Interesting how Karl tied this all together. Being a human being is quite messy. And, yes, most of us are sheltered from the realities of modern life. If people were forced to watch how cows or pigs were slaughtered on the nightly news chances are that beef and pork sales would decline sharply. All of us live with cognitive dissonance day in and day out. I would like to think that most of us do not like violence. However, all of us love to eat. And for most of us eating wins over compassion 9 out of 10 times.

I am full-on gun freedom. Not because I love guns. I don't. Oh, I've shot many of them. In the military and during other journies throughout my life. But I never really liked them. They were tools that I used in my chosen activities. Otherwise it would have been sort of like playing baseball without a small cork and rubber filled ball. Some things are simply part of our human experience.

Violent death has been with us forever. It won't go away anytime soon. It's part of our nature. There really isn't much difference in the DNA components that design we humans or the lion that Karl spoke of in his Ticker. Our brains are just a little bigger and more complex enabling us to kill other things more efficiently and in larger numbers. Whether it's by a set of canines, a spear, a guillotine, guns or scud missiles is immaterial in my mind.

Ironically, perhaps we could mitigate our violent culture by exposing the average american to more realities of life. Americans seem to love war. 90% were frothing at the mouth as we shelled Baghdad back in 2003. Why? Because we have never had to defend our own shores. The average Euro is scared ****less of war. Why? Because the European nations were devastated by WW2. They have long memories. So maybe more exposure to violence would diminish it in some sort of uncanny way. It's impossible to eliminate it. Only to manage it.

Mostly, I have no answers. Only questions. Being a human is messy business.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

-Thomas Jefferson

He was so right. Life is messy. Denial is simply most people's coping mechanism.

My first experience with killing was when I worked in a molecular biology/medical research lab at a university. Every once in a while I had to decapitate, immediately drain the blood from, and then dissect organs out of rabbits. It was very difficult for me to do, and it never got any easier.

The contraption that we used for the decapitation was kind of like a combination of a cleaver-like tool and a guillotine. The whole motivation for pushing down on that cleaver was to make it quick so that the rabbit would die as quick as possible. Ideally, the decapitation would happen on the first stroke, but sometimes it didn't happen that way, and it would take a couple more tries. The emotion from doing that part of the job was extremely strong, and would take a few days to fully deal with.

I was well into my fifties before I learned first hand about killing. But having opted for a remote life involving farm animals and hunted game, it was incumbent on me to be the "operator" in charge of putting the food on the table.

I had the great good fortune of having a highly ethical younger friend with long experience in the hunt, the kill, and the cleaning and processing of the food. I noted that he gave a brief and thoughtful thanks to every animal he killed, killed with precision, and carefully used every bit of the animal.

Having killed a few dozen animals now, I'm far more appreciative of the meat I eat, and what was required for me to have that meal.

Thanks for another stirring ticker.

In my experience deer rarely crumple right there when you shoot them. Most deer I've shot have been double lung and through the heart and they still run about 50 yards, drop and then spasm a little bit before dying.

A couple of times I've walked up on deer I've shot and they were still alive, these are the ones that didn't get hit in the lungs/heart. I had to finish them with a shot standing right over them. Not fun.

No it isn't, I don't care for popping the heads off of wounded doves either but they become your responsibility once you take the shot - goes with the territory.

Onelegged wrote..

I dispatched the animal with a single shot from my Glock to the head from a range of 12 feet while it stood and looked me in the eyes.

Having to look an animal in the eyes before shooting it about as personal as it gets.

Back in my teens, I never had a problem taking shots at groundhogs in the field next door. I didn't do it just for fun, but as pest control; all summer long they would come into our yard and wreak havoc in our vegetable garden. The farmer who owned the field encouraged it, and groundhogs were always "in season" in PA back then. But shooting at them from a second-floor window 100-300' away isn't very personal, and if the shot didn't kill them, they'd almost always scurry off into their warrens before I had time to reload the single-shot .22 rifle I was using.

Then roughly a decade ago, my dogs got a hold of a groundhog who had tunneled his way into "their" fenced yard. They had mauled him pretty good, but he was clearly not dead, so I went and got my .22 pistol to finish him off. Having to look him in the eyes while aiming was an entirely different experience than shooting at one from a distance. We looked at each other for what seemed like a very long time before I finally pulled the trigger. In reality, it was probably only a few seconds, and I didn't lose any sleep over it, but I think I will remember that moment vividly for the rest of my life.

-Uwe-

But one thing I do firmly believe. Every one of those bastards in Congress who vote us into a war should be forced to spend a month on the battle fields that they created. And I mean sleeping in half-shelters while listening to the whistles of shells flying overhead. Just so they dirty their shorts and panties a bit to fully understand the consequences of the war that they created.

