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| Another Voice: Health Spending Control in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Curious1
Posts: 441
Incept: 2008-03-22
Oregon
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A radiation facility came to our small western city of 180,000. That is an outfit that would go into a Urology practice and build a vault and install a radiation machine. The ads focused to urologists focused on improving income. Cost to society went up 600%, frequency of prostate cancer went up something like 15%....it was in the Wall Street Journal a year or so ago.
IMRT is better than the old 2d/3d conformal therapy. It is an advancement but should be 2x as much, not 10-20x as you say.
Many Urology centers around the country are also putting in "bone health" centers and giving Xgeva every 30 days AND giving Provenge out the wazoo.
Karl, google those two in terms of cost and prepare for some chest pain. You should get some nitroglycerin before you do so. Many many large urology practices around the country are doing this.
Google "LUGPA". That is a group of practices that help push this and lobby. This really is a bad case of "asset stripping" by these practices (they strip-mine society of $$ that could go elsewhere) done in the name of "quality".
Why medicare doesn't act like an insurance company and bargain is beyond me. Typically their answer is just to cut reimbursement but that is slow. Unfortunately the ONLY thing they cut is "E&M" which is what a doctor should do...sit down and counsel a patient on options. That gets cut while everything is gets overpaid.
The outrageous stupidity of CMS is expensive and shocking.
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Jander
Posts: 114
Incept: 2009-06-15
Atlanta
Online
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'another voice' perhaps, but that cat has definitely read some tickers :)
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"Go perform an anatomically impossible act" -KD
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1195
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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Nice article but sorely misses the point. If patients had to actually pay out of pocket for these therapies the price would come down dramatically. For example, is there any possible reason a generic drug presciption should cost more than an iphone for a years usage. A single small molecule chemical entity with a filler compressed into a tablet costs more than a state of art communications device where you can send email, take a phone call, watch a movie, get directions (if you install Google maps), play a couple 1000 games, take pictures and store a couple gigs of data. I'll call bull****.
Healthcare is the biggest employer in the country. Medicare is nothing more than a wealth transfer mechanism at this point.
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 632
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Crzymorse you mean brand drug, right? Or you are using the term generic to mean a general type of drug? Compressed tablets are the cheapest form to make.
I don't think the point of this piece was to promote the fix, but to focus on the obvious, which is not obvious to a general audience.
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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Krzelune
Posts: 5513
Incept: 2007-10-08
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The desire of millions, the inconvenience of millions, the suffering of millions, the death of millions, does not concern them because of the evolutionary humanist lens they peer through.
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Curious1
Posts: 441
Incept: 2008-03-22
Oregon
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crzymorse you make some good points. Everyone should have a "copay" on everything...and it should be percentage based. Make the customer bear some burden. We can but should not argue the specifics of how and what numbers/percentages...but the general point of making someone pay something out of their pocket at the point of service is a good idea.
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Donethat
Posts: 771
Incept: 2009-04-22
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Could not agree more until this MD drove off the cliff... "colon cancer is almost fully preventable with screening tests that cost a few hundred dollars."
I haven't found any justification for this claim. A colonoscopy costs a few hundred dollars? Maybe he gets his in Mexico. Depending on blood tests and sigmoidoscopyis wont catch non bleeders further up the I tract.
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 632
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Donethat he is PhD not MD, but it depends on the test. ACS guidelines for colon cancer screening were amended in 2012. You are right about colonoscopy costs being higher. Take a look, current: Tests that find polyps and cancerFlexible sigmoidoscopy every 5 years, or Colonoscopy every 10 years, or Double-contrast barium enema every 5 years, or CT colonography (virtual colonoscopy) every 5 years Tests that primarily find cancerYearly fecal occult blood test (gFOBT) or Yearly fecal immunochemical test (FIT) every year, or Stool DNA test (sDNA) If you link to the guidelines below you find that the tests that cost much less (2nd group), if positive, would lead to a more expensive colonoscopy. The guidelines are not specific on which test each person takes, b/c it depends on the risk factors, but bottom line is that for many you do not need to go straight to the colonoscopy. They say that the top procedures that detect both cancer and polyps are preferred if "available" to you but the value in that is debatable. http://www.cancer.org/healthy/findcancer....
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1195
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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No DrK,
Some of the generic off patent small molecule drugs are more expensive than a iPhone. Just look at the co-pay for generics with health insurance, $15 per 30 day supply, that's $180 bucks. Some generics without health insurance run much higher.
