On Killing
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-12-22 14:45
by Karl Denninger
in 2ndAmendment
Ignore this thread
On Killing
 

How many of those calling for gun control have ever killed another living thing?

I mean up close and personal.  Not eating a hamburger that was in a package in the store, or grilling some chicken breasts that were all nicely-packaged in cellophane? 

And I'm not talking about smashing a mosquito, spraying a hornet's nest with wasp spray or similar or taking a shovel to a rattlesnake in the back yard either.

I mean killing something that is nominally able to process information and react to its surroundings.  Something that can process the emotion of fear.  And when I mean "you", I mean you.

You did it. 

With an implement of death that you wielded, whether it be your bare hands, a knife, a gun, or something else.

How often have you done it? 

And has it ever gone wrong?

If you've never done it, you don't know what "gone wrong" means.  If you have as a part of your life, you do, because you've experienced it.

And right about now, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

You can hunt with a gun for quite a while before something "goes wrong."  But if you've hunted for a while, you've been there.  You shoot the animal and it doesn't drop all nice and neat where it stands, like you see on the hunting TV shows or in the movies.

Uh uh.

You shoot, and the animal is hit.  But it doesn't crumple in a heap.  It runs.  It screams.  It bleeds.  It is mortally wounded, but it's not dead.  Not yet anyway.  And you have to finish the job, in one way or another.

Sometimes it's through time; by the time you get where the animal ran to, it's dead -- or close to it.  Sometimes you have to fire again, at much closer range, because as an animal that knows death is knocking it's too dangerous to get close enough to use a knife or other implement to finish the job.  And once in a while the really dreadful thing happens and you don't find your quarry, but you know that you mortally wounded it and that it will die a horrible, painful death.

There's still a certain detachment though about using a gun. Even a BB gun in the back yard shooting a squirrel.  It's a distance thing.  Yes, you see the results, but the act still takes place at a distance.

You've seen the movies with swordfights and spears, right?  People get impaled or sliced open and they die, but they die pretty quickly and usually with a grunt, a groan or sometimes that look of shock as the spear pierces their body.  Same thing with guns in the movies; people get shot and they die, usually crumpling where they stand, blasted backward through doors or windows (which incidentally doesn't really happen when you get shot), or once again with that odd look of shock on their face as the bullet pierces their body.  Ditto in video games, although the violence is often more-graphic and you can sometimes watch someone's head explode (which again, with rare exception, doesn't really happen either.)

That's that movies folks.  It's fake, like everything else on the silver screen.

Let me tell you how it really is, from the perspective of someone who has done quite a bit of hunting.

But most of my hunting, certainly in terms of number of things I've killed, has been conducted underwater.

With a speargun.

A speargun is a uniquely personal way to kill something.  The spear is attached to the gun by a thick nylon line, sort of like a fishing line but much more sturdy.  But the line is only about 15' long, and the spear another 4' or so.  The entire contraption is powered by big rubber bands.  The bands are loops of surgical tubing with a cord or metal hoop in the center that loops over a "fin" on the spear to provide propulsion.  The maximum range of this Rube Goldberg-style contraption is about 20', but the spear is heavy and very sharp, and it easily penetrates whatever it hits, provided it's alive.

You would think with such a short range that killing would be easy and efficient. 

You'd be wrong.

It's surprisingly easy to miss underwater.  If you don't actually aim you will miss.

But if you spearfish you are forced to deal with the personal nature of death very quickly.  Spearfishermen talk about "stoning" a fish -- you shoot it in the brain or the base of the spine and it dies instantly.  That's the preferred way to kill, incidentally -- quickly, quietly, and painlessly. It's how we imagine that all the food we put on the table ends up there.  When you fish with a hook and line your quarry, if it's small enough, is netted and ultimately suffocates when removed from the water.

When you hunt underwater, however, death rarely happens all nice, neat and easy.

See, a fish has a tiny little brain and an even tinier junction between the brain and spinal cord.  And if you hit the fish anywhere else, it will eventually die -- but it won't die instantly.

And while it's in the process of dying, which is a messy, bloody thrashing affair, it attracts other things that are very interested in anything that's dying underwater, and would very much like to finish the job and consume what's left.  They tend to be a bit indiscriminate about what they bite from time to time as well.  We call those things sharks, and they have a unique capability to detect the wild and uncoordinated electrical thrashing that muscles make in a mortally-injured animal.  It's like ringing the dinner bell to them.