Naturally, that would never happen. But as a little person, it is just one of those bullet points on my futile dream list.

When you hunt you have to factor in the probability that this will happen - you may have to finish what you start and do it as quickly and humanly as possible - tough if it freaks you out the first time, which it probably will - you bot the ticket.

If you are looking for a read on what I think Karl is really getting at - it's on my bookshelf:

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychologi....

We've been dancing around it for most of this thread.

Quote:

I noted that he gave a brief and thoughtful thanks to every animal he killed, killed with precision, and carefully used every bit of the animal.

Yes.

I considered that the central part of the lesson, Landshark. As I said, a highly ethical young man. And a fine teacher.

One of my earliest VIVID memories is of a "hog killing" this was a family event.

My brother and I were raised by our grandparents on a large farm in the Mississippi delta. We later moved to Memphis.

Anyway, my grandfathers brother was a mans man! This dude was freaking Tarzan. It was cold enough for no insects so the hogs had to be killed and processed. Buck wore a big ass knife sheathed on his belt all the time. He had made it and it was really a small sword.

We all go to the hog pen and Buck hops the fence and stradles a hog at the shoulders. Then he grabs the nose and pulls the head back and slices the throat and steps back. The hop bleeds out and then the other hogs come over and Buck jumps them and does the same.

The rest of the day we processed the hogs...

Buck died 11 years ago @93yo. My brother and mine families were the only surviving famly. We buried his knife with him...

Quote:

Ironically, perhaps we could mitigate our violent culture by exposing the average american to more realities of life.

Not to thread hijack but I've felt this way on the WOD for a long time. I say....in fourth grade take the kiddies on a police escorted field trip to some back alley **** hole where addicts are laying around with **** in their pants.

Not much would need to be said. "There's your drugs kiddies...that's why you should make an effort to stay away from them".

Back to school with them to write one paragraph about their experience.

Most of us have become too detached with "being messy" as Noodleman succinctly put it.

I think we're at a cross roads here folks. I'm very glad I'm no longer the angry young man I was in my 20's. 25 years of life's ups and downs have mellowed the angry spikes in my life. I have a lot more respect for other peoples "space" now than I used to. I'm no longer on that young mans unspoken mission to prove a point at all costs. I prefer to not waste too much energy, time and effort on useless battles.
At the same time I have come to a realization that my time on this plane is finite and I definitely do not want any more unnecessary intrusions into my space and how I handle my own personal affairs.
It amazes me now that I am older that there is a whole culture and a whole industry strictly devoted to the meddling of my life, both private and public.
Millions of people are employed on my thin dime to track, permit, license, intrude, micro-manage and generally **** with....me and my silly existence.
It's ****ing baffling in the extreme to me that my country has morphed into this weird ****ing make believe-busy work bull**** farm and I am now a farm animal.

If I'm not bothering anyone...why should I (or you) even be a blip on anyone s RADAR?

Why to some people feel the irrational compulsion to "rule" me. It's much cheaper and more efficient just to leave me be.

I got booted off of a few "progressive" websites this past week from merely pointing out the TOTAL hypocrisy of MOST all of the "progressives" POV.

Citing that this article was TRUE....or very close to it....

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsiv....

Thiercollectivemother****ingheadsexploded. BANNED!

So yea, I'm gonna move "the fourth Turning" on up to the top of the pile of my reading list.

This is a war. Seriously. A war between those that just want to be left the **** alone....to live their lives and those "statists" of all political persuasions who for some reason feel they MUST micro-manage every single aspect, every ****ing titbit of minutia of others lives.

I'm not angry or mad, just baffled.

/mini rant over....

Good deal, Truth. So many forget this.

Most folks around here take their meat to a processor, one of which is a guy I went to school with and is very good at what he does.

However, when I began processing my own meat in my garage and kitchen, not only did I save $90, I began to figure out uses for almost the entire animal. Two deer kept our family going on all of the healthy protein we needed for a year.

I refuse to take risky shots. This is not an armed assailant coming at you to take your life, this is simply an animal trying to make a living for another day. To decide to take its life is no small thing.

I wait for broadside shots where I can penetrate the vitals. If it's not there, I don't take it. I'm not going to mortally wound some animal and send it off to die days later.

In any case, my shot is so much more humane than the death that animal will experience in its elder years, in the jaws of a pack of predators.

There's not been one time that I've looked through the scope at a beautiful deer that I did not whisper "thank you" before I squeezed the trigger.

Noodleman:

Quote:

But one thing I do firmly believe. Every one of those bastards in Congress who vote us into a war should be forced to spend a month on the battle fields that they created".

