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| More Evidence Mental Health Issues Are Ignored in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Noodleman
Posts: 2392
Incept: 2008-11-01
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There's no money in a 'war on mental illness' like there is in a 'war on drugs', Karl. Go to any large urban area with crazies sleeping in doorways, alleyways or arguing with imaginary companions while pushing their shopping carts full of their worldly belongings. The government couldn't care less about them until they act out and then they throw them in prison where mental health care is a farce. This is one of the reasons we have 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners in America. It would be super if the families of these sick people would take care of them, but either they are just as nuts or don't want the added burden. The churches aren't going to help. They have to send whatever they collect back to Rome or Salt Lake City. It's not that difficult to take care of a broken arm. All you do is set the break and cast it. But you can't wrap a bandage around a man's head if he's crazy and expect him to heal. And this county specializes in breeding crazies too. If you aren't crazy coming in....chances are you will be going out.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Genesis
Posts: 130773
Incept: 2007-06-26
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The thing is Noodle that you have a right to be crazy, and a huge percentage of the population is in one form or another -- and always has been.
C'mon man, we've all got stories both contemporary and through our families of the "nutty aunt" or the "crazy uncle." You know the one. Every family has at least one, and some are full of them.
Does it matter? No, nor should it, until and unless your mental condition makes you violent toward others.
THEN, and only then, is there a right to intervene.
But we don't intervene then, just like we let the known violent ****heads out of prison -- after all, we need room for the dope smoker, you know.
So the guy who carjacks and rapes gets let out so we can lock up a pothead.
Yeah, that makes sense.
NOT.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Wearedoomed
Posts: 3585
Incept: 2009-01-14
slightly red state
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The stellar quality of our politicians (with extremely few exceptions) was more than enough evidence for me. /rimshot
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And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Gweedo
Posts: 100
Incept: 2010-11-12
Florida
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It seems off topic... and I DON'T want to steer the conversation... but the only coherent reason I think people can't follow this logic is that schooling has made the populace simply regurgitate information. Throw "guns are bad" long enough through the media to a few generations of kids (now adults) who have no true critical thinking skills, but were rewarded in school and their careers with regurgitating some information.. you get people who spew what they've taken in and nothing more.
This is an opportunity to disarm the threat, and our leaders will gladly use the pumping of info about guns and the emotion of "we have to do something" to steer toward their agenda.
It's obvious to anyone who can reason that the platform for Obama to change his tune on gun control and Feinstein to get a voice again about a "stronger assault weapons ban" is orchestrated. There are many more news stories we should be covering, or the same stories covered differently, but it doesn't fit the master's agenda.
Get it while you can... your neighbors are part of the matrix.
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Noodleman
Posts: 2392
Incept: 2008-11-01
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I agree with much of what you say, Karl. But with all due respect, if these crazies aren't helped in some fashion and then go ballistic by taking out 20 innocent people - then we really have no right to bitch. The sword of freedom cuts both ways. Again, go to any downtown urban area at night and look at all the nutjobs walking around arguing with themselves. Alot of these people are paranoid schizophrenics and walking time bombs. If they happen to access a lethal weapon and a voice in their heads tell them that 20 passengers on a city bus are out to kill them....it could be disastrous. So if we are going to tolerate rampant severe mental illness under the guise of freedom then there is going to be a price paid for it. And the commmon denominator of all these mass murders seems to be mental illness. But I agree that the prison system sucks. It' just another billion dollar industry to pay prison guards and administrators like medical doctors while baby sitting dope dealers.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Robodog
Posts: 11
Incept: 2011-06-12
people's republic of md
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The powers-that-be have long been protecting their subjects from things that don't harm them while subjecting them to things that do. For example:
- protecting us from 2nd-hand smoke, while ignoring agri-business "franken" foods & pharma-business psychotropic drugs
- protecting us from a few Islamist terrorists 1,000's of miles away, while ignoring millions of illegal aliens who live amongst us
and your example of disarming us while letting loose the prison predators.
I am sanguine about neither the paths we are on nor their ultimate destinations. Cheers.
