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| The Fundamental Challenge In Our Economy in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Ktrosper
Posts: 1500
Incept: 2010-04-06
ft collins co
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Gen wrote..So what does this auger for the future? War, eventually. The entire world is going to be in a VERY bad mood when it realizes that these trillions can not and will not be repaid.
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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D
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Grashopa
Posts: 2618
Incept: 2009-02-03
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Quote: The subset of a thing can never replace the whole.
Another great piece of common sense.
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Theft is evil
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Quote:The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
Indeed, but the market does not remain irrational forever. The word of the day (decade?) for me has been patience. I've been out of everythign since before the 2008 crash and patiently waiting for things to unwind. How long I will have to wait is anyone's guess, I've given up trying to predict when the sea-change will happen, I'm just riding it out. Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Musicandnature
Posts: 1953
Incept: 2007-12-05
NJ
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"Indeed, but the market does not remain irrational forever."
shall we read btw the lines that you have been putty-tat shoppin? I bought a tiny litter Friday. my gold has lapsed so I missed any recent tick/vid comments; plan to buy it back soon.
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Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose, You and me bound to spend some time wonder'n what to choose. Goes to show, you don't ever know, watch each card you play and play it slow...Wait until that deal come round, don't you let that deal go down, no no. Garcia/Hunter.
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 630
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Flap, let me say I always enjoy your posts.
Riding it out includes how you're hedging for the inevitable. Shorting economies, metals, real estate and all that. FOOD n protection of that food and those important to you, right?
I am not a kid so I am used to riding things out, but things seem different this year.
Do you think there's going to be a war, Sirius? It feels like it felt before.
KS
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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R2judge
Posts: 576
Incept: 2008-04-13
Burbank CA
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Well, if the lousy recent economic reports are indicating that a recession is at the doorstep, the stock market will will follow the economy down.
IN 2007 the DOW looked like a rising parabolic and moved in leaps near the end, to get to 14,000. It would seem as if the market wants a new all time high, just so it can splash the headline, before whatever reality is about to take hold.
The real question is how far will it fall?
I have seen a chart which has a regression line and the market is approaching the line from below. The market can fall back from the line, but the line itself has been rising all during the time the market has been below it.
The more time that has gone buy,with a rising regression line, the less likely it seems that 666 will be revisited on a nominal basis.
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Zarathustra
Posts: 5960
Incept: 2009-04-29
Funkytown
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Another portion of the "challenge" we are facing. Selective prosecution in the financial industry. Take Corzine for example. This, from Zero Hedge this morning, is shocking.
ZH-Those who watched Frontline's special on why nobody has been prosecuted on Wall Street titled appropriately "The Untouchables" didn't learn much new. The rehash of ideas presented is what has been well known for years - namely that when it comes to prosecuting Wall Street criminals nothing will ever happen, because as Bill Gross tweeted " Its not Republican in politics. Its not Dem in politics. Its money in politics" and all the money in politics comes from Wall Street, which happens to be the ultimate ruler of the United States of America, pushing levers here and pulling stringer there to give the impression the constitutional republic is still alive. It isn't - this country has become an unchecked despotism of those in charge of money creation and who control capital - just the thing Andrew Jackson warned against. One thing we did learn, was courtesy of Assistant Attorney General Lenny Breuer who made it very clear that when it comes to the concept of justice the banks are and always have been "more equal" than others. He does so in such shocking clarity and enthusiasm that it is a miracle that this person is still employed by the US Department of Justice.
To wit from the transcript:
MARTIN SMITH: You gave a speech before the New York Bar Association. And in that speech, you made a reference to losing sleep at night, worrying about what a lawsuit might result in at a large financial institution.
LANNY BREUER: Right.
MARTIN SMITH: Is that really the job of a prosecutor, to worry about anything other than simply pursuing justice?
LANNY BREUER: Well, I think I am pursuing justice. And I think the entire responsibility of the department is to pursue justice. But in any given case, I think I and prosecutors around the country, being responsible, should speak to regulators, should speak to experts, because if I bring a case against institution A, and as a result of bringing that case, there’s some huge economic effect — if it creates a ripple effect so that suddenly, counterparties and other financial institutions or other companies that had nothing to do with this are affected badly — it’s a factor we need to know and understand.
In other words, no criminal charges can be levied against anyone who engaged in the crimes leading to the great financial crisis of 2008 because, get this, the implications of pursuing justice may have destabilizing implications!
In other words, the banker threat of Mutual Assured Destruction has metastasized from the legislative, where in 2008 Hank Paulson demanded a blank check from Congress to spend it on whatever he wishes, "or else...", and has fully taken over the Judicial, where there is Justice for all... and no "Justice" for those who are systemically important.