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 632
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Oh yeah, sorry, I tend to think in 30d supply, what about Lovenox generic. $$$$
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 632
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Donethat To add something on colonoscopy Too bad we can't do a simple surveymonkey of the ticker folks, most of whom are male, and ask if they had a colonoscopy on schedule, and if they did, did they go back for the next one, on schedule. Most would say no to one of the above. It's not pleasant.
If something is not working, per the recommendation, then you need to to question the recommendation even if, objectively, it is the "best" procedure--because it's not the best if many don't get it done.
A couple of years ago they changed the recommendation for prostate cancer screening because this screening is a reason why many men do not go to annual doctor check-ups: Most men do not like to have another guy put a gloved hand up their butt. (At least when doing a prostate exam.) In consideration of this fact, the guidelines now recommend this screening (which is done with a blood test for PSA) be done only in high risk men (primarily black males and those with first degree family Hx of prostate cancer.)
Not that the test is not useful, but if it keeps you out of the doctor's office, it may keep you from finding out you are about to have a heart attack or stroke--and maybe you better do something about that--so they changed the recommendation.
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
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Yeah, the medical system is so screwed up. And docs perform tests on patients that aren't even justified based on malpractice defensive action. Tests that generally aren't performed unless the patients are symptomatic of certain pathologies. It's only a way to pad the bottom line. Nothing to do with defensive medicine. Defensive medicine does exist. No doubt. But some tests are merely for the added revenue and referral.
Most prostate cancers are very slow growing to be monitored by PSA tests and periodical biopsies. I'd venture to guess that most prostasectomies are done after age 70. Certainly not all. But most. And let's be honest. How many men need their prostate gland after age 70? IMRT (based on cost) is pretty much absurd for most patients it would seem to me. Now, if the cancer has advanced and has impacted bone or other tissue - that may be a completely different story. But normally those who have prostate cancer that was detected in advance of late stage or elevated Gleason scores can be monitored safely under 'active surveillance' (for younger folks) or 'watchful waiting' for older folks. And with robotic prostasectomies these days - the precision and accuracy of these procedures under skilled practiced hands are quite, quite remarkable.
Like any other business, the medical arena will take in as much revenue as they are capable of generating, and if that comes with the assistance of government manipulation - no one I know of in that particular enterprise will complain.
The problem must be fixed if we are to survive as a nation.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Curious1
Posts: 441
Incept: 2008-03-22
Oregon
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In towns with a Urology owned radiation machine they run TV ads saying you should get screened starting at age 40 and it should be done YEARLY with a PSA and finger exam. They create a "panic" and then profit from it. Sick.
As for a colonoscopy, the "price" is a a few thousand bucks. The cost is about $10 of IV sedation, $10 of cleaning solution, use of the scope, a bed in a room, and the docs time. A scope might be 10-20k but you can get thousands of procedures done on one before it breaks...so the cost is negligible.
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Susanjbear
Posts: 417
Incept: 2010-06-10
Salt Lake City, Utah
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Susan
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
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I wonder what percent of breast cancer is originally detected via mammography?
I bet as the money runs out that the talking heads make a case to discontinue routine use of those too without extenuating and suspicious concerns or an alarming family history.
But it's darn hard politically to pull a fast one on the female gender. Men roll over. But not the ladies! :^)
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Mrbill
Posts: 7857
Incept: 2008-10-19
North Carolina
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Um. The "fast one" was getting people to start getting regular mammograms. http://www.thennt.com/screening-mammogra....Quote:The theoretic basis for the intervention is sound. It is presumed that therapeutic intervention at a point when cancer is visible on a mammogram but not yet palpable in the breast will, for a small number, result in earlier, ultimately life-saving, therapy. Overall mortality rate, however, was not improved in the groups in these studies assigned to receive regular mammograms.
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
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The "fast one" that I was referring to is taking something away from someone after you give it to them, even if someone else is paying for it.
Just needed to clarify.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Curious1
Posts: 441
Incept: 2008-03-22
Oregon
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Donethat
Posts: 771
Incept: 2009-04-22
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DrK, thanks, I would like to see the cost benefit analysis, but the MDs and practices are in business to make money, not turn away Insurance and Medicare dollars.
