JAMA (Accidentally) Exposes The Truth About Medicine
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2013-02-18 15:25
by Karl Denninger
in Health Reform
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JAMA (Accidentally) Exposes The Truth About Medicine
 

In an article published on the 11th JAMA appears to have accidentally pulled the curtain back on what I've been talking about for quite some time -- but with the credibility that comes from the primary organ of the American Medical Establishment.

The intent of the article was to discover if they could obtain "up front" and transparent, all-inclusive pricing for a rather common surgical procedure -- prosthetic hip replacement, which is known by its medical name total hip arthroplasty.

They contacted the 20 top-rated orthopedic hospitals in the US along with two random ones in each state, a sample of 120 hospitals.  They then attempted to obtain pricing for this elective procedure, using a standardized script stating that the patient was a 62-year old grandmother.  Each hospital got 5 bites at the apple to provide a complete price.

Only 45% of the top-ranked hospitals and 10% of those randomly selected were able to provide such a price after five attempts each

Worse, the range of the procedure in cost was from $11,100 to $125,798, with top-ranked hospitals neither being the low or high bids, but having representation near the endpoints of both (12,500 and 105,000.)

Now this is where the rubber hits the road, however, and where the debate must be centered if we are ever to resolve the medical cost problems we have today.

This particular procedure is one that is reasonably common among older Americans.  Many who require it need to have it done in no small part because of personal lifestyle choice -- specifically, they are and have been fat for a long time, and the extra mass they're carrying around increases stress in these joints.  This may be politically incorrect to point out, but it is also the truth.

However, at the lower end of this cost scale most Seniors can afford to pay for the procedure out of their pockets.  At the higher end of the scale few can.

The higher end only exists because of cost-shifting.

Nobody would pay 10x as much for a procedure if they knew in advance what it would cost, and had the other alternatives available to them, unless they were convinced that the quality was dramatically superior.  But since some of the top-rated hospitals were in fact at the bottom in cost, there is no argument that can be raised that price is related to quality.

I recently asked if my readers could afford to pay cash for their medical expenses if they were 1/5th of today's price.  Now you see why I asked -- they are available for 1/5th of today's median price, right now, right here, today - and I'm not talking about just "routine" office visits either.

This procedure is major if rather-common surgery!

The vast majority (95%) said yes.  Some "Yes" responses qualified those answers to include only "routine" procedures.  But I'm willing to bet that most people could manage to come up with $10 grand for a procedure like this, if they had to.  They might not like what they have to do in order to accomplish it, but they are unlikely to be bankrupted by $10,000.

Those who argue that they would be also couldn't buy a reasonable used car, say much less a new one.  And remember, that you pay cash doesn't mean you have the cash -- it just means you can access it (people do this all the time when they buy cars, roofs for their house and similar.)

Indeed, such a procedure is not all that different in price than that for something like a new furnace, or a roof.  Yes, it's more money, but not that much more money.  And it's not much more, if any at all more, than a decent used car.  Yet we don't expect other people -- or the government -- to buy our furnace, our roof or our car.

So why does it happen with medical care?

That's simple -- we have allowed a system to form that outright swindles us when it comes to medical care.  At $100,000+ for a procedure that we can have for $10,000, nobody would buy -- unless they had no knowledge of the $10,000 procedure, or of how much the $100,000 one would cost until after the surgery was done and it was too late to negotiate.

In any other sort of business this sort of price obfuscation and game-playing would either put the provider out of business or lead to criminal racketeering prosecution.  But it doesn't here, because we have all been "conditioned" to allow it, including most-especially our elected representatives who have written into the law exemptions and dodges.

In the real world when I provided services I was expected to post my prices and when bought in bulk I was expected to competitively bid for those contracts.  If I screwed someone to the tune of 10x the price after the fact, and made it difficult or impossible for the customer to figure out what he was going to pay until after the fact, I would have either been run out of town or prosecuted and thrown in prison for criminal conspiracy, racketeering and fraud.

Our problem with the medical system is not one of Medicare or Medicaid.  It rests here, in the foundation, where we first put in place a cost-shifting system that allows medical providers to pull this sort of crap without immediately going out of business or winding up in prison.

This would just be an awful scam but it is in fact far worse, because the price growth that this system has engendered as these greedy jackasses continue to escalate their price demands, all under cover of darkness and backed with the gun of government to force you to pay for those who have no money and thus care not what the bill is have driven Federal Medical spending alone from $53 billion in 1980 to over $850 billion in 2011, a 9% compounded rate of increase.

And while last year the CBO says this spending has abated somewhat, that's a short-term dislocation caused by the game-playing surrounding Obamacare -- and it won't last.  We already have reports of 100% premium increases being filed for this year and next among private plans, wiping up any supposed "relaxing" of the cost curve from last year and in fact accelerating what is a highway straight to fiscal Hell.