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"And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all." - Socrates
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Marketpirate
Posts: 1636
Incept: 2007-11-30
New York
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I have had at least 3 coworkers in the last 48 hours tell me they are pulling their money out of the 457 pension "stable funds," and reinvesting them in the stock growth fund side of the pension. They expressed to me that they were tired of the near zero returns on their money.
I smiled, nodded my head, and wished them good luck.
All the while telling myself the market must be ready to take a dumb in the next few months. The sheep are jumping back in just in time for their future ass raping.
Personally, I no longer care, and just prepare.
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The bull**** stops when the money runs out, and not a moment before.
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
Online
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There are some sectors that are down, and I'm willing to accumulate them.
Shale oil is overhyped. This has driven down prices for some Canadian producers. Temporary pipeline difficulties drops prices creates price differential between WTI and Brent- this wont last.
Shale gas is more real than oil, but it has a high dropoff in production rates over about 3 years. This makes conventional gas producers worth less in the short term with possibility of increases after the hype fades.
All this natural gas is making the US a leading producer of plastics and fertilizer. Consider firms in these fields.
It aint all doom and gloom.
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Quote:Riding it out includes how you're hedging for the inevitable. Shorting economies, metals, real estate and all that. FOOD n protection of that food and those important to you, right? Drk I don't really know how to describe my strategy. I've built up a cash position in savings and paid down debt plus I already had real estate. I have given up on any ideas of shorting because the market can stay irrational longer than I can stay solvent. :) I guess my strategy is to be as 'neutral' as possible so that no matter how things collapse my portfolio will collapse less than average so that I can come out a winner when the fire-sales happen. Maybe you could say that I've tried to firm-up a decent starting position for the post-crash world. I have no illusions that I can prepare a position such that the post-crash world will be painless for me. If any of you fellow TF's have some ideas I'm all ears. Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Quote:All this natural gas is making the US a leading producer of plastics and fertilizer. Consider firms in these fields.
It aint all doom and gloom. Marvin I came this close || to buying DDD six months ago (and a couple of the other 3D companies) because I think 3D printing will truly be the next big thing. Unfortunately in this case I said to myself "stay out of the market, its all rigged" and did not. Good luck on your future stock picks, I am going for LAND. Land that I can live on, farm, ranch, and grow timber on. That way I can make money on it and ENJOY it at the same time. I don't get much enjoyment from owning a few electrons on some stock exchange. Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Yaldor
Posts: 2687
Incept: 2008-05-17
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Gen,
If you want to get an idea about timing try to chart the total cost of servicing the debt vs GDP growth.
As interest rates go down this cost goes down.
In fact the cost now is negligible.
The cycle was stretched for 20 years with the help of reduced rates.
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For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 . For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 630
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Flap I'm not teaching you anything but if you have too much in cash and there's a run in the dollar (which KD does not think is likely, and he is often right, but not always--don't ban me, I'm your biggest fan!!) but if there is then you could lose all that, so be careful. I agree with the guy from Mars up there because there is always opportunities. That's why I read the Casey Report, and this site.
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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Steelhead23
Posts: 2042
Incept: 2008-09-09
Portland OR
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A minor quibble: Because the market is a reflection of both carefully delineated decision-making systems (e.g. HFT robots) and human decision processes that have been shown to be highly dependent on emotion, the market (i.e. prices) is never entirely rational. Hence, the market is always irrational, sometimes more, sometimes less. And even though the DJIA is well above norms associated with fundamentals (earnings, etc.) in some respects this bubble is a rational response to excessive liquidity with a paucity of opportunity. Also, not to start a fight, but the bubble has much more to do with Fed policy (including QE of course) than government deficit spending, but that is somewhat of a circular quibble (why do QE if government debt were manageable in an open market?). Still, to suggest that deficit spending is the root cause of the bubble is rational only if you consider the Fed to be a part of our government. I don't. The primary cause of the bubble in equities is Fed monetary policy.
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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
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Genesis
Posts: 130746
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Sorry, The Fed is a purely political entity and part of our government.
They exist only with the blessing and in fact explicit license of Congress.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Apotheoun
Posts: 1283
Incept: 2009-08-14
MN
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maybe I am dreaming this, but is it just me or on the tail end of the chart is there a switch in correlation where now when debt drops GDP actually increases... I do not know if that is some kind of anomoly or I am dreaming it, but is that a change in trend?
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"when despair is all you can see, the end is finally near." "Because there is some good left in this world, AND ITS WORTH FIGHTING FOR!"
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Steelhead23
Posts: 2042
Incept: 2008-09-09
Portland OR
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Yes, the Fed was created by the U.S. Congress - but do the actions of the Fed conform to the will of Congress? Why did Fed dollars go to Societe Generale? Was that the will of Congress? Like Frankenstein's monster, the Fed does not obey its makers. I hold to my argument that the equity bubble is primarily a response to loose monetary policy and only a bit to fiscal policy (deficit spending).
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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
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Apotheoun
Posts: 1283
Incept: 2009-08-14
MN
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as I look closer, it seems that correlation changes in about 2007. Does that mark saturation?
Edit: it looks like Q3 2008 when the crash started, sorry
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"when despair is all you can see, the end is finally near." "Because there is some good left in this world, AND ITS WORTH FIGHTING FOR!"
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Genesis
Posts: 130746
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:Yes, the Fed was created by the U.S. Congress - but do the actions of the Fed conform to the will of Congress? Why did Fed dollars go to Societe Generale? Was that the will of Congress? It indeed was. Were it not they could delete the Charter with one vote, and poof -- there goes The Fed.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Uppity_peasant
Posts: 3112
Incept: 2009-06-26
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Quote:Indeed, but the market does not remain irrational forever. It's gonna be a HOOT when the touts breathlessly talking about NEW ALL TIME HIGHS get it in the pooper. Of course, they'll disappear from the site like a mist in the morning summer sun, never to be seen again...
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==== If it's true that "assault weapons" are "weapons of war" and don't belong on the streets of America, why do the police need them? Who are the police at war with?
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Uppity_peasant
Posts: 3112
Incept: 2009-06-26
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Quote:One thing we did learn, was courtesy of Assistant Attorney General Lenny Breuer who made it very clear that when it comes to the concept of justice the banks are and always have been "more equal" than others. He does so in such shocking clarity and enthusiasm that it is a miracle that this person is still employed by the US Department of Justice. You have to remember that Lanny Breuer earned his chops in lawbreaking and protecting the guilty Elite with the Clinton Crime House in the late 1990s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanny_A._Br....Quote:White House Counsel's Office
In 1997, Breuer joined the White House Counsel’s Office as Special Counsel to President William Jefferson Clinton, working under Counsel to the President Charles F.C. Ruff. As Special Counsel, Breuer defended the White House and President Clinton in the congressional and Justice Department investigations of the Clinton campaign's fundraising. He also defended the White House and President Clinton in the various independent counsel investigations, including Ken Starr's Lewinsky investigation. During the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton, he defended the President in the impeachment hearings in the House and the impeachment trial in the Senate. Remember, Clinton was GUILTY of crimes that would get you and I a quick ten years in PMIA federal prison. Big Bill? Not so much... $100K speaking paydays, and lifetime SS protection - you betcha! Interestingly, Breuer got his start as a DA: Quote:Early career
After graduating from Columbia Law School, Breuer was an assistant district attorney in Manhattan from 1985 to 1989, where he prosecuted violent crime, such as armed robbery and gang violence, white collar crime, and other offenses. From 1989 until 1997, Breuer practiced law with the law firm of Covington & Burling LLP in Washington, D.C. He's nothing more than a consigliere for elite criminals.
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==== If it's true that "assault weapons" are "weapons of war" and don't belong on the streets of America, why do the police need them? Who are the police at war with?
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 630
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Yes, Congress created the Fed but that's because the bankers wanted it. It is like the devil putting it's baby inside Rosemary. On this important topic, Steelhead, did you see Bill Still's movie the Secret of Oz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIhDdST2....More enjoyable than Harry Potter. The classic source, I think a must-read, is The Creature from Jekyll Island by Edward Griffin. You can still get it on Amazon but it's an oldie.
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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Steelhead23
Posts: 2042
Incept: 2008-09-09
Portland OR
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Gen - I suppose you are correct - Congress could de-charter the Fed - but, doing so would be monumental. Currently, the Fed has over $2 trillion in assets. One does not just dump $2 T overnight. Hence, the Fed is both too big to fail and too big to de-charter (given the current level of courage in Congress). I capitulate. Here's the deal - the Fed is chartered to manage U.S. monetary policy in the public interest. It has failed. It contributed to the housing bubble and failed to recognize the risk. Today it is contributing to the equity bubble, fully aware of the risks, because in its bank-centric view, there is no alternative. And I suppose the majority in Congress wished to ignore, and more importantly, keep the public unaware, that Fed policy was aimed at keeping afloat major players in global finance - at enormous public expense. After all, they eviscerated Ron Paul's audit the Fed legislation. I suppose our basic disagreement is that I see the issue as excessive liquidity (e.g. ZIRP) and you tend to view deficit spending as the cause of the equity bubble. In the final analysis, it simply does not matter - the market is manipulated, or irrational, and U.S. policy (fiscal and monetary) is the cause.
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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
Online
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Flap wrote..because I think 3D printing will truly be the next big thing I think 3D printing will be big, but its all part of a different paradigm for manufacturing. When CAD/CAM hits the hobby level in a big way(its getting there) the basis for manufacturing shifts to decentralized firms, maybe even sole proprietorships. Its a market thats hard to predict. What's out there now is something like the Altair 8800. Whats coming is something like the 8088-based IBM PC. Which firm will be the next analog to Microsoft? How will manufacturing change?
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