So when you shoot a fish, and it doesn't die right away, you don't have the luxury of letting it expire on its own, nor does it happen some distance away.  You're acutely aware that you have mortally injured an animal as the dark-colored blood fills the water (incidentally, it looks greenish-blue underwater at any sort of depth, not red) and the mad spasm of the fish, along with its wildly-looking eyes, are literally "in your face."

And in order to avoid becoming an inadvertent meal for the shark who you just called to the dinner table you now must take your quite-large and sharp knife, which you carry for this exact reason, and efficiently finish the job you started.

You must reach and immobilize the animal you just injured and which is now attached to your gun by the spear and line, with one hand, and with the other you must administer the final blow that causes death. You must use your knife and drive it into the fish's brain, killing it.  Having caused great suffering as the animal you shot did not immediately expire, you must end that suffering.  You must do it not only because you wish to eat that animal but because if you do not the odds rise substantially that you will be the one who is eaten.

You do not see this in the movies about spearfishing on TV.  There the spearfisherman always kills his quarry without much of a fight, just as happens when you see someone hunt a deer on TV.  You never see a TV show where a deer cries in agony because it has been shot but is not dead, just as you never see someone spearfishing that mortally wounds a fish but it does not die and wildly thrashes at the end of the spear while the fisherman climbs the line, hand-over-hand, with knife at the ready and when he reaches the fish he grabs it beneath the gillplates with a gloved hand and uses his knife to scramble its brain.

But that is the reality of death when one hunts.  It is the reality of death in general.  It is the grisly reality of the circle of life; the lion does not instantly kill its quarry, it usually first bites at the legs or other part of the body and knocks it down, seriously injuring it.  Then, and only then, does it get to strike at the jugular and finish the job.

We wonder why people burst into schools and start shooting.  Oh yes, they are all crazy, but there is something very sobering about taking life the way it really happens.  We, as mankind, used to all know this, because we all in some form or fashion participated in it.  If we lived on a farm we were very careful about how we killed that chicken or other animal for dinner, because we knew.  We had seen it go wrong.  We had hunted for depredation purposes to keep the coyotes and other wild animals off our domesticated animals and crops.  We had killed where killing had gone bad and it wasn't neat and pretty like they show on TV -- or in video games.  So when we killed that chicken for dinner we tried to do it gracefully.  But even then it occasionally went wrong.

Bless us oh Lord these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord.  Amen.

Ever wonder why Christians sometimes pray over their food before they eat it?  Many Christians don't know why.  They think it's simply a tribute to God.  Not so fast, grasshopper.  It's also homage to the fact that you did what you had to do and sometimes it goes wrong; that life was taken and sometimes it's taken in an ugly, screaming, messy way.

Today we claim to be "civilized", but what we really are is desensitized.  It's not that we play violent video games and watch movies and TV shows where people die.  People die all the time; it happens literally on a daily basis.

No, the reality is that the majority of our young people no longer live in a world where they have faced the reality of killing as it actually happens, whether by nature or through someone's hand.  They don't have that imprint of a deer that is shot and doesn't crumple into the snow; instead it cries as it bleeds.  They have never shot a fish with a spear, not had it die immediately, and then with it wildly trying to escape grabbed ahold of it in the gillplate and driven the knife right into its skull, turning its brain into scrambled eggs.  They have never killed a chicken for dinner and instead of it being all neat and tidy had it escape from their hands in the process and become a bloody, nasty mess.  They've never had a coyote come into their chicken coop and kill one of their chickens, finding only feathers and the obvious signs of a struggle to the death, or shot one that was trying to get in and then had to shoot it again because the first shot stopped it -- but it didn't die right away and was screaming in pain.

We don't undertake war the way we used to.  We used to go to war with spears and swords, and killing was a uniquely savage thing.  Most of the people who died didn't die right away.  They screamed.  They bled.  They writhed on the ground.  If they were fortunate someone finished the job -- today we call that murder, but then we had no way to fix a serious abdominal wound that was certain to fester and kill -- slowly and very painfully.

Now we have a guy who sits in a trailer piloting a drone from 500 miles away.  He pushes a button and a bad guy dies.  Then, when people rush in to try to salvage the dying but not yet dead, he pushes the button again and innocents die.  Children.  Women.  Those who were not fighting.  We now shoot at the equivalent of the medics in WWII and call this "justified"! 

Barack Obama has personally ordered exactly this sequence dozens of times.  The first death may have been of a legitimate terrorist who was going to kill innocent people.  What about the second, an act that in earlier wars would have subjected you to prosecution as a war criminal?