There is no point in being involved in a political party or with any political body, representative or other person in the political context unless the largest component of what they are addressing, not with words but deeds, is the complete and immediate dismantling of this edifice.

It is a waste of your time to be involved otherwise, as the outcome will not matter if this is not addressed.  Both government and private industry will see their funding models and capacity to pay collapse within the decade unless this is halted right here, right now, today.

It's that simple folks.

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User Info JAMA (Accidentally) Exposes The Truth About Medicine in forum [Market-Ticker]
Lowbeyond
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http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/02/17/in....

vid at link as well

Quote:
Insider Reveals Secrets Of Hospital Billing
February 17, 2013 10:00 PM

DENVER (CBS4) – Major hospitals hardly ever collect the full amount they bill patients and don’t expect to, according to a sworn statement from a top administrator at a suburban Denver hospital.

“I mean we don’t expect to be paid full charges,” said Craig Sammons, the Chief Financial Officer at Sky Ridge medical center in Lone Tree, a HealthOne hospital.

The admissions came in a 2007 deposition of Sammons conducted in a lawsuit over medical charges. CBS4 obtained a copy of the 56 page deposition.

The hospital CFO provided unvarnished answers to questions about hospital billing practices and charges in what he said was the first time he had ever been deposed.

The attorney who conducted the deposition of Sammons, Stuart Morse, told CBS4 he believes the deposition should serve as a lesson to consumers about how to view their hospital bills.

”It’s an incredibly important thing for the public to know,” said Morse, who says after he conducted the deposition an attorney from HealthOne approached him about sealing the deposition.

“I couldn’t in good conscience say I won’t use this because it helps people to have this information,” he said.

Morse said he believes the deposition shows “their prices are so incredibly inflated such that they don’t expect anyone to pay them.”

During the deposition, Sammons was asked why the hospital is willing to accept only a fraction of what it bills.

“Well we sign agreements with various providers or insurance companies and each agreement is based on what that company has in terms of membership and volume they can bring to their facility,” explained Sammons. “It’s (the amount the hospital agrees to accept) based on pretty much what … that insurance company has enrolled in terms of membership and that’s why we would accept less charges.”

Sammons said only about 3 percent to 4 percent of the hospital’s patients pay the full amount that is shown on their final bills. He said the “target reimbursement rate” from one major insurance carrier is 25 percent.

The hospital administrator acknowledged that even when accepting far less than full price, the hospital is still profitable.

“We look at what we need to be paid to be profitable as opposed to what do we get to charge to be profitable,” he said.

As for patients who do not have medical insurance and are considered “self pay,” Sammons said the hospital never expects full payment.

“We offer immediately a 50 percent discount to our self pay patients … patients without insurance we offer 50 percent as a discount off of charges.”


Asked why the hospital offers such a discount for its services, Sammons responded, “to put them on a fairly even playing field with what we expect from various payers. Again, based on trying to put the uninsured on an even playing field with the insured population.”

Sammons was asked if the hospital would take even less than 50 percent from an uninsured patient.

“It does happen at times, yes,” he said.

Attorney Morse said of the testimony: “They’re so unabashed about the fact that their prices are incredibly inflated such that they don’t expect anyone to pay them. These bills are not sacrosanct, they’re not something they have to pay, but it’s a bill that is absolutely negotiable.”

“The numbers charged in the health industry are completely fictional,” Morse said. “And people need to pay attention to what they are being asked to pay and negotiate.”

During the deposition, Sammons said his hospital charged patients $69 per minute of emergency room time and marked up prices for some medical supplies at a rate of 3 1/2 times what they cost the hospital. He was asked how the hospital decided on its pricing.

“It’s based on historical pricing,” he responded. “When Sky Ridge Medical Center was opened in August of 2003, we took the pricing of one of our existing facilities — and that facility was Aurora Medical Center — and so we copied their entire charge master.”

Linda Watson, a spokesperson for Sky Ridge Medical Center, said the hospital would not provide further comment on the insider information revealed by Sammons.

“Since Craig was deposed and his comments are public, we are not sure that there is much more to add,” said Watson.

Attorney Morse questions why consumers are given inflated bills and are not told the true cost of the medical services they receive.

“Why go out of your way to give a bill that gives a heart attack when you don’t expect to be paid that amount?” he asked.

You can read the entire deposition of the Craig Sammons, the Sky Ridge CFO here. The name of the patient and other identifying information was redacted by his attorney.


deposition pdf
http://cbsdenver.files.wordpress.com/201....

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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!

Djloche
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smiley paying 10x as much as the guy next to you is insane

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Sean
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This is the topic IMO that Karl's two cryptic tickers are about.

Sean

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Noodleman
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What a fine Ticker. One of best and easily understood one I've seen on the health care crisis in America.