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Grunwald
Posts: 261
Incept: 2012-06-01
Seattle
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Gweedo, you are 100% correct on the rewarding of just being able to absorb information and repeat it. I saw it at my job. I went from being a golden boy to a trouble maker simply because I did not take everything at face value and asked questions that would require someone to have the ability for critical thinking.
These people do not want to think. Thay want to go to a seminar and be handed some grand plan tha5 they can implement, which will instantly make everything better and more efficient. Next year it's onto a different seminar and different plan.
The end result is a constant state of change and things getting more and more ****ed up.
....but they still get their gold star and promotion for implementing their stupid plan.
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Peterm99
Posts: 4991
Incept: 2009-03-21
SoCal
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I would expect that a lot of this (both mental health and criminal issues) is tied into the lack of accountability for job performance of gov't employees.
It is my understanding that testimony/statements from some "mental health professional" that an individual is fit for release (whether a mentally ill person being released from a mental facility or a criminal being released on parole) is required prior to any such release. I doubt very much that those whose ratio of positive attestations to recidivists is high or if parole boards who continue to release recidivists suffer any adverse salary/career impact or are otherwise liable in any way for the results of their recommendations/actions.
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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
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Grunwald
Posts: 261
Incept: 2012-06-01
Seattle
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As tragic as it is to lose one's life to some nutcase it is also Darwanism at work. I did the subway thing for 3 years in Boston, and that would have never happened to me. I was never anywhere the edge of the platform until the train was there.
I was always aware that some nut job could do just what this woman did.
You have to have situational awarness when out in public.
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Musicandnature
Posts: 1954
Incept: 2007-12-05
NJ
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how the heck can you be arrested so many times and never get sent away ?
assault and no jail ?
As you say later, I recall reading years ago that an 18yo kid in some midwest state got a 20 yr sentence for having an ounce of herb !
Did anyone else note the law enforement's failure to follow logic in their gun control arguments, when they said this about the subway murder yesterday:
"The defendant is accused of committing what is every subway commuter's worst nightmare -- being suddenly and senselessly pushed into the path of an oncoming train," said Brown, the district attorney. "The victim was allegedly shoved from behind and had no chance to defend himself."
If a person waiting for a subway should be afforded the chance to defend onesself, then how much more any of us when in our homes or walking the streets alone be afforded the chance to own and use a weapon.
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Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose, You and me bound to spend some time wonder'n what to choose. Goes to show, you don't ever know, watch each card you play and play it slow...Wait until that deal come round, don't you let that deal go down, no no. Garcia/Hunter.
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Ct-hilltopper
Posts: 58
Incept: 2010-11-04
Connecticut
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**The thing is Noodle that you have a right to be crazy, and a huge percentage of the population is in one form or another -- and always has been.
C'mon man, we've all got stories both contemporary and through our families of the "nutty aunt" or the "crazy uncle." You know the one. Every family has at least one, and some are full of them.**
Karl, it sounds like you've been to one of my family's reunions. =-)
I think it's a prerequisite in any Southern family that there has to be at least one "eccentric" or "interesting" one. I moved to Connecticut shortly after graduating from college mainly to avoid my mother's family reunions.
I have noticed that most of the people that have to be in shelters have mental issues of some kind. I highly suspect that most of this is due to the health care industry "dumping" people who have reached the end of their (or their families) health insurance benefits. mental health benefits have stringent limits, and once you reach the limits, you either have to pay cash or you are screwed. There is a reason that Adam Lanza's mother got all of that money in the divorce settlement. I am suspecting that he actually needed that full time care, or else he might have had to have been institutionalized. His mother (according to things I have read) was saying to people that she was having problems controlling him...no one wants to admit to themselves that they can no longer take care of someone they love, and in this case, the ending was absolutely horrible.
of course, I could just be talking out of my ass, but that's my feeling...
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I have certain rules I live by. My first rule: I don't believe anything the government tells me.
I don't have pet peeves, I have major psychotic f-ing hatreds! And it makes the world a lot easier to sort out.
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Mrholty
Posts: 1145
Incept: 2007-07-27
Wisconsin
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The problem here isn't the lack of accountability of public employees. It a lack of will from their Sr. Mgmt and the general populace in general. Go spend time with any social worker.