Yup, unless there is an unprovoked attack on ones country then I have always felt that war represents a complete breakdown and failure of politicians.
Since actually declaring a "war" has been out of vogue for about 20+ years.....now they are called "military actions", I believe that every time a US Soldier sets foot on foreign territory with the intent to shoot something, that every single member of any Fed level politicians family of eligible age should be sent there too. Front and ****ing center. Walking point.

You'd see some ****ing change in policy then, hugh?

Duc, the political class is merely managing their slaves.

>Gates< a quote from the Amazon book description " In a military situation, firing a weapon without proper authorization or instruction is a very serious offense, and this is drilled into the mind at the same time as the desensitization. Without this safety, there is nothing to hold back the killing instinct, and this is one of the main reasons why the homicide rate has increased so dramatically."

Every kid I grew up with who was taken hunting by his dad had this impressed on him, that pulling the trigger was serious, not to be done casually, you knew what was behind your target, and you never ever pointed at anything unless you intended to kill it.

Adam Lanza I'm sure never had these talks with his dad.

Yep. My step dad was a big time hunter/out doors guy and Vietnam combat vet - you don't TOUCH the trigger until you are ready to kill/destroy something - you SURE as **** don't go after innocent people... in H.S. (80-84) - we would all throw our shotguns in our vehicles during dove season and go hunting after school - NO ONE would EVER have thought of taking them out during school, PERIOD - you just DIDN'T do that - our dad's would have beat us to a pulp... but more importantly, the shotgun was considered a hunting tool, same as a framer looks at a hammer.

My first hunt for large animals was in the mid 80's. I took my family along to my aunt's cabin above the National Monument in Western Colorado. We hiked in about a mile from the cabin to the rock ridge running northeast above the hay fields a few hundred feet below the curving ridge.

My cousin's husband took the ridge top for a long distace (700 yards) shot into the hay field below. He pointed off to the north and told me to position myself and my two sons in a rock outcrop about two hundred yards further down the ridge.

Aspens ran across the side of the ridge in thickets and my sons and I sat on the sunny top of a large outcrop looking down across the thick aspen to the hay field below.

We sat there quietly in the sun on the October afternoon just about a half hour before the sun set to our backs. The blaze orange vests we wore melted into the red rock of the Colorado plateau country and I think we were invisible to the deer we were hunting.

After ten minutes I heard a large snap in the aspen thicket. It sounded to be twenty or thirty yards down below the rocks. Within a few seconds this magnificent Colorado Mule Deer buck stepped out into the full sun. He was beautiful, large and very healthy. His racked was wide, thick and had four points on each side not including the brow tine.

My two sons and I sat there motionless. I was the only armed person as they were on their first hunt as well and were only about 8 and 12 years old. May have been a few years older but I think I am about right. Will have to ask them.

We sat and watched the buck and I slowly brought my fathers Winchester Model 94 30-30 iron sights lever action to my shoulder. I waited until the buck turned his head to where I had a side shot and pulled the trigger.

The buck made no movement and fell dead right where he stood. Motionless. His last breath was the one the bullet stopped. Dead when he hit the ground.

My sons and I carefully made our way down and approached the large buck. I grasped his horn on the right side to try to be sure he was dead and the horn twisted sideways independent of the other rack.

While we cleaned the buck we discovered that the lead had entered the buck's right ear and disintegrated the brain destroying the skull and then exited out the tip of the buck's tongue leaving a nice perfect exit hole out the tip of the tongue.

Very little blood loss and instant death. We cleaned and packaged that animal at the cabin after we hung it for a few days to cure. I remember subsequent trips back to that cabin where many animals were hanging from trees from successful hunts.

No meat was wasted. Experiencing the death of your food gives a special quality to your appetite. You better respect what you kill.

That original hunt changed my life. Since that time I have spent very little time in the city. I skirt them as much as possible. My respect for life is deep and profound. Killing is not easy but once you do it you understand life differently.

My rights to live my way are constitutionally granted and are not subject to approval or disapproval.

One son still hunts and the other chooses not to hunt. I no longer hunt deer or elk.

But I have always been a better than average shot and remain so.

If the Sandy Hook shooting had taken place in Texas, there would be a state law requiring all licensed teachers in the state to qualify with a firearm and carry it concealed at all times before school resumed anywhere in Texas.

Remember the Luby's shooting? The victims who weren't carrying then, started carrying afterward.

This kind of psy-op would backfire in Texas, and that's why it took place in Connecticut.

But Connecticut has seen a little more death, now. They might develop a new take on it up there. These perpetrators need to recalculate, recalibrate, and retreat.