Karl is one of the few who doesn't **** around. He goes right to the meat of the matter and takes a man-sized bite. Honestly, I am not aware of any other internet author who has the ability to cut through the bull**** so efficiently and effectively. Looking for a writer like Karl in the mainstream media would be like searching for a koolaide stand in the middle of the Mojave.

The average American is really so so stupid and naive. To such an extent, it even embarrasses me as a lifelong American, born and raised on corn, potatoes and meat. And I am speaking relative to other industrialized nations. Those who have traveled understand this. In other educated societies many know more about the history of our nation than 75% of our own citizens. No exaggeration.

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Hstella
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Low: The CFO is actually trying to be helpful. Making sure that self-pay patients get an immediate 50% reduction (without making them haggle or prove financial distress for it) actually is very decent. I'm sure that the hospital administration will make life difficult for him once they find out about it. Part of their problem is that one of the major insurance companies has to be wrangled to pay even 25%. Insurance companies create an astounding waste of resources, as you have to have staff hired to file all the paperwork, copy and transfer the xrays, and deal with all the denials. Several insurance companies dismiss claims out of hand and require doctors to write appeal letters for every little thing. The insurance companies call the shots, and then the billing system gets screwed up twisting around the insurance companies to force their reimbursement.
Reluctantdebtor
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Great article and blog post.

It avoids mentioning the tax implications, though, which can be a ruinous surprise in the case of inflated "forgiven" amounts. If the medical bill is initially padded to 400% of the actual worth of services, and a 25% "settlement" is offered, the gift to the IRS+state is more than the initial bill should have been anyway. $250 worth of services billed at $1000 and "settled" for $250 leaves the patient having paid $250 for the services and owing roughly $300 in state and federal income tax.

Is this deliberate stealth theft?
Lowbeyond
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oh yes Hstella, i agree he is trying to be helpful.

as for health insurance...get rid of the pre-paid medical system in the US, dead weight will be cut, and prices will fall.

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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!

Ponzi_unit
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Here's a thorn: seems to me if you have insurance that only pays a PARTIAL amount, as a consumer your insurance company has no concern for what price the consumer pays as they are only covering up to the deductible. Consumer thinks he's got a deal because he's 'partially covered' but he's really getting screwed. What a racket!

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Keenan
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He (Sammons) said the “target reimbursement rate” from one major insurance carrier is 25 percent.

So, after deductible, the typical health insurance policy pays, say 80% of the inflated-just-for-show bill. But if the real charges are negotiated down to 25% of those on the just-for-show-statement, does the policy holder actually benefit from that negotiation, or does he end up paying the majority of the actual charges ?
Ponzi_unit
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Pay more in the long run if I'm getting this. Must feed the beast!

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Godisanhftbot
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Once again, you make altogether too much sense. How all this isn't obvious to the legislators and Attorney Generals is beyond me.

Some perp walks for those charging 100k would be a good start.
Cetera
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Wyoming
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Keenan,

Your deductible calculations and patient balances are calculated by the insurance company on your explanation of benefits, not by the hospital. If the hospital charges you $100k, and your insurance says the amount allowed is $20k, then they will apply that $20k to your remaining deductible, cover the percentage over the deductible, and then you pay the 20% or whatever that remains after the deductible.

Whatever the hospital bills you for is entirely irrelevant if you have insurance, especially if they are in-network or a preferred provider, etc.

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Analog
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You'll see this when you get on Medicare.
The statements show the hospital accepts perhaps 30% of what is billed.

Now - what is this rumor about IRS wanting to collect tax on 'forgiven debt' - if you go in and negotiate,

do you get a 1099 and a bill from IRS?

That'd make IRS accomplices to attempted robbery,, IMHO.
Keenan
Posts: 30
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Western PA
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Cetera:

Thanks for the reply.

Perhaps my question wasn't clear. Say the deductible has already been met and I have a procedure that generates that $100K bill, which I turn over to the insurance company for payment. On an 80:20 policy, I pay 20K regardless of what the hospital agrees to accept from the ins co ? If they settle for less, then am I not actually paying a bigger percentage of the whole actual hospital charge ?
Clintb350
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Have heard that the Hospital gets to deduct the difference between the bill amount and the negotiated amount from their income taxes (as a business loss). True?
Reluctantdebtor
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Re:
"Now - what is this rumor about IRS wanting to collect tax on 'forgiven debt' - if you go in and negotiate,
do you get a 1099 and a bill from IRS?"
-------------------------------

This is the case. It's not a rumor.
I can reach to the drawer on my left and lay hands on just such a collection of documents that painfully prove it. 1099-M, IIRC.

The reporting cutoff is either $500 or $600. Given typically huge medical bills, that low cutoff amount means your forgiven bill WILL be reported to the IRS and you will owe tax. It happened to me.

