"The Fiscal Cliff Will Look Like The Fiscal Hill": Liesman
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2013-01-16 08:57
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
"The Fiscal Cliff Will Look Like The Fiscal Hill": Liesman
 

Again, it comes.

Steve Liesman just said that they are "modeling" the GDP impact of deficit spending ceasing because the debt limit is not raised.

Well, duh.   Since The Ticker began publication the fact that debt is (of course) additive to GDP when it is created, because the "money" created via new debt is spent on something, which means it "counts" in GDP, is a theme I have continually hammered on.

But this is in fact not final demand and not real; it is an apparition. 

Discussion of this fact has been studiously avoided in the mainstream media for the last five years. 

Until, suddenly, it's not.

In the last couple of days this fact has been brought up several times on CNBC and elsewhere.  Exactly what triggered people's remembrance of exponents along with exactly what deficit spending is and does is something I can't get my arms around, but I must admit to cracking a wry smile that suddenly a breakthrough appears to be occurring within the media and various "communications channels."

I'd like to take some credit for that since I've been incessantly pounding the table the entire time, but I won't.  I suspect that what's really going on here is that like the relative dearth of atheists in foxholes the very real potential of an actual "full stop" on the deficit game has forced people to contemplate exactly how many of their fingernails they have dug in to maintain their grip on the cliff face -- and that grip is becoming more and more tenuous by the day.

The ugly reality is that from 2000-2007 we added some $27 trillion in new debt to the system, and yet our "expansion" of GDP over that same period of time was less.

Now there will be people who argue that this is unfair, in that the GDP expansion was maintained in the subsequent years.  What they're missing is that the expansion was exponential and hit the wall in 2007, which is what called a halt to the games -- for a while.

The Federal Government has taken between 6-10% of the economy each year and substituted new debt for alleged final demand that didn't and still doesn't exist.  This is a short-term game that must and will fail, because it too will go exponential if not cut off. 

That is how you wind up as Greece did.

We're dangerously close to that cliff -- and instead of spending the last four years calling for the government to not step in and further extend the ponzi scheme we instead heard all about the "necessity" for the government to stand in place of the private debt-creation machine.

But as I pointed out this "substitution" is a gambit that cannot succeed because one cannot take a collapsed exponential pyramid scheme and shore it up -- it is mathematically impossible to do so on a continuing basis. 

Any attempt to do so simply makes the amount of pain that must be endured to restore balance worse.  This is the lesson of the 1930s, it is the lesson of Greece, and it is now the lesson that we will be forced to deal with -- and which is, after five years, starting to gain some currency among the mainstream media.

Welcome to 5th grade math class Mr. Liesman.  Please sharpen your pencil and take a seat.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

The Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online for non-commercial purposes provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media or for commercial use.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
User Info "The Fiscal Cliff Will Look Like The Fiscal Hill": Liesman in forum [Market-Ticker]
Jubber
Posts: 14140
Incept: 2007-07-05
Gold
UK
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
hope you have forwarded this to that prick

----------

“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
Rvacha
Posts: 8295
Incept: 2008-10-03
Gold
Cleveland
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I guess at least one person still watches CNBS - I know I don't and haven't since the good 'ol days when Maria cried. Mathematics is a bitch indeed

----------
"I suggest you panic." - Hugh Hendry
Curbyourrisk
Posts: 3595
Incept: 2008-08-19

Farmingdale, NY
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
When can we expect to see Mr. Denninger schooling Mr. Liesman on CNBC???

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

smiley

----------
Time is up.

I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no Santa Claus, the tooth fairy does not exist and American justice does not involve the courts.

Genesis
Posts: 130779
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
They apparently learned when I ripped off Beaker's head and **** down his neck a few times -- I no longer am invited smiley

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Striker754
Posts: 671
Incept: 2009-07-09

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ho....

the money quote:

Quote:

The other big vote was on whether to offset the $17 billion baseline bill with a 1.63 percent cut to discretionary government programs. The sponsor of this language, Rep. Mick Mulvaney (R-S.C.), argued that while prior disaster bills did not have offsetting spending cuts, Congress is now operating in the context of a $16 trillion debt.

Mulvaney's amendment failed 162-258, as Republicans split on the proposal 157-71. The vote split GOP leaders, as Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) voted for it, while Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) and Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) voted against it.


Couldn't cut 1.63% of discretionary spending. That should tell you something about the upcoming debt ceiling/sequester cuts.
Captainkidd
Posts: 594
Incept: 2010-05-25
Silver
Pasadena, Texas
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
That should tell you something about the upcoming debt ceiling/sequester cuts.


Yep. Status Quo. Nothing will change........Until it does.

----------
A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a thousand men with guns. --Mario Puzo

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford
Vitchilo
Posts: 4626
Incept: 2011-04-27

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Discussion of this fact has been studiously avoided in the mainstream media for the last five years.

Until, suddenly, it's not.

When it's time to blame the republicans for something, the truth comes out a little.

----------
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Johnny
Posts: 1586
Incept: 2008-10-01
Silver
Kentucky
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
and Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) voted against it.


And HE'S considered a conservative...
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