This Is Not Good (Lithium Batteries, BA)
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2013-01-20 11:28
by Karl Denninger
in Company Specific
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This Is Not Good (Lithium Batteries, BA)
 

In the plane flames department we have this...

The National Transportation Safety Board Sunday added a new twist to the high-profile probes of electrical malfunctions aboard a pair of Boeing Co.'s 787 airliners by disclosing that the battery that caught fire on a parked Japan Airlines Co. jet earlier this month "did not exceed its designed voltage."

That's not good.

Lithium ion batteries, like all batteries, have a positive and negative plate material, an electrolyte that permits the movement of electrons through it, and plate separator material that prevents the two plates from touching each other.

Lithium chemistry batteries get their high power density from a number of factors, among them being the eV potential difference between the two plate materials (quite high) and the mass of Lithium (quite low.)  Their high charge and discharge rates come from how the plate material is fashioned and thus the high surface area of each plate and low distance through which the electrons must flow from one to the other.  Lithium batteries are desirable in these applications because although they're expensive they store a lot of energy in a small size package of lesser weight than competing technologies -- and both size and weight are at a premium in an aircraft.

But there is no such thing as a free lunch.  High current flow means heat production and heat must be dissipated or either the electrolyte will boil (causing the seals on the casing to be violated) or in extreme cases the casing itself will melt.  Once this process begins it is very hard to put out such a fire because the heat source that is feeding it remains until the energy stored in the pack has been consumed.

There are several different nuances in the chemistry in these packs but all are subject to various potential risks.  Part of the problem is that the reaction in the battery itself (like all batteries) produces heat, but in addition the cathode in many of these produce oxygen.  Unfortunately chemical reactions proceed faster the hotter things get, and as a result a thermal runaway is possible, especially if there is a short-circuit that cannot be automatically interrupted before the battery gets hot enough to thermally run away.  The high energy density makes this risk relatively unique to Lithium chemistry batteries because there is much more energy available in a given unit of space in these devices than there would be for other competing technologies.

The fact that overcharging is not implicated in at least one of these incidents leads to some uncomfortable places, with the most-serious being a potential problem with the assembly of the battery itself (that is, an internal flaw that produced a short circuit inside the case.)  This has occurred with laptop and similar batteries in the past and is extremely dangerous because the usual protective circuits are of course not effective.  If this is proved to be the case here then Boeing's supplier of that battery likely has a major problem with future orders, but more importantly Boeing may have an unsolveable problem with the use of these batteries, because it is essentially impossible to insure that no defects in the battery pack's manufacturing will ever occur.

This is one of the issues that arose with the Volt, if you remember, where a couple of them caught fire without apparent cause.  This was ultimately traced to the coolant used around the battery pack leaking and then crystallizing in the circuitry as the temperature fell, causing a short circuit.  Since the short was inside the protective systems' pathways they could not interrupt the current and the battery overheated, ultimately catching fire.

I do not know the exact chemistry varient used in the 787 (there are several) and some are exposed to unique risks that others are immune from.  But if the finger is pointed at the pack itself as a manufacturing defect there's going to be a problem with resolving the issue since this is not something you can inspect for on delivery from suppliers and thus the usual means of checking for tolerances and such will not be effective as a means of detecting faults before the units are placed in service.

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Medicdan
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Yup, I was thinking when I saw this story a few days ago that they need to either use better battery packs or go back to lead acid.

I do wonder (statistically) what the rate of explosion / fire is with these. I have had my own bad experience with these batteries so I would assume it's rather common.

Perhaps there is a potential for a new industry. A fire proof battery container?

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Flappingeagle
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Quote:
Perhaps there is a potential for a new industry. A fire proof battery container?


Asbestos is pretty light and fire-proof...

Flap

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Medicdan
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Agree Flag. One of the problems or issues with aircraft is weight. This is the advantage to the newer batteries vs lead, etc. I wonder if you could build a box with an enclosed kill circuit and a halon device? Is halon even used anymore?


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Peterm99
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Medicdan wrote..
A fire proof battery container?
Manufacturing such containers within a very small mass/volume constraint probably requires the output of a lot of unobtainium mines.

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Clintb350
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787 No-Bleed system, about 3% more fuel efficient because what would normally be bled off for other systems is used for thrust.

inline

http://boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazin....
Flaps10
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It's already in a fireproof box, which is why the plane didn't burn up. The box is ugly now, but it did its job

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Eaglewwit
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The batteries use cobalt oxide and are made in Japan. Apparently they are denser in energy, but have a higher propensity for thermal runaway.
Khuber
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Surface area increases by a factor of 2. Volume, by a factor of 3. Beyond some design point the heat in the volume cannot escape through the surface as quickly as generated within the volume.