In college I dated a girl who was in Social Work. For Christmas one year we broke college students raised some monies and we bought 4 twin beds/sheets/pillows and one small toy to bring out to a single mom on disability who had 4 kids. Kids were estatic and appreciated the bed so they didn't have to sleep on the floor. We went back 4 weeks later and beds were gone. Mom sold the beds to buy the kids toys so that they would have a "real Christmas". Mom had serious mental health issues but if the courts took the kids away the mom was going to get them back even though you could easily show physical neglect.
My mother taught school for a long time and she had a kid who had severe autism who masturbated in class. Couldn't kick him out as the mother (stay at home mom) and dad (doctor) would fight that he needed to be raised as normal as possible.
At the end of the day, there were probably a lot of kids who were institutionalized that didn't need to be and are probably better off today being productive members of society, especially with the help of better medicine. But in many regards the pendulum like it always does has swung the other way in that there are obvious people who need to be instutuionalized that can't/won't as we as society let a biased family make that decision.
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Reluctantdebtor
Posts: 131
Incept: 2010-03-05
ohio
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My small town used to be relatively safe and friendly. In the 80s, funding was cut and four or so local "sanitariums" (essentially prisons where troublesome wacky people were sent, never to return) were closed. With unbelievable speed, the streets were flooded with large numbers of crazies, some quite frightening, others merely pathetic, and none of them with any available friends or family to take them in. The habitually violent ones eventually ended up in jails or prisons, but were often released far too quickly, and similarly re-offended, as the NY subway lady did. However, no matter how "crazy" any of these discharged nutters (many of whom still linger) appeared, they seemed to be able to recognize a firearm and its potential, and would suddenly go quiet and slink away when greeted with one.
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Genesis
Posts: 130773
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:However, no matter how "crazy" any of these discharged nutters (many of whom still linger) appeared, they seemed to be able to recognize a firearm and its potential, and would suddenly go quiet and slink away when greeted with one. Yep.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Skybluepink
Posts: 381
Incept: 2007-10-20
RI
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When I was a kid growing up in MA, we would see people living under bridges when we went into a city. My mom said that didn't happen when she was a kid, because those people used to be in mental institutions. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/....From the article: "Deinstitutionalization was based on the principle that severe mental illness should be treated in the least restrictive setting. As further defined by President Jimmy Carter's Commission on Mental Health, this ideology rested on "the objective of maintaining the greatest degree of freedom, self-determination, autonomy, dignity, and integrity of body, mind, and spirit for the individual while he or she participates in treatment or receives services."8 This is a laudable goal and for many, perhaps for the majority of those who are deinstitutionalized, it has been at least partially realized. For a substantial minority, however, deinstitutionalization has been a psychiatric Titanic. Their lives are virtually devoid of "dignity" or "integrity of body, mind, and spirit." "Self-determination" often means merely that the person has a choice of soup kitchens. The "least restrictive setting" frequently turns out to be a cardboard box, a jail cell, or a terror-filled existence plagued by both real and imaginary enemies. " The chart by state at the bottom of the article shows the population at Public Mental Hospitals in MA in 1955 at 23,178. This had dropped to 793 in 1994. |
Heisenberg
Posts: 90
Incept: 2012-09-21
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The reason there are more crazies on the street than there used to be is: ACLU and the Mental Health Systems Act of 1980
Reason: additional text
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Cvdoc
Posts: 163
Incept: 2009-06-11
Washington, DC
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And if you want to keep a patient with TB in the hospital to prevent the infection from spreading, that is easier. We are a mess and our politicians are making it worse.
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Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master.