Only if they hear THE message - "a BAD man with a gun can only be stopped by a GOOD man with a gun"...
the knee jerk reaction is to remove the guns... which type is likely to comply and who will not - THAT is the bottom line.

Great post and some good thinking points - the problem is the libs will never think. they will just go with emotion.

It's funny how hollywood actors like Jeremy Renner - who went from being a bum (literally...he had like $100 USD to his name when he got his first role and it was only WHEN HE PLAYED MASS MURDERER JEFFREY ****ING DAHLMER) that he made a million and then went on to staring in violent movies like SWAT, Mission Impossible, The Hurt Locker, etc, etc.

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest....
He is guilty of lying to Americans and showing them a sanitized, dream land of violence where shooting people is quick and easy and exciting AND THEN he has the ****ing audacity to lecture American Gun Owners on weapons and the second amendment.

Hollywood – boycott all of their production. We should all stop watching their BS movies.

99% of them don't tell much of a story at all. At least not one worth paying for with 2 hours of our lives and our gun rights. We has a people have made these people multi millionaires, given them a role perceived by many as more important than God. Isn’t the Oscar nothing more than a gold ‘idol’ which the bible told us to avoid? And now with their bank accounts bulging from years of creating this world of filth, they have the audacity to lecture us and to join up with a socialist administration?

Having spent from about 8yo-to-16yo living in a rural "farm" setting, and hunting during a portion of that time as well, I have also experienced animal death on a regular basis.
Dove/Quail/Rabbits/Hare's (varmints)/Ducks/Crows (varmint)/Coyote (varmint)/gopher (field erosion) hunted/shot on a regular basis. Additionally, butchered chickens, goats, sheep, and helped with several beef cattle (that were raised from birth when they were "cute").
Was present when Dad had to put a bullet in my fallen pony's head, that was rough, and I wasn't even the one pointing and pulling the trigger.
Not all of these dispatches over the years were "clean", but you learn that you have to move past the emotion and finish the job, quickly and cleanly, for the good of everyone involved. However, at the same time, it still makes you feel bad when one goes "wrong".
Haven't been hunting in 20-years now(physical limitations), but I still go fishing regularly, and even THAT, occasionally, results in a "bad kill", so I know exactly what Gen means.

However, there have been two occasions in my life where I, unfortunately, found it necessary to "draw" on a fellow human being. One was with a 12-gauge, and the other was with a pistol (1911 Colt). Thankfully both diffused abruptly upon my presentation of defensive arms, and I never had to squeeze the trigger, but the adrenalin rush, the tingle, and the ensuing "what the ****" feeling afterward, on both occasions, left me feeling thankful that things didn't progress. Yet, at the same time, both times, I am reasonably certain that if that option were not available to me, then I wouldn't be here to type this message out today. I don't believe I would have liked myself much right now if I had been forced to go down that path to the next step, but at least I would still be here.

Killing, ANY killing, is serious business. Those that treat it as commonplace or "easy" have either no clue, or no heart.

My Father is a Vietnam War Vet, and to this day you DO NOT walk up behind him unannounced. He was a pure, unadulterated ******* when I was a kid growing up, but I'm reasonably certain that his experiences over there were the root of his issues. (I've seen, first hand, his uniform and battle flags, some call them pretty, I don't. The man went through some ****)
My Father-in-law is a Korean War Vet, and he will not even hint at, much less discuss, what he went through. He was in the Air Force (US Army Air Corps originally) and flew in a bomber. As much as he loves "planes" and Air Shows, he can't watch a war movie even now, some 50+ years later.

Modern times...
My favorite nephew made it through a tour in Iraq, came out an E-5, but with some hearing loss due to needing to use the 50-cal turret gun on a Humvee (not range practice).
Now he's over in Afghanistan, and is pretty much a target there too.
Have noticed a serious change in his demeanor, and am seriously fearful that, upon his return, he may be further irreparably changed. Killing, and the adrenaline rush as well, have forever changed him I fear.

Bottom-line:
Taking the life of an animal is not easy for a person with a conscience, and taking the life of a fellow human being SHOULD be worse. However, when push comes to shove, "us versus them", one can choose to defend themselves and make the call, or one can choose to lay down and die quietly, like a hunted animal, at the will of some other human predator.
I choose otherwise.
If my conscience has an issue with it, I'll deal with it while I'm still living and able to have those thoughts...

(Hope this all made sense. )

I've only stood down another human with arms once. Against a poacher. The entire four-county region we were hunting in was riddled with them.

Won't tell you what happened to him, other than to say that we got his shotgun, called the game warden, and turned it over to him. He was extremely grateful, said he and his counterparts had been trying to stop this for some time.