Where is the outrage?  Where is the horror? 

Where is the reality in facing how we kill and how things die?

Our problem isn't that we have too much violence on TV and in video games.  It's that we don't have enough real violence.  We instead have sterilized violence, where people die quietly if graphically.  Where our food is wrapped in cellophane at the store.  Where we go to the bar and order up a dozen chicken wings -- and we ignore the fact that six chickens died to produce those twelve little winglet drumsticks! 

I understand death.  I've dealt death from my hands.  It's messy.  It's nasty.  But it's how life progresses.  I eat because I kill, and whether I do it directly with my hands, with tools in my hands, or whether I pay someone else to do it and wrap it up nicely for me at the meat counter, the fact of the matter is that I kill. 

You kill.

We all kill.

But we have intentionally removed from our consciousness all of the ugly that inherently comes with killing.  And at the same time we have removed our understanding and respect for the fierce desire of that which is alive to remain alive. 

We are now so depraved that we have calls in the media and political offices to cower in the corner and die when under lethal assault rather than assert our right to life and do whatever we're able, with whatever tools we can muster, to stop that assault.  We nod our heads instead of erecting the middle finger at all who suggest such rabid stupidity.

We talk about "gun control" as if that will stop killing.  It will not.  It will simply allow more killing to take place. Consider that if deer knew how to use rifles we would probably not hunt them.  They know their piece of forest better than we do.  We go into the forest for a few weeks to scout and then to shoot.  They live there all year.  Who's going to ambush who if they had rifles as well? 

This is in reality about predators and prey.  We are all predators whether we like it or not.  It is our humanity that changes the simple "can I get away with killing this or might it injure or kill me" equation that is balanced every day in the woods among animals or the sea into something more-complex.  The lion does not care if the gazelle suffers as it dies; it is only concerned with the possibility of being injured while killing the gazelle, or not eating at all.

We, on the other hand, do care.  And part, but not all, of why we care is that historically we had to go kill ourselves in order to live.  We saw the animal that we ate die, and most of the time it did not do so very gracefully.  Even today, with all our tools and technology, when we go into the field or under the water to hunt, a good part of the time that animal does not die gracefully.  We are inhibited in slaughter because we're human and for us it is more than simply about something to eat.  We're selective beyond that of a lion, who will take anything weaker than it, because we feel beyond the simple emotion of pain.

We, the people, have done our level damn best to remove this from our children and ourselves.  We're wrong to do so.  This is inherently part of what makes us human, and this experience is part of our humanity.  It must remain part of our humanity.

But for those who have not developed this reaction and inhibition, because we have so expertly shielded them from it with our chicken in cellophane, our bacon in a nice, neat package and our depiction of death in our media all neat, nice and without the suffering that usually accompanies people and things expiring (even if the blood splatters a lot), and then those people were unfortunate enough to suffer from a mental disorder or we drugged away the natural and normal emotional processes that keep our predation to animals, fruits, nuts and vegetables, we must recognize that there still remains in that deep animal mind we all possess, no matter how mentally ill, one final check and balance.

The coyote does not attack the lion, no matter how hungry he is, because he knows he will lose.  He instead looks for something without those sharp teeth and claws, even if he is ravenously hungry.

In short we would not hunt deer if they could use a rifle to defend themselves from us.

And sickos would not hunt us if they believed we were armed -- whether we actually are or not.

Now you have something new to think about.

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Dcsleeper
Posts: 7
Incept: 2012-10-11

Northern VA
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YES!!

It make me think of that internet pic of the free zone sign, or an imaginary "armed teachers" sign.

I think it would be best for the level of armament in a public place, to be a secret.

Fear of the unknown but possibly armed populace, for the crazies to have to pause and think about.
Andysvw
Posts: 1703
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Green
Tujunga Ca
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Dam good. What if they cant tell who the week ones are?
Cobra2411
Posts: 10335
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Philly P.a.
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One of the harder things I had to do was kill a few baby rabbits. My dogs dug up a nest of them and decided after chomping on them a few times they weren't interested. I can still recall the shrieking they did... Haunting. So I did what I had to and ended their pain.

I have a friend who came upon a deer in the road that had been hit by a car. With two broken legs it was thrashing about screaming as a small group of people looked on. My friend took out his gun and put one in the deer's head and ended it. He said the people looked at him in utter disgust. Later a cop threatened to cite him for unlawful hunting or something like that.

We've turned into a nation of pussies...

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To err is human. To really **** things up takes government.
Gamma
Posts: 5546
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Gold
Northern CA
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Brilliant ticker, Karl.