That caused me to re-think "settlements" forever. Now I don't pay at all. The situation SUCKS. It ain't easy. Whatever solution works for medical care and billing will be vastly different from today's system.

Keep in mind: The hospital gets a tax deduction for the fraudulent "forgiven" amount.

The situation:
Hospital bills too much.
"Forgives" most of that amount and gets a REAL tax deduction for fake "forgiveness".
Gets paid its costs + profit anyway.
Government claims taxes due on fake overcharged amount forgiven.
End result: Hospital has stolen, and assisted government in stealing from taxpayers.

I would rather the theft be more directly presented. This ****'s hard to follow.
Mdm
Posts: 332
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South Florida
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Quote:
That caused me to re-think "settlements" forever. Now I don't pay at all.


The problem with that is the hospital will eventually write off the debt and you will get a 1099 for the entire amount including any interest and late fees they tacked onto it. The tax man will come knocking regardless.
Clintb350
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I don't think a 1099 to the patient happens if they have insurance co agreed fee, but does the hospital still get a business loss deduction?
Reluctantdebtor
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Hasn't happened to me yet. Megabucks delinquencies goin' back a ways. The only times I was dinged with IRS paper was when I tried to pay a little. It would be nice for doctors to get paid when they do valuable work, even if the amount paid is less than the full bill. However, incurring a tax debt on top of that token of gratitude makes it way too onerously stinky. Not cool.
Grumpygirl
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The veterinary practice I take my cat to is able to maintain a price list and stick to it. When I make the appointment, the scheduler reminds me of the price for the office visit, as well as any services I am asking for or routine things the cat is due to receive. Once the vet has completed the exam, we then talk about what she would like to do, what the options are, and the prices. She pulls the prices up on the computer screen and can quote me a total. When blood work results come back, she sends them by email and we communicate. Every procedure the vet recommends due to the results is listed in the email along with the cost. The practice lists nearly all the procedures and current costs on their website. This does not seem like it's difficult for them to do.
Examples:
http://www.mttaborvetcare.com/WellnessCa....
http://www.mttaborvetcare.com/prices.htm....
http://www.mttaborvetcare.com/dental.htm....

Incidentally, this practice provides very high quality care - the best veterinarians I have ever taken a pet to. IMO, their care is on par with human medicine. We are gearing up for a major medical procedure for my cat. I'm going to have to make a 4 hour drive to a specialist & leave her for a few days, then come back to get her. I have also been quoted a flat price for the procedure that includes all the medical stuff plus the boarding. The specialist also has a guarantee that if the procedure doesn't work, they will re-do it for free provided I keep up with the follow-up blood work. Have you ever heard of a physician of human beings that would give that kind of guarantee?

Seriously, if a good veterinarian can give you cost estimates, I see no reason why a human physician can't.
Mortgageguymn
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It should be illegal to charge disparate fees based upon the method of payment (cash vs insurance). The price should be the price. That would fix 80% of the BS right away.
Marvinmartian
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The authors are very well connected to the medical establishment.
Quote:
Author Affiliations: Division of General Internal Medicine, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Iowa Carver College of Medicine, Iowa City (Mss Rosenthal and Lu, and Dr Cram); and The Center for Comprehensive Access and Delivery Research and Evaluation (CADRE), Iowa City Veterans Administration Medical Center, Iowa City (Ms Lu and Dr Cram). Ms Rosenthal is a student at Washington University, St Louis, Missouri.


They knew what questions to ask, and whom to go to for answers.

The 10:1 range is astounding. Yet (from the paper)

Quote:
Irrespective of the reason for the variation we encountered, we would actually view our results with a modicum of optimism. The nearly $100 000 range in pricing that we encountered suggests that a savvy and determined customer may find opportunities for significant savings with comparison shopping. Alternatively, it is equally possible to argue that our results suggest that less-educated or less-savvy patients could pay exorbitantly high prices.
Irishblues
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Quote:
Low: The CFO is actually trying to be helpful. Making sure that self-pay patients get an immediate 50% reduction (without making them haggle or prove financial distress for it) actually is very decent.

On the other side of the spectrum is the experience some people I know had with a hospital system in central Wisconsin. Since it's the only show around (well, there's sort of another one - but when you're able to exert power and shove others around and wipe out the competition, you get to call all the shots), they regularly hassle for payment in full before 30 days are up, refuse to send out statements (or proof that they even sent a statement out) when asked, and when people don't pay in full immediately call out the collection agency, who promptly turns to their hand-picked lawyer to sue for full payment and "court costs and legal fees" - and then order garnishments and seize property in order to make good on it.

In any other business, we'd call that racketeering and extortion. In health care, it's just the cost of doing good business.
Genesis
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