being Dems.

If something turns up, then the GOP will look at what comes out of it, public reaction, and so on, and then decided if they need to press Trump or come to his defense and claim it was a biased investigation because it was stacked with Dems and they didn't interfere because they trusted the integrity of the investigators, and so on and so on.

There's not much the Dems could really do, besides some backroom dealing. So of course they'll accept it being stacked with Dems, and hope something comes out of it.

It's obvious the GOP are driving things, they just don't know where yet until things begin to pan out. They're just not sure whether to keep Trump or dump him, and what it will cost them...but they're definitely weighing it.

But even with these games going on, a witch hunt it's not. Trump has invited this upon himself, or he didn't help the situation.

It was suspected that Trump may have growing pains in dealing with people who don't go along with you, and they themselves wield some power. Obama never dealt well with it. It's frustrating of course when you can't get important things done, but it's just as silly to think everything you want the fate of the world is at stake.

They don't need criminal wrong doing for impeachment and removal, they can do it based on not liking your face (albeit, it may not get the votes). It's a congressional check on the executive power.

But would it be such a bad thing to impeach and remove president? At this stage of executive power consolidation. The executive power has been consolidating for quite some time.

The progressives sat on their hands during Obama's presidency over looking the fact he was ordering assassinations, which they should be ashamed of themselves. I don't know if this is the right congressional body, but would it be such a bad thing to see some power swing back into the legislative branch? God knows the legislative branch has been a house of wimps for some time.

And if it works out that way, the legislative branch will wield power until they start to go too far and then the executive branch begins to take some power back.

Typical DC games of trying to play all the angles and not really about doing the right thing, it's definitely that; but a witch hunt it isn't.

And it's likely Mueller is NOT going to fall on his sword for this, either. He'll make the fight if he thinks he can win it, either legally or publicly. And as crazy as this thing has gotten, public opinion is probably out weighing technical legal considerations concerning survivability.

Reason: incorrect word usage
Travanx
Posts: 4009
Incept: 2007-11-07

Near Downtown Los Angeleez, Killafornia
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If Seth Rich turns out to be the DNC wikileaks leaker. That wikileaks tweet with the reporter audio is eye opening to this.

What else would they be going after with Trump? Crowdstrike report was completely silly. Russian IP pinging a Trump email spam server was silly. Buzzfeed pee story was 4chan fan fiction. Trump Jr. talked to Fusion GPS lawyer. What am I missing here that Trump is doing something with the Russians?

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Ow my balls!
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