However, I suspect the uber-informed rejoinder will be: "Hey if the guy is depraved and crazy enough to shoot his Mom and and then go wipe out 2 dozen people, including children, then he's likewise incapable of performing the "them or me" calculus the coyote does when contemplating attacking the lion.

You know you wouldn't get away with "well, if it only works once..."

Yet it IS math. If a few of these events can be avoided by having concealed arms sprinkled out there, unbeknownst to potential shooters, not only might SOME of those near-crazies stop and think before they actualize crazy, but indeed, some of these miscreants might be constructively dropped in the act. Not that we would profile nor otherwise impugn the rights of any such misunderstood person.

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This stuff we're going through, this is nothing compared to the Middle Ages.
They told me if I voted for John McCain, an idiot would be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Sure enough...
Wis/min
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On the border
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Having owned a small hobby farm killing of a living animal is part of the deal.

Whether it be chickens, turkeys, pigs or beef it is something that has to be done but is very up close and personal.

I had a pig kill go badly once. That was a tough one.
Custodialmoney
Posts: 395
Incept: 2009-09-19
Green
The 'invisible hand' is in your pocket.
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I do not understand why everyone only focuses on the "public health" angle for firearms ownership. John Lott's books make the statistical case about arms in the streets better then I ever could. However it seems to me that there is a whole other approach to this discussion based on "rights".

If we claim to be interested in preserving civil rights we should treat them all equally. We do not hear about "reasonable compromise" to the "black problem". Though there is plenty of evidence that black people are a danger to themselves and to others (statistically speaking they are involved in more violence then members of other groups). There is no discussion of "reasonable restriction of their rights" for the "good of the community". If people can negotiate away gun rights on the basis of statistical evidence, aren't other rights subject to the same reasoning?

The first amendment is about "free speech" but I have always understood it to be about dangerous speech in particular about discussions of constitutional changes and even rallying for an insurrection. MY understanding is that speech is protected up until the moment of active insurrection. Is this not dangerous? IS this not a threat to the community who could be avoid the danger by limiting the speech if it insights violence?

What I am arguing here is that by their nature, "rights" are "dangerous" (to society and to the current government) if they were not dangerous it would not be so tempting for government to wish to take them away, and we would not need to have them documented.

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And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay / Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare / The lone and level sands stretch far away. -- Percy Bysshe Shelley
Pika-steph
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smiley

Thanks for this.

Really.

Ever wonder why hunters often are the biggest animal lovers? It's not because they're hypocrites.

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Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/
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"The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli

Iamedwardteach
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"And sickos would not hunt us if they believed we were armed -- whether we actually are or not."smiley

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"FACT: WHEN THE DRAFT OF YOUR VESSEL EXCEEDS THE DEPTH OF THE WATER, YOU ARE MOST ASSUREDLY... AGROUND!"
Mannfm11
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My experience is mostly hunting birds. Once, when I was a kid, I brought a wounded dove home. My dad made me take him out back and pull his head off. That was the one thing I didn't like about hunting birds. The wounded rabbits where also not nice to kill, but I won't forget the dove.

I studied some of the works of Fritz Perls. His thesis was called Ego, Hunger and Agression. In his last works, he wrote about how we have left the killing to others, like governments and packing houses, but carry our agression out in our heads or in horror movies or in video games as is the current craze.

As far as the crazy in CT. I think I can connect the dots from the small amount I have read. Mother is going to commit him, so she doesn't love him. If she didn't love those kids more than him, he would be okay. Kills Mom. Goes after kids because it was they that caused the whole matter. Kills kids, then realizing what he did, has no one to kill but himself. It was specifically those kids that was his problem. The crazies on the news want to point out he had enough ammo to kill the whole school. The progression wasn't the whole school. When the first graders were gone, the only culprit left was himself. He was out of mental excuses. The passed buck ended up right at home.

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Onelegged
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NW Colorado
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In early November I had to put down a 300 pound wounded elk calf on the side of the road. It had been hit by a vehicle as evidenced by the broken headlight glass on the pavement. One of its shoulders was destroyed (elk or anything else in the deer family do not have ball and socket joints at their front shoulders). I dispatched the animal with a single shot from my Glock to the head from a range of 12 feet while it stood and looked me in the eyes. After the shot there was a great deal of writhing and shaking and twitching, but not for more than 30 seconds or so.

It was my duty to put that animal out of its misery. It was my good deed for the year.

I believe Karl is entirely correct in his article above.