The colonoscopy clinics seem about as bad as these urologist treatment centers. Ooops there was a polyp, better come back in 3 years, oh next guy, you are good to go for 10 years. How many should a wise man get in his life? Two, three, four? When the over 65s are on Medicare's dime? Same for the mammograms and biopsies. Oh we find 5 percent, or is it 20 percent of the biopsies to be malignant. Yah, sure fellow. Lets round one of those x-rays up per year. Too bad they had a high error rate on all those pap smears.
And while we are at it, put this IUD in you and see if you are still fertile in 5 years.
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Drkshapiro
Posts: 632
Incept: 2012-09-12
Southern CA
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Donethat agreed The guidelines are sometimes geared to drive profits so just B/C it says guideline doesn't necc mean it is correct, as Susan points out. You are always supposed to prescribe to the guideline or else you're a dickhead...that's the mantra. Hey Noodleman! There is mail on this site--take a look.
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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
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Doctors are no different from everyone else.
Some will prescribe your product for a steak dinner and evening of entertainment.
And if you pay them a speaker's honoraria not only will they prescribe it, they will tell others to do the same.
On the other hand, some will eat the steak and watch the entertainment and not prescribe your product. But they are generally in the minority.
Such is life.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Rickl
Posts: 1226
Incept: 2009-03-08
Pennsylvania
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Drkshapiro wrote..Too bad we can't do a simple surveymonkey of the ticker folks, most of whom are male, and ask if they had a colonoscopy on schedule, and if they did, did they go back for the next one, on schedule. Most would say no to one of the above. It's not pleasant. I had my first colonoscopy done when I was 47. I had noticed occasional bleeding during bowel movements, and my primary physician referred me for a colonoscopy. The doctor found a couple of polyps and removed them. He told me to come back in five years, and I did. This time he found almost a dozen, and a couple of them were fairly large. He told me to come back in two years. I did, and he found a few more. He said to come back in three years, and that is where it stands now. Clearly I have some sort of predisposition towards developing polyps. The procedure itself is not uncomfortable, since it's done under general anesthetic. The worst part is the prep and dietary restrictions the day before. This last time it didn't bother me too much. I guess I'm getting used to it. The funny part is that now I rarely have any bleeding, compared to the time before the first one.
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We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror. ~ Ann Barnhardt
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
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Since I didn't have a history of intestinal cancer in my family the doc sent me in for a sigmoidoscopy. We never really hit it off from the start and maybe he didn't like my insurance or something. If you're a male who swings the bat right handed it ain't something that you would enjoy. Trust me on that. Fully awake during the procedure. Just local anesthesia that didn't do **** as far as I could tell to abate the discomfort. And I had to go through the same drill the day before as a colonoscopy patient - drink like 5 gallons of water with a special solution that made me crap like a Christmas goose. The technician (no medical doc) told me that she (yeah, a female to add insult to injury) told me not to worry. It was a painless procedure that would be over with in a matter of 10-15 minutes. The fact that she looked like Nurse Rachet didn't help my anxiety a bit. After assuming the position she told me she was going in. I don't know what she hit at first but I damned near flew off the table. The rest of it wasn't as bad as I expected. She blew in my ear a couple times and that helped (just jokin'). After about 12-15 minutes she came to the end of the road and I felt like my guts were being stabbed with an ice pick. She told me that she was able to go in far enough so I wouldn't need a follow-up colonoscopy. And if I had a damn tail I would have wagged it right there on the table. Afterwards she actually showed me a video replay of her going up chocolate alley. It was actually pretty cool. Like one of those medical shows "I am Joe's a-hole" shown on PBS. She told me that she didn't see anything suspicious but that a medical doc would view it to make sure nothing was wrong. That must be a fun job to go to on Monday morning. Never got a follow up call so I guess everyting turned out fine. She told me that she would see me in 5 years (3 years ago). I asked her if the next time she expected em to bring a dozen roses. But trust me. That's one appointment I would never ever honor. Only if they put me under first. Otherwise I think I'd rather die of colon cancer. Oh, btw, she told me that although they can only examine the lower intestinal tract with the Sigmoid that 75% of colon cancer occurs in that portion of the intestine. So if there's something in there chances are good they'll find it.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Grashopa
Posts: 2624
Incept: 2009-02-03
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Quote: Clearly I have some sort of predisposition towards developing polyps.
Or he is lying. Get the tapes. I was lied to, and the patient isn't paying so you aren't really stealing from him are you?
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Theft is evil
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