Sallust
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Lightning
Posts: 9
Incept: 2012-12-18
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I am a mental health professional. The important thing to realize is that like any profession mine demands compensation. The best medical plans often have only eight to 10 sessions available. Families grappling with severe mental illness use their benefits up quickly and there is NO way for them to get help unless they pay out of pocket. The problem there is that the client often needs meds which means a psychiatrist who may charge as much as a cancer specialist. Most people cannot afford this out of pocket. Mrs. Lanza was probably told that her son will get help when he commits a crime, and even then he will be assessed, put in acute care for 72 hours of observation/medication and then set free to await charges. Outside of this, there is no help for him as he was an adult. Even a child does not get help unless they commit a crime, or are recommended by a school psychologist. What happens then is they get state aid for several community services, which are often inadquate. With children the number of people who become involved is immense. You have the social worker, the therapist, the school psychologist, the psychiatrist, the principal, a guardian ad litem, the parents, and if applicable the probation officer/courts. Costs here escalate as well, and how this is handled is that parents end up giving custody to the state to be able to get Medicaid to pay all these people and the attending services. After 21, they are released, often with minimal community mental health services (because that is all many communities have - very very little services), and are left to commit crimes so they can join the prison population. At this point, many in mental health work (or have worked) for DOC. If you haven't, you have worked with the state and medicaid and this is where the bulk of your clients come from. Another often overlooked problem is that we are asked to address "dangerousness", and I can personally attest to the fact that my recommendations are often ignored. Idiocy goes beyond finance & politics and infests courtrooms as well. Although since lawyers seem to pervade all these areas we may have our root cause.
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Jake3463
Posts: 769
Incept: 2010-03-06
Allentown
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@Heisenberg that was a bipartisan compromise. Conservatives wanted to close the state institutions because they didn't want to pay for them and liberals were*****ed off about the conditions in them.
The largest mental health treatment center in 2012 is now the state prison system. Filled with people who try to self medicate with illegal drugs or people who commit crimes while they are ill.
Mental Illness is a tough topic. People who have it and have found successful treatment don't want to talk about it because of the stigma attached to it and generally speaking, unless you have some sort of wealth behind you, you aren't going to get the treatment required to learn how to manage the illness. Than there are those who have it and enjoy being crazy more than being sane and won't take treatment regardless of what economic background they come from.
Our society is incapable of having rational discussions about our deficit. I doubt a topic as complex as this has any hope.
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Heisenberg
Posts: 90
Incept: 2012-09-21
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Jake, good points. Where do we go from here?
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Jake3463
Posts: 769
Incept: 2010-03-06
Allentown
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@Heisenberg
Where should we go or where do we go?
Even if we magically put out the funding tomorrow for mental health it would be years before you had the infrastructure and health care professionals to meet treatment needs.
Realistically I don't see a solution in the next 10 years even being rationally discussed. This is an adult conversation and we don't have those in this country at the present moment.
Best thing is to hope none of your family members gets sick and if one does you have the resources for a doctor and therapist that can teach the family member how to manage the illness. Due to the burdens on the system at the present moment, most doctors will write a prescription and wash their hands of the situation. As said above, some have to do that due to the insurance limitations on the caps of mental health care. The other issue is for the people that are truly sick and won't accept treatment is the ability of the state to involuntarily treat them. That brings up a host of civil liberty issues but if someone is committing assaults or threats that is where the civil liberty issues should start to dissolve.
As a society we could discuss removing those caps, that of course comes with an associated cost in premiums. An adult conversation we can't have. We would also have to discuss the cost benefits of rebuilding the state institution system. Again, this comes with the problem of having an adult discussion on civil liberties, public health, and funding for said institutions without going into too much demagoguery.
A free market approach where institutions are rewarded for people leaving the institutions and returning to society without recidivism would be the best approach I would think.
Frankly we aren't ready to have either discussion. We can't have an adult conversation on basic government spending and taxation right now so we certainly wouldn't be able to handle something with as much nuance as required for a discussion on the mental health care system in the country.
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4261
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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When you speak of family managing a mentally ill person, be aware the state will actively interfere and charge you with a crime if you restrain, threaten, or do other necessary things to protect such a person from his own actions or to protect yourself, even in your own home.
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Dogfarm
Posts: 3253
Incept: 2007-11-29
Online
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mental illness and mental patients are a side effect of our technological society that praises money, power, efficiency, brutality and godlessness.
it's much easier for the politicians and the media to instead blame guns because no one can put any of the above real reasons into a sound bite.
and, of course, there is no 'upside' in helping mentally ill people.
That said, Jake3436 presents a fairly succinct approach - it would be doable (and on a shorter time frame of 1-2 year) if "someone" decided to 'put their full weight behind it'.
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“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8)
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