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The light at the end of this tunnel is a train.
Ribbit
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I had a right rant about the appalling cruelty inflicted on wildlife by the 'animal rights' types, but it vanished in a redirect or something and maybe just as well.

The unspeakably cruel bastards even want to ban lead ammunition! They are working their butts off to get it banned, despite ZERO evidence of problems in Centuries (there is no signal to measure over the noise, even in known heavily contaminated lead sites, over natural background levels, which speaks chapter and verse about its stability in the environment, so all their 'studies' are filled with nothing but assumptions, presumptions, and agenda) and ALREADY proven problems with the substitutes, AND a significant reduction in humane kills! FFS you can't make such insanity up. :-(

The best bullets, the best powders, the best primers, the best dies, you name it, for the best load development, because they DESERVE it, along with the best possible shot I can make, and it is the best possible shot because it is HUMANE!

Did I mention how cruel these unspeakable bastards are?

They really are cruel bastards.

PS. I had to get a sticker put onto my license, to enable me to carry out the humane destruction of animals, such as the frequent road injuries I came across at early hours of the morning. Without that sticker, the RSPCA (the so called Royal Society for the Prevention of CRUELTY to Animals), expected me to stay with a seriously injured and suffering animal, for however long it took (even in excess of an hour), for one of their people to get to the scene and 'humanely' put it down. Yet suddenly everything was fine somehow, once I had a silly little sticker on a license.

If I did it without that sticker, I could go to jail and have a very heavy fine. You BET! I put those poor animals out of their misery, but I dared NOT use a gun, or it would be traceable to me without that damned sticker! Which is why my knife is sharp enough to shave with (and now, I can potentially go to jail for having the knife).

Did I mention how cruel these insane bastards really are?

One legged:"It was my duty to put that animal out of its misery. It was my good deed for the year."

Amen.

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If the State was a Nanny, it would have been fired for incompetence, unreliability, and having its hands in the till, a very long time ago now.

Turps
Posts: 2
Incept: 2009-07-08

Houston
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My goodness, I thought I was alone in thinking this way.
Kochevnik
Posts: 547
Incept: 2007-07-30
Green
Dallas TX
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Check the chart out :

from here :

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/heres-th....

The truth is far different than what the media and the govt wants to portray.

And I've had that gone wrong thing - the very first thing I ever killed - a daughter's dog the neighbor dad ran over - he was a super nice guy, didnt own any guns so he came to get me, as a teenager, who he barely knew to kill his wounded dog. I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do and I knew this guy couldnt do it. All I can say is it was nothing like I expected and you can shoot a dog 8 or 9 times and they still keep twitching and moving around.
Inline

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There are decades where nothing happens - and there are weeks where decades happen.

-- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Howardnyc
Posts: 132
Incept: 2007-11-01
Gold
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wonderful, karl.

i am not a hunter, and killing little fish with a hook and line is rarely messy nor dramatic.

but one of the humbling and valuable experiences that is integral to becoming a physician is becoming familiar with human death. even dermatologists and other specialists who can spend their entire career post-training without encountering death, as a student, intern and resident you cannot avoid at least some exposure to death.

these experiences are processed by students and doctors-in-training in very different ways, which has been fascinating to observe over the years.

but i will speak no further (in this particular post) about the experiences of other people, just my own.

my experiences with death in the course of my training and practice have been profound and set me apart from the mainstream of americans, in shaping my humanity. i see similarities with the way i face and realize how things are killed, and how they die.

i cite my personal experiences with death in the medical context only to name another path toward reality in appreciating killing, murder and death; a different path toward the same sets of truths described here by Karl than a soldier, a hunter, a farmer/rancher or an eyewitness to a massacre takes to a similar understanding.

but, as you state, the vast majority of our fellow citizens are quite comfortable in their denial/ignorance/removal of this essential aspect of human experience. even to the point of cheering a particular action related to death and defense when practiced or advocated by one party, and being outraged by the exact same action promoted by the other party.

(i'm talking drone killings on the authority of bush/obama; or, posting armed guards in schools, advocated this week by both the NRA spokesperson and senator Barbara Boxer; two examples that leap to mind.)

as for your last point; i suck at bluffing. anyone who has played poker with me has been rewarded by this fact. i'm the worst. so i rarely do it. and i never bluff when it comes to death and defense.


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kd told me (and i believe him) that
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Hognutz
Posts: 45
Incept: 2010-09-04

S.C.
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I have killed a lot of animals for food starting as a young boy. Deer,hogs,chickens,squirels,etc,etc. I tends to give one a sober outlook on life.

The worst is having to put down a long time best buddy. (horse,dog,cat)
Landshark
Posts: 11233
Incept: 2008-02-07
Silver
The Wild West
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I've only had one kill go badly, thank God, and that was a wild hog... and he was one mean son of a bitch, so I really don't feel that bad about it, lol.

I've always taken the killing of an animal quite seriously, as I'm primarily a meat hunter.

One of my favorite paintings:




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Success in life is a matter not so much of talent and opportunity as of concentration and perseverance.

– C. W. Wendte
Gates
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Scottsdale
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Karl - yep. Land - Amen, do it ethically or don't do it. People that eat what they hunt and kill have a deep respect for the animals - at least the people I hunt with do.

Landshark
Posts: 11233
Incept: 2008-02-07
Silver
The Wild West
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Truth, Gates. I had a BIL take a very stupid shot on a running fawn, and it ended very badly for that animal. I gave him hell. He broke out the "God put these creatures here for our enjoyment" BS. I never hunted with him again.

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Success in life is a matter not so much of talent and opportunity as of concentration and perseverance.

– C. W. Wendte
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1224
Incept: 2011-04-14

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Quote:
If you've never done it, you don't know what "gone wrong" means. If you have as a part of your life, you do, because you've experienced it.

And right about now, you know exactly what I'm talking about.


Have you ever been in Africa on a buffalo hunt when it started to go bad? Have you ever heard your PH say "my gun has misfired" and suddenly realized you had to be extra deadly with yours? Have you?

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1224
Incept: 2011-04-14

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Am I the only person on this planet who thinks these mass drone killings will eventually bite us in the ass? We are killing so many of their children I bet they dream of getting to kill ours. Hell they probably cheered the school shooting.

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Br-549
Posts: 24
Incept: 2010-09-10
Green A True American Patriot!
On the back 60
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Gen:

A very insightful post indeed. I was reared in a rural area and as a result often "ate what we killed"; whether wild or domestic. After years of a "professional" life have returned to my roots. I am amazed at the number of people I know that think nothing of dropping big bucks at a trendy restaurant for a rabbit dish but are horrified that I have rabbits as a protein source. It all comes down to deniability. On the menu someone else tends to the distasteful killing part of the equation.

Spent many years in various court rooms. Handled more than my share of death penalty cases. Even the most ardent supporters of capital punishment will tremble when asked "would you throw the switch, drop the tablet, or push the needle?" Is fine in the abstract, when some faceless arm of the "state" will do the killing, but if it becomes personal then somehow most seem to not have the sense of personal responsibility to do it themselves.

As a society we have lost the ability to accept any personal responsibility. Whether it is for our personal safety or the execution of one who has, at least in my mind, forfeited all right to walk this earth. A sad affair indeed.

As for me, I accept responsibility for myself and my acts. Just want the government to get out of my life.
Dazedncornfused
Posts: 310
Incept: 2010-10-13
Green
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>It all comes down to deniability<

Ain't it the truth. Neighbor is hosting an exchange student from Germany. Church hosts a community meal on Thanksgiving, we pressed the kid into service to help get 5 dozen turkeys from store wrappings into oven bags into pans onto the baking racks.

He was totally grossed out and spent part of the day barfing! This is a 19 yr old who loves our fried chicken and prepared a wiener schnitzel dinner for the group. Hey kid you think meat grows on trees? He'll help prep the Christmas meal tomorrow, should be fun.

His host has chickens, he likes the eggs. Maybe he'll see first hand our expression "run around like a headless chicken?"

Some people are so naive.

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Stand up and be counted or line up and be numbered.
Sparkylab
Posts: 521
Incept: 2008-04-03
Green
Pacific Northwest
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Good post Gen.

I continue to believe that unless you are willing and able to personally end an animals life, and process the carcass, (and do so regularly), then you have no moral right to eat meat. Period.

I came to this conclusion as a teenager. I also came to the conclusion that I was unable to take an animal's life in this manner. That was 22 years ago, and have not eaten meat or fish since.

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'The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.' -Winston Churchill

'Audit the bastards.' - Richard Russell
Johnny
Posts: 1583
Incept: 2008-10-01
Silver
Kentucky
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And some people just get sick.

I've seen it. I have a friend who can't clean a deer or any animal for that matter. He just gets sick. If you go hunting or fishing with him you're going to end up cleaning everything but he's going to give you half of his.

He can't even make hamburgers...

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