Bertdilbert
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You life vest is located beneath your seat. In the event of a lithium battery failure, hand crank generators will deploy from the ceiling in front of you. Please vigorously turn the handle as that will be our only source of power for the fire suppression system. Once you have started cranking the generators, please continue until we have landed and we have disembarked the plane. Once the flight crew is safely in the terminal, you will be cleared to proceed to the exits.

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Iou
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One inspection thought is to look for a "Made in China" stamp...

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Little_eddie
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I use Lithium Polymer batteries in my RC planes for the same reasons Boeing does, weight.

For transport and charging I use a small fireproof safe as the batteries for RC have no safety devices at all that I can find. The cells are just incased in a foil and a plastic wrap to hold all the cells together.

At least the Lithium Polymer battery in your Phone or Laptop have a temp sensor and are in a plastic box to keep them from being damaged.

I use the safe because I crash my batteries into the ground sometimes, smiley and you can't always tell if one is damaged or now.

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Andysvw
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Could these batteries have an issue with pressure cycling?
Genesis
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Probably not. They are theoretically sealed units (their valving is of an "emergency" nature and is only intended to protect the battery against a burst case; once activated the unit is done as the electrolyte's balance is critical to proper operation.)

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Andysvw
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Thanks I was wondering about it because it happened on the ground. A couple of hours after depressurization.
Do you think these batteries could be neutralized via a thermally activated blister pack of baking soda or the like? It does not take much baking soda to kill a lead acid battery.
Genesis
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Not really, no.

I suspect there is no real answer that will make anyone happy when it comes to be able to "solve" this; the answer lies in the realm of "don't do that"

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Outback
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Keeping it Simple. The reason for the battery failure is Excessive Charge Current after battery voltage is down from starting the system, Engines or Electronics. After USE, Battery Charger starts charging Battery, put too Many Amps back into the battery and it is going to get HOT, then smoke, flame and FIRE.

Think about when Battery failed, Shortly after take off, like 30 minutes.
the battery is now being Charged. That is why I think it is EXCESSIVE CHARGE
RATE to charge the battery which is the problem.

Solution, LOWER charge rate and problem fixed. Easy.
Andysvw
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That sucks for Boeing if they dont have extra space around the batteries. If you cant capture all the gases in flight. Or be able to safely vent off. Wow this could be a major screw up.
Analog
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I +'d your post, clintb.

Thanks -

Electronics is not the best way to do everything.
Mechanical things are best served by mechanical servants, imho.

Gen's explanation is why i resolved years ago to never own a modern electric vehicle - i will not park my butt over that kind of battery.

A gas tank has its oxygen outside so won't self destruct
unless you do something dumb like energize an electic heater in an almost empty one.
A big battery with that kind of energy density is simply too much chemical energy in too few cubic inches for me; every erg is just clawing to get out...

call me old fashioned.

The law of "diminishing returns" is as much a natural law as Newton's. Scaling of those batteries beyond pocket size needs to be done far away from people.
I worry about the one in my pacemaker.

Reason: add thought
Genesis
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Outback, no, that's not what the data shows thus far.

The JAL pack went up on the ground after landing which is not congruent with that theory.

One of the reasons you use lithium packs in the first place is that they accept charges at rates fairly congruent with AGM/SLA packs, but are smaller and lighter for the same number of Joules stored.

The evidence at this point is that the packs are shorting out internally. That evidence may change over time, but that's what's in evidence right now, and that's bad news.

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What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Peterm99
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To a first order, this seems quite easily solvable technologically by going back to whatever types of batteries are used in the older generation aircraft. Of course, that might mean that they have to give up the mass and/or volume equivalent of several rows of passenger seating which might well change the results of the economic viability calculations.

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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed

Reason: changed "mass and volume" to "mass and/or volume"
Genesis
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Exactly Peterm.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Analog
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Quote:
....going back to whatever types of batteries are used in the older generation aircraft.


or using instead a small gas turbine powered generator. That'd require only a hull penetration for exhaust and a small fuel line.

Nomullet
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They should switch to lithium phosphate batteries

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Donethat
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Wonder how safe the (alcohol? methane? ) fuel cell technology is? I heard a few years ago they had several WalMarts powered by the boxes in the back of the